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On July 23 2014 06:16 Alaric wrote:
Uh, just because Ahri can't one-shot the wave doesn't mean her wave clear is off. Oo If anything, more champions should be like that (at least they're working on it for Gragas)!
She's also pretty good at pushing pre-6 / grail for her opponent.
12% max hp on hit on a 6 second cd >nice
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Actually if the PBE goes through it'll be 4 seconds. He also sustain betters than Mundo atm (his passive is 0.5% max HP per second, Mundo's is 0.3%, since Gragas' W is on a shorter cd with no cost it's as free as Mundo's), and can one-shot waves by letting his Q ferment (when fully "fermented" it actually deals more damage than pre-changes).
He also packs a ranged slow, a spammable knock-back/stun, and a ranged AoE directional knock-back.
On July 23 2014 06:29 ghrur wrote:
Alaric, you ARE whining, and you have every right to. In the Shikyo memorial thread. All you're saying is "Tanks die too fast. That's a problem. I don't like it." Well, great, Riot will definitely see you now and change everything.
You're wrong about what I assume too. See, I don't assume that you want to be the ADC or that you're going to praise the state of the game right now. I assume that you're bad at this game, just like I am, and that you're whining. My problem that is you literally bring nothing to the table. You don't criticize your own play, you don't try to tell us about how we can play around this problem, and you don't try to suggest different build paths like Slayer91.That's fucking toxic.
When I posted here that was after I got consistently destroyed in less than 6s (I'd say 5 but I didn't record every occurrence on a sheet) no matter how tanky I built, up to and including warmogs/FH/thornmail. I didn't come and whine "uuuuh FH/warmogs sucks" (it does, but everything sucks atm once the AD hits 8k gold and that's my issue), I noted that it sucked awhile ago, but kept trying and mixed it with other stuff (Randuin's/Thornmail same as before the patch, Randuin's/FH, Randuin's/thornmail/warmogs, etc. depending on income and game length). And nothing was ever enough to let me tank an AD for a bit and be more of a threat than a single cc rotation (because I don't do enough damage to force him to kite, and don't live long enough even when running away to have my cc back). So then I came here.
My last game had me able to tank, and I was playing Nautilus full tank (golem -> mercs + kindlegem -> locket -> FH -> Warmogs -> chalice) against Lucian with BotRK/luci boots/IE/gauntlet (and going ghostblade) and Lux with Morello/Tear/Deathcap/Seraph's (and Zhonya on the last fight). So no pen at all and not much crit for Lucian either.
They didn't even focus me unless I went really hard on them, and I ended up under 300-400 health most fights (when I was over 2600 HP and spamming ~450 HP shields, up to 3800 HP and spamming ~600 HP shields with locket on top).
That's what it took, just for me to survive fights that we were winning by a good margin. In any "standard" or more even game with some common sense in the enemy team's build, I'd have melted under 5s like any other game (6 because of Naut's W I guess) without doing anything but pressing buttons.
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The western eSports scene is so hilarious.
It's Zuna plus his brother all over again except this time in reverse.
Unqualified person becomes coach of a team, through nepotism he brings in his close friend to be a part of the team he coaches.
Thank god for OGN
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On July 23 2014 07:27 Alaric wrote:Actually if the PBE goes through it'll be 4 seconds. He also sustain betters than Mundo atm (his passive is 0.5% max HP per second, Mundo's is 0.3%, since Gragas' W is on a shorter cd with no cost it's as free as Mundo's), and can one-shot waves by letting his Q ferment (when fully "fermented" it actually deals more damage than pre-changes). He also packs a ranged slow, a spammable knock-back/stun, and a ranged AoE directional knock-back. Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 06:29 ghrur wrote:
Alaric, you ARE whining, and you have every right to. In the Shikyo memorial thread. All you're saying is "Tanks die too fast. That's a problem. I don't like it." Well, great, Riot will definitely see you now and change everything.
You're wrong about what I assume too. See, I don't assume that you want to be the ADC or that you're going to praise the state of the game right now. I assume that you're bad at this game, just like I am, and that you're whining. My problem that is you literally bring nothing to the table. You don't criticize your own play, you don't try to tell us about how we can play around this problem, and you don't try to suggest different build paths like Slayer91.That's fucking toxic. When I posted here that was after I got consistently destroyed in less than 6s (I'd say 5 but I didn't record every occurrence on a sheet) no matter how tanky I built, up to and including warmogs/FH/thornmail. I didn't come and whine "uuuuh FH/warmogs sucks" (it does, but everything sucks atm once the AD hits 8k gold and that's my issue), I noted that it sucked awhile ago, but kept trying and mixed it with other stuff (Randuin's/Thornmail same as before the patch, Randuin's/FH, Randuin's/thornmail/warmogs, etc. depending on income and game length). And nothing was ever enough to let me tank an AD for a bit and be more of a threat than a single cc rotation (because I don't do enough damage to force him to kite, and don't live long enough even when running away to have my cc back). So then I came here. My last game had me able to tank, and I was playing Nautilus full tank (golem -> mercs + kindlegem -> locket -> FH -> Warmogs -> chalice) against Lucian with BotRK/luci boots/IE/gauntlet (and going ghostblade) and Lux with Morello/Tear/Deathcap/Seraph's (and Zhonya on the last fight). So no pen at all and not much crit for Lucian either. They didn't even focus me unless I went really hard on them, and I ended up under 300-400 health most fights (when I was over 2600 HP and spamming ~450 HP shields, up to 3800 HP and spamming ~600 HP shields with locket on top). That's what it took, just for me to survive fights that we were winning by a good margin. In any "standard" or more even game with some common sense in the enemy team's build, I'd have melted under 5s like any other game (6 because of Naut's W I guess) without doing anything but pressing buttons.
What's your point?`
"If you build tank you only last 5 seconds when you'd normally last 5.5 seconds with old randuins?"
EVERYONE dies fast lategame. As naut if you catch someone you can guarantee their death and then you won't melt.
Being tanky has no innate purpose, you should learn to try to maximize your potential with your defensive stats instead of thinking its a WoW raid with healers.
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Dunno, for me "being tanky" means "I acknowledge that I won't kill you faster than I'd die, so I'll just build enough defenses to make sure either I live long enough for my utility cd to come back (including damage abilities tied to a cc), or I do enough damage that you can't ignore me but can't kill me too fast if you try that my team won't be able to use the bought time".
Also "fast" can be relative. People whined about early s3 and how fights could go on for 20+ seconds but the opposite (anyone gets 100-0'd as soon as the machinegun looks at them) isn't any less extremist.
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On July 23 2014 07:27 Alaric wrote:Actually if the PBE goes through it'll be 4 seconds. He also sustain betters than Mundo atm (his passive is 0.5% max HP per second, Mundo's is 0.3%, since Gragas' W is on a shorter cd with no cost it's as free as Mundo's), and can one-shot waves by letting his Q ferment (when fully "fermented" it actually deals more damage than pre-changes). He also packs a ranged slow, a spammable knock-back/stun, and a ranged AoE directional knock-back. Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 06:29 ghrur wrote:
Alaric, you ARE whining, and you have every right to. In the Shikyo memorial thread. All you're saying is "Tanks die too fast. That's a problem. I don't like it." Well, great, Riot will definitely see you now and change everything.
You're wrong about what I assume too. See, I don't assume that you want to be the ADC or that you're going to praise the state of the game right now. I assume that you're bad at this game, just like I am, and that you're whining. My problem that is you literally bring nothing to the table. You don't criticize your own play, you don't try to tell us about how we can play around this problem, and you don't try to suggest different build paths like Slayer91.That's fucking toxic. When I posted here that was after I got consistently destroyed in less than 6s (I'd say 5 but I didn't record every occurrence on a sheet) no matter how tanky I built, up to and including warmogs/FH/thornmail. I didn't come and whine "uuuuh FH/warmogs sucks" (it does, but everything sucks atm once the AD hits 8k gold and that's my issue), I noted that it sucked awhile ago, but kept trying and mixed it with other stuff (Randuin's/Thornmail same as before the patch, Randuin's/FH, Randuin's/thornmail/warmogs, etc. depending on income and game length). And nothing was ever enough to let me tank an AD for a bit and be more of a threat than a single cc rotation (because I don't do enough damage to force him to kite, and don't live long enough even when running away to have my cc back). So then I came here. My last game had me able to tank, and I was playing Nautilus full tank (golem -> mercs + kindlegem -> locket -> FH -> Warmogs -> chalice) against Lucian with BotRK/luci boots/IE/gauntlet (and going ghostblade) and Lux with Morello/Tear/Deathcap/Seraph's (and Zhonya on the last fight). So no pen at all and not much crit for Lucian either. They didn't even focus me unless I went really hard on them, and I ended up under 300-400 health most fights (when I was over 2600 HP and spamming ~450 HP shields, up to 3800 HP and spamming ~600 HP shields with locket on top). That's what it took, just for me to survive fights that we were winning by a good margin. In any "standard" or more even game with some common sense in the enemy team's build, I'd have melted under 5s like any other game (6 because of Naut's W I guess) without doing anything but pressing buttons.
Considering lucian has a bork on an ad that has basically an auto reset with every ability and one on 2 sec cd not that surprising you die fast.
Honestly to me it sounds like you just go in full retard and expect to be immortal.It definitely isn't as easy as you make it out to kill tanks unless they are poked or go in straight up 1v5.If it was true nobody would be getting defensive items at all.
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On July 23 2014 07:44 Alaric wrote:
Dunno, for me "being tanky" means "I acknowledge that I won't kill you faster than I'd die, so I'll just build enough defenses to make sure either I live long enough for my utility cd to come back (including damage abilities tied to a cc), or I do enough damage that you can't ignore me but can't kill me too fast if you try that my team won't be able to use the bought time".
Also "fast" can be relative. People whined about early s3 and how fights could go on for 20+ seconds but the opposite (anyone gets 100-0'd as soon as the machinegun looks at them) isn't any less extremist.
I'm curious, because last time I suggested this mastery was good I got laughed at, but are you taking the Reinforced Armor mastery?
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
So what do you guys suggest as the first defensive item for jax, I'm stagnant as fuck with still going tri/blade > randuins > GA > Idklol and I'm assuming that something else would be better now.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On July 23 2014 07:48 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 07:44 Alaric wrote:
Dunno, for me "being tanky" means "I acknowledge that I won't kill you faster than I'd die, so I'll just build enough defenses to make sure either I live long enough for my utility cd to come back (including damage abilities tied to a cc), or I do enough damage that you can't ignore me but can't kill me too fast if you try that my team won't be able to use the bought time".
Also "fast" can be relative. People whined about early s3 and how fights could go on for 20+ seconds but the opposite (anyone gets 100-0'd as soon as the machinegun looks at them) isn't any less extremist. I'm curious, because last time I suggested this mastery was good I got laughed at, but are you taking the Reinforced Armor mastery?
Ditto for Oppression, which basically says "-3% damage once you build Randuin's or Frozen Heart".
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On July 23 2014 07:44 Alaric wrote:
Dunno, for me "being tanky" means "I acknowledge that I won't kill you faster than I'd die, so I'll just build enough defenses to make sure either I live long enough for my utility cd to come back (including damage abilities tied to a cc), or I do enough damage that you can't ignore me but can't kill me too fast if you try that my team won't be able to use the bought time".
Also "fast" can be relative. People whined about early s3 and how fights could go on for 20+ seconds but the opposite (anyone gets 100-0'd as soon as the machinegun looks at them) isn't any less extremist.
Yeah, well newsflash: Being tanky means "I have a relatively higher amount of EHP"
if an ADC has 2k hp and 100 armour, nad you have 3k hp and 200 armour, you are only a bit more than 2x as tanky. Think how fast an ADc who gets caught melts.
How long a fight goes on depends on a lot. If the squishies all get killed early the fight will last a long time. If the fight has lots of kiting around after the first few people die it will last a long time.
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On July 23 2014 07:38 GozoShioda wrote:
The western eSports scene is so hilarious.
It's Zuna plus his brother all over again except this time in reverse.
Unqualified person becomes coach of a team, through nepotism he brings in his close friend to be a part of the team he coaches.
Thank god for OGN
Are you trying to imply Lustboy isn't going to be an improvement over Gleeb?
On July 23 2014 07:49 Fusilero wrote:
So what do you guys suggest as the first defensive item for jax, I'm stagnant as fuck with still going tri/blade > randuins > GA > Idklol and I'm assuming that something else would be better now.
If you're team fighting, get GA right after BotRK or Triforce.
If you're going full yolo queue bus build, get both BotRK+Triforce, into BVeil (considering the popularity of AP top laners)
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is Reinforced Armor bad? Most of the damage coming out of lategame adcs is probably going to be crits
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On July 23 2014 07:49 Fusilero wrote:
So what do you guys suggest as the first defensive item for jax, I'm stagnant as fuck with still going tri/blade > randuins > GA > Idklol and I'm assuming that something else would be better now.
Depends on teams.Randuin is still the best on him imo.Don't really play jax but coming from an adc player.
You can followup slows if they cleanse them and you still need it on jax.
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On July 23 2014 07:53 Nos- wrote:
is Reinforced Armor bad? Most of the damage coming out of lategame adcs is probably going to be crits
Depends on ADC. If it's Kog, you probably won't be taking much crit damage until his 4th item, due to Triforce-> BotRK->LW build.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On July 23 2014 07:51 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 07:38 GozoShioda wrote:
The western eSports scene is so hilarious.
It's Zuna plus his brother all over again except this time in reverse.
Unqualified person becomes coach of a team, through nepotism he brings in his close friend to be a part of the team he coaches.
Thank god for OGN Are you trying to imply Lustboy isn't going to be an improvement over Gleeb? Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 07:49 Fusilero wrote:
So what do you guys suggest as the first defensive item for jax, I'm stagnant as fuck with still going tri/blade > randuins > GA > Idklol and I'm assuming that something else would be better now. If you're team fighting, get GA right after BotRK or Triforce. If you're going full yolo queue bus build, get both BotRK+Triforce, into BVeil (considering the popularity of AP top laners)
Implying there's any way to play jax/irelia other than the yolo queue botrk/tri bus.
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On July 23 2014 07:55 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 07:51 wei2coolman wrote:On July 23 2014 07:38 GozoShioda wrote:
The western eSports scene is so hilarious.
It's Zuna plus his brother all over again except this time in reverse.
Unqualified person becomes coach of a team, through nepotism he brings in his close friend to be a part of the team he coaches.
Thank god for OGN Are you trying to imply Lustboy isn't going to be an improvement over Gleeb? On July 23 2014 07:49 Fusilero wrote:
So what do you guys suggest as the first defensive item for jax, I'm stagnant as fuck with still going tri/blade > randuins > GA > Idklol and I'm assuming that something else would be better now. If you're team fighting, get GA right after BotRK or Triforce. If you're going full yolo queue bus build, get both BotRK+Triforce, into BVeil (considering the popularity of AP top laners) Implying there's any way to play jax/irelia other than the yolo queue botrk/tri bus.
In that case, get the Bveil+randuins combo. GA is not that great for split pushing, because if you're getting caught out, you're dead regardless.
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+ Show Spoiler +
Sorry if it's already been posted, the cinematic is pretty cool though
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On July 23 2014 07:53 Nos- wrote:
is Reinforced Armor bad? Most of the damage coming out of lategame adcs is probably going to be crits
Yasuo.
Pantheon.
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`Say what you want but Reinforce armour is 1 point for a significant damage decrease to lategame ADCs. Pretty worth it against people like trist unless your lane is super hard.
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I don't feel like Irelia needs the BotRK tbh. In most cases, unless you get behind or you have to deal with some heavy sustain/high damage dude (like Tryndamere, can't get tanked with just ult+Hiten+armour either if you didn't get a lead in lane), for example a splitpusher, Irelia's got enough sustain by herself in lane (esp. if you add 1-2 dblades) and once she's got an item completed she's more about finding a window and bursting a squishy down anyway. Triforce is vastly superior to BotRK in terms of burst, and once you have it you don't mind either Zephyr (if snowballing) or a defensive item (Randuin's/BV for example, I tend to build Locket when against a bunch of magic damage but it's weaker for yourself) because in the midgame you should still have enough damage to kill someone if you can stick for enough of Hiten Style's duration.
Later on she falls off anyway, I tend to rely on a late Zephyr for damage, once I'm tanky enough (2-3 items depending on how much they focus me and whether I can kill someone or have to make him run then hide myself until CDs come back up), but I see BotRK as overkill and not as good as survivability for Irelia's second big item.
About the masteries I wasn't using Enchanted Armor but that's because it often doesn't do much in lane for me (I play stuff like Jax or Irelia so I always get some "counterpick" against me that makes recovery more interesting, and I spec masteries/runes for the early game), and it is very bad if you compare it to Legendary Guardian for example. I guess since most games go late I just have to be slightly better to not miss Recovery, and go for that, ugh.
Does Reinforced Armor reduce the crit multiplier by a flat 10%, or it reduces the final damage by 10% (eg. does an IE crit do 2.4x or 2.25x the normal damage)?
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EPT
