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On July 23 2014 04:11 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 04:03 nafta wrote:On July 23 2014 03:53 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 22 2014 20:04 nafta wrote:On July 22 2014 18:22 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 22 2014 17:54 GolemMadness wrote:
A couple days ago Reginald was talking on stream about how bad Seraph is and that every other top laner agrees that he's bad. I'm pretty amazed Reddit wasn't flooded with it to be honest. Pfft. Even some of TL was riding the Seraph hype train. I was saying Seraph is overrated and mediocre after LCS week 1, but tons of people were saying it's just communication issues and he's secretly OP. Honestly, I don't think he's terrible. CLG's playstyle forces him to play on the back foot, but I wouldn't put him anywhere near top 3 top laners in the NA. Well that would make you a not very smart person since most players who just join the lcs always perform poorly in the start overall.Don't really know how good is seraph since I don't watch his stream and no way to watch clg scrims but his lcs performance always just looks like someone who is very nervous to me.Exactly like altec but he finally managed to handle it a few weeks ago and he's been playing very well.Hopefully seraph can do the same before playoffs or during. lol that must make you a not very smart person since there have been plenty of players who perform not poorly in the start. (Ex. Wildturtle) not to mention the fact that Seraph did stream before joining, was a known sub who had little playtime, so you could actually see how he played. Wow wildturtle a player with years of experience playing at lan tournaments did well how surprising is that? A lot of these players have never even been to a lan tournament.Like sure the previous mlgs may not be as professional like lcs but it sure helps. So? Seraph had OGN experience. Wildturtle also played at like...3 LANs. That's not exactly years of experience. Sorry, but Seraph isn't that good. He's been way overhyped since he came to NA.
Maybe I should've been more clear.Seraph is definitely underperforming and not playing very well just your first statement about week 1 is pretty dumb.mb
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Thing is, FH is awful. It's been awful for a while and then Riot destroyed its build path and then the complete item.
What do you build instead? Randuin's? Which over the months had its passive moved from "20% AS 10% MS debuff for 1.5s" to "10% AS debuff for 1s"? Thornmail which provides even less EHP than FH? Sunfire which is kind of a joke unless you really need AoE in lane now?
These nerfs were already pretty darn stupid as it were. But bringing back IE on top of it makes you irrelevant so fast it's not even funny. As soon as the guy gets IE if he's lucky with the RNG, or as soon as he gets something akin to Zeal+LW if not (and you do build tanky), you just melt. If you don't 100-0 the guy, it's over, he'll kill you much faster than you do.
Too bad heal and picks like Ziggs, Braum, Thresh make assassins weak now, I guess.
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On July 23 2014 04:22 Alaric wrote:
Thing is, FH is awful. It's been awful for a while and then Riot destroyed its build path and then the complete item.
What do you build instead? Randuin's? Which over the months had its passive moved from "20% AS 10% MS debuff for 1.5s" to "10% AS debuff for 1s"? Thornmail which provides even less EHP than FH? Sunfire which is kind of a joke unless you really need AoE in lane now?
These nerfs were already pretty darn stupid as it were. But bringing back IE on top of it makes you irrelevant so fast it's not even funny. As soon as the guy gets IE if he's lucky with the RNG, or as soon as he gets something akin to Zeal+LW if not (and you do build tanky), you just melt. If you don't 100-0 the guy, it's over, he'll kill you much faster than you do.
Too bad heal and picks like Ziggs, Braum, Thresh make assassins weak now, I guess.
Go play some Malphite. People seem to have forgotten how brutal his ult can be in locking down and killing a squishy
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The best part is they buff highly mobile champions like Ahri while the Dariuses, Olafs, and Garens of the world are pretty trash right now.
Things had already been moving towards being more ADC centric without having to completely gut the main itemization path of tanks with no alternatives. It absolutely blows playing tanks right now, and its pretty much pointless to play most of the ones without dashes. I mean it already sort of was, but now it feels hopeless.
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On July 23 2014 04:22 Alaric wrote:
Thing is, FH is awful. It's been awful for a while and then Riot destroyed its build path and then the complete item.
What do you build instead? Randuin's? Which over the months had its passive moved from "20% AS 10% MS debuff for 1.5s" to "10% AS debuff for 1s"? Thornmail which provides even less EHP than FH? Sunfire which is kind of a joke unless you really need AoE in lane now?
These nerfs were already pretty darn stupid as it were. But bringing back IE on top of it makes you irrelevant so fast it's not even funny. As soon as the guy gets IE if he's lucky with the RNG, or as soon as he gets something akin to Zeal+LW if not (and you do build tanky), you just melt. If you don't 100-0 the guy, it's over, he'll kill you much faster than you do.
Too bad heal and picks like Ziggs, Braum, Thresh make assassins weak now, I guess.
I agree that FH is awful, but Riot never destroyed the build path. If anything the build path was arguably buffed since there's less components, both of which have easy build paths themselves.
The trend regarding items in Riot's balancing philosophy seems to be to reduce all items into nothing but a bunch of stats. They've kept reducing the power of the unique aspects of items until they're more or less irrelevant. Someone should tell Riot we don't need more/new items, we just need the current ones buffed. There's plenty of cool toys they can play with to add more depth to item choices; Riot just chooses not to.
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On July 23 2014 04:22 Alaric wrote:
Thing is, FH is awful. It's been awful for a while and then Riot destroyed its build path and then the complete item.
What do you build instead? Randuin's? Which over the months had its passive moved from "20% AS 10% MS debuff for 1.5s" to "10% AS debuff for 1s"? Thornmail which provides even less EHP than FH? Sunfire which is kind of a joke unless you really need AoE in lane now?
These nerfs were already pretty darn stupid as it were. But bringing back IE on top of it makes you irrelevant so fast it's not even funny. As soon as the guy gets IE if he's lucky with the RNG, or as soon as he gets something akin to Zeal+LW if not (and you do build tanky), you just melt. If you don't 100-0 the guy, it's over, he'll kill you much faster than you do.
Too bad heal and picks like Ziggs, Braum, Thresh make assassins weak now, I guess.
FH isnt really awful, but you need a HP item to go with it. Obviously you only buy it on champs that value CDR though. Thornmail is pretty good as well. Honestly ADCs get LW pretty fast anyway so who cares about stacking armour late game.
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On July 23 2014 04:30 zer0das wrote:
The best part is they buff highly mobile champions like Ahri while the Dariuses, Olafs, and Garens of the world are pretty trash right now.
Things had already been moving towards being more ADC centric without having to completely gut the main itemization path of tanks with no alternatives. It absolutely blows playing tanks right now, and its pretty much pointless to play most of the ones without dashes. I mean it already sort of was, but now it feels hopeless.
I don't know, if anything, highly mobile champions have seen way less playtime lately. Where are the Fizz, lb, ahri, zed in competitive now? Even renek and Shyv aren't picked that much anymore. The only really mobile champions are mostly junglers (and adc with dashes). This is another reason we're moving back toward ad centric games imo.
And if you want to play a tank, Mundo is still great. The early laning isn't even that painful since everyone goes AP top, and you do not die ever since nobody runs ignite anymore
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On July 23 2014 04:31 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 04:22 Alaric wrote:
Thing is, FH is awful. It's been awful for a while and then Riot destroyed its build path and then the complete item.
What do you build instead? Randuin's? Which over the months had its passive moved from "20% AS 10% MS debuff for 1.5s" to "10% AS debuff for 1s"? Thornmail which provides even less EHP than FH? Sunfire which is kind of a joke unless you really need AoE in lane now?
These nerfs were already pretty darn stupid as it were. But bringing back IE on top of it makes you irrelevant so fast it's not even funny. As soon as the guy gets IE if he's lucky with the RNG, or as soon as he gets something akin to Zeal+LW if not (and you do build tanky), you just melt. If you don't 100-0 the guy, it's over, he'll kill you much faster than you do.
Too bad heal and picks like Ziggs, Braum, Thresh make assassins weak now, I guess. I agree that FH is awful, but Riot never destroyed the build path. If anything the build path was arguably buffed since there's less components, both of which have easy build paths themselves. The trend regarding items in Riot's balancing philosophy seems to be to reduce all items into nothing but a bunch of stats. They've kept reducing the power of the unique aspects of items until they're more or less irrelevant. Someone should tell Riot we don't need more/new items, we just need the current ones buffed. There's plenty of cool toys they can play with to add more depth to item choices; Riot just chooses not to.
Tbh I prefered the previous shroud recipe, and the 15% CDR to but I guess they really dislike these non-multiple of ten values and didn't want one on Gauntlet either.
The current shroud only remotely has value if you want mana really, really bad, and early CDR. It barely gives any additional armour for the 650 gold you dump into it and it makes it really awkward and bad slot-wise.
Plus between that and the Warden's mail changes it means starting cloth means selling it or building tabi/shroud. Meh.
And when I have FH+Warmog's that's a pretty huge amount of physical EHP too. I just didn't mention HP because they weren't relevant at all to the pretty bullshit dps I take to the face whenever I play something supposed to be tanky now.
I mean, in a way it's very ironic because Riot wants tanky junglers to be more successful, but at the same time they swing a bat at armour itemisation with joyful abandon, so that whoever relies on tankiness is going to be pretty trash later on. The value of Amumu/Nautilus/Rammus/etc. ends up being in their cc because they won't deal enough damage to be threats past the early game anyway (yeah I know, 'cept Amumu) and they sure as hell won't tank anything past 30 minutes. So why would we go about picking them when it's being put on a clock because of other changes Riot made at the same time?
Anakko, you're not listing mobile champions, you're listing assassins. Here's your answer.
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But the thing you have to realize is that offensive stats scale much harder than defensive stats in League, and that's by design.
Tanks aren't supposed to be able to tank the world past 30~40 minutes in League and that's probably completely intentional with multiplicative scaling being what it is.
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On July 23 2014 03:53 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 03:46 ghrur wrote:On July 23 2014 02:39 Alaric wrote:
I just can't get behind the warmogs+FH supposed replacement build for Randuin's. When I have ~190 armour and the FH aura and still take 500+ dps from just IE/PD/LW Tristana, either he's got one of the most bullshit RNG on his crits ever, or raping every single tank item in turn just finally broke tank itemisation.
It's happening game after game after game whenever an AD has IE and LW, regardless of his other items. That's just dumb, I'm made utterly useless once I can't 100-0 them anymore. I haven't been enjoying any game where I'm playing some kind of tank/initiator since 2 patches because of it.
If people's sense of "AD carrying for real" is "being able to shred people with right-clicks and no need to kite ever past the 8k gold mark" then yeah, these are really entitled whiners. Honestly, you sound like the "really entitled whiner." Take it to the Shikyo memorial thread. It's really annoying to read this type of shit. If you're getting wrecked by ADs, it's probably because they are stutter stepping more so than you say, you're initiating at a shit time, you're not as far ahead as you think you are, or a million other reasons. Deal with it because whining in TL LoL doesn't change anything. It just clogs up the general discussion. Better yet, write down how you think you should deal with it or ask for input. A post should never be fucking "omg, this shit is imba" but rather "oh wow, this shit is strong. How do I deal with it?" and most of that is dependent on your specific game situation. Sorry to expect not to take 500+ dps (literally) from a Trist who doesn't even need to kite when she hs 3 items and I have 200+ armour and the FH aura on my side, duh. I do enjoy playing the game past 10 minutes and tanky built champions not being bigger early game gambits than Urgot, y'know.
And experience has shown you differently. So either learn to expect differently or continue to feed. Part of the skill of the game is learning what you can and can not do, and your insistence on "I SHOULD be able to tank for longer" just inhibits your ability to realize "Oh, I can only survive for 4 seconds, not 8." In other words, your expectations are fucking up your understanding of the relative power of your champions.
But really, nobody gives a damn about your expectations. Riot won't change things just because you whine on TL, and your team won't care when when you're feeding by diving in and expecting to live forever.
Tl;dr: stop whining and get better.
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On July 23 2014 04:57 Ryuu314 wrote:
But the thing you have to realize is that offensive stats scale much harder than defensive stats in League, and that's by design.
Tanks aren't supposed to be able to tank the world past 30~40 minutes in League and that's probably completely intentional with multiplicative scaling being what it is.
The thing is, I'd rather they still be able to live more than 4 seconds when there's only a single goddamn champion hitting them. Otherwise there's not much difference between them and a squishy (maybe one second?).
And ghrur you just focus on the "I dislike this" part and assume it's just whining and stuff. Well, yeah, sure, I'm not going to laud something I'm unhappy with. Do you expect me to just claim that the game is currently in the best state it ever was and that everything's good and fine?
It'd be the same as, say, a Zed, Akali or Pantheon player talking about how the game has phased the champions he enjoys playing out of the game, and as such it's just not as fun for him. These changes screwed champions built tanky (not just tanks, champions built tanky in general) over hard, and there's not much they can do anymore past some point. When Riot themselves tout player satisfaction and viability as their objectives so much, there's value in pointing out a full class of characters becomes dead weight later on.
You also assume that because I'm salty over players able to get by regardless of their actual mechanical skill (I've seen both good guys and others mechanically even worse than me at marksmen, and that's a feat) without any effort, I want to be in their shoes.
There's a gap between "I'll still be half-health after 10 seconds uninterrupted and I can walk after him and slowly kill him anytime" and "I die in 5-6 seconds, top". And I'd rather the state of the game gets back to somewhere in this game, where my contribution becomes a binary "Are you hard cc-ing him? No: you're soon to be dead but bought <hard cc duration> for your team, yes: you're dead now".
Otherwise I guess I could just stop playing tanks and go glass cannon on Lee/Vi/Amumu/whoever lends himself to it and do worse than before the patches but still better that if I tried to be tanky.
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Btw FH has arguably the best and most underrated offensive stats: CDR.
More CDR = more gapclosers/CC = stickier = more damage
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On July 23 2014 05:33 Sufficiency wrote:
Btw FH has arguably the best and most underrated offensive stats: CDR.
More CDR = more gapclosers/CC = stickier = more damage
you can just get giants+wardens and then finish FH+warmogs later, giants+wardens are the stats you want and converting to randuins is just meh.
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I got FH as my first defensive item on jungle Xin (i was pretty well off, so i was able to get a giant's belt quickly) vs an all AD comp. It felt REALLY good since it got me to 40% CDR (the aura is good vs a fully attack speed reliant team).
Setting that anecdote aside, i feel like FH is TOO niche atm. I don't really like to build it even vs 3 attack speed reliant champs cause it feels too weak vs that pesky AP (it can be an AD as well that doesn't care about the FH aura, Randuin's is obviously better vs those).
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On July 23 2014 04:30 zer0das wrote:
The best part is they buff highly mobile champions like Ahri while the Dariuses, Olafs, and Garens of the world are pretty trash right now.
Things had already been moving towards being more ADC centric without having to completely gut the main itemization path of tanks with no alternatives. It absolutely blows playing tanks right now, and its pretty much pointless to play most of the ones without dashes. I mean it already sort of was, but now it feels hopeless.
Ahri was a simple champion to fix because literally the only thing "wrong" with her was her clear power was a tad off. I'd rather Riot take the time to fix a bunch of "almost there" champions instead of paying attention to the more severe cases and then overbuffing them to only nerf them too hard again a patch later.
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Uh, just because Ahri can't one-shot the wave doesn't mean her wave clear is off. Oo If anything, more champions should be like that (at least they're working on it for Gragas)!
She's also pretty good at pushing pre-6 / grail for her opponent.
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On July 23 2014 04:57 Ryuu314 wrote:
But the thing you have to realize is that offensive stats scale much harder than defensive stats in League, and that's by design.
Tanks aren't supposed to be able to tank the world past 30~40 minutes in League and that's probably completely intentional with multiplicative scaling being what it is.
Watching TI4 the latter statement has me thinking that perhaps that is just LOLs defining issue for jungler balance. If you are weaker early because of lack of damage, take longer to scale up for the same reason, and still are on a timer late game, that is a narrow rope to walk.
I don't know what a fix would be.
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Alaric, you ARE whining, and you have every right to. In the Shikyo memorial thread. All you're saying is "Tanks die too fast. That's a problem. I don't like it." Well, great, Riot will definitely see you now and change everything.
You're wrong about what I assume too. See, I don't assume that you want to be the ADC or that you're going to praise the state of the game right now. I assume that you're bad at this game, just like I am, and that you're whining. My problem that is you literally bring nothing to the table. You don't criticize your own play, you don't try to tell us about how we can play around this problem, and you don't try to suggest different build paths like Slayer91.That's fucking toxic.
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On July 23 2014 05:44 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 05:33 Sufficiency wrote:
Btw FH has arguably the best and most underrated offensive stats: CDR.
More CDR = more gapclosers/CC = stickier = more damage you can just get giants+wardens and then finish FH+warmogs later, giants+wardens are the stats you want and converting to randuins is just meh.
Thank god I'm no longer the only one saying this.
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EPT
