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On July 02 2014 15:49 GolemMadness wrote:
Kayle has a win rate over 56% (~1.5% higher than any other champion) and a ban rate over 80% in solo queue. Last week in the NA LCS she was picked or banned every single game, and she's been picked or banned in at least 50% of games for weeks.
Also, Thresh sort of got nerfed with a bigger hit box.
We agree she was strong, but hitting her with ult Nerf, AS nerf, and drastic ratio nerf, is more than heavy handed, when we're talking about patches coming out every other week.
Also, lucian unchanged.
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On July 02 2014 14:28 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Do you even know how Riot was started?
Before or after the part where Pendragon tried destroying the entire western DotA scene in hopes that they would all become LoL players?
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On July 02 2014 17:11 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 14:28 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Do you even know how Riot was started? Before or after the part where Pendragon tried destroying the entire western DotA scene in hopes that they would all become LoL players?
I think he's referring to the Merrill Lynch financial executive and the private equity consultant that founded riot. before they picked up pendragon. 
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On July 02 2014 15:45 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 15:28 JazzVortical wrote:On July 02 2014 14:37 wei2coolman wrote:On July 02 2014 14:31 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 02 2014 14:29 wei2coolman wrote:On July 02 2014 14:24 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 02 2014 14:21 wei2coolman wrote:On July 02 2014 14:06 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 02 2014 13:57 wei2coolman wrote:
Man these kayle nerfs make me so salty. Like wtf, you're fucking patching every other week. Why hit it so fucking hard over a single patch? Even though we saw it competitive in eu and a little in na, it was hardly a sure win champ. they probably just decided that their policy is at odds with an invulnerability ultimate and are going the way of the eve with her. The ultimate nerf was probably the least consequential part about these nerfs tho. the stealth nerfs to eve when they neutered her pre rework were the least of her nerfs as well. perhaps they want to see if she still provides the type of gameplay she did before after the nerf, and if so, further neuterings could come. The eve nerfs were retarded cuz they left the bitch alone for a year and a half to fucking rot after the nerfs without ever trying to change numbers inbetween rework. I can kinda forgive that though. Reason being Eve pre-nerf was one of, if not the biggest post-beta "problem champ" ever. She was "un-fun" plus really damn powerful. Riot intended to put her in the dumpster until rework. Heck, I'm pretty sure they would've just removed her if they could. Plus, with regards to Kayle, popular sentiment was that she was extremely strong and her pick/ban plus winrate backs that up somewhat. Her ult cooldown was just ridiculously short and the "nerf" is just a buff revert. Same deal with her E ratio nerf. It was a revert of a buff Riot gave her in season 3. Kayle was strong but not even that problematic. Would of been better to nerf her e's base damage instead of the ratio, as to make her harder to ramp up and push her powerspike to 3 offensive items instead of 2. Just salty they went so ham on her when she was hardly overly problematic. It's pretty hilarious really. Let's patch the game every two weeks. Let's roll out massive changes instead of small ones. Let's hit Kayle with heaps of nerfs, and give Nidalee heaps of buffs. But let's not touch champs like Thresh and Lee Sin who have been dominating for far too long. There's this weird dichotomy of smashing certain champs and barely flinching with others. Ziggs gets a slowly, slowly approach, but let's go for 3 seperate nerfs on Kayle. I'm not saying Kayle didn't need nerfs (she did IMO), but start with one thing. What you describe is literally my only complaint about Riot and their balancing. They might decide to rework a champion when others have been sitting unused in competitive play forever while for just as long some champs have been OP (or at least top tier forever). Champs like Sion, Poppy, Galio, Varrus, Rammus, Fiora, Morde, Brand, GP, Viktor are never seen in competitive play and, while perhaps not terrible champions, lack some major qualities that the top tier champions have. There will always be some haves and have nots in LoL champions. They can't rework every champion so they have a dash ability and I don't expect them to. However, the names I listed are just ones off the top of my head that are never seen. There are still plenty that are hardly ever seen, but not awful. And then you've got the same list of steady champions that are always picked. Rather than make people trade off between utility and damage they simply allow the best champs to retain both even while nerfing them.
This is what irks me so much about the Xerath rework. Yes, still salty. Comes out of freaking nowhere for bullshit reasons and all it really did was alienate Xerath players. Wasn't a problem in Competitive (showed up infrequently) and didn't dominate solo queue. Meanwhile a stack of champs, like the ones you mention, need much, much greater help and they don't get any and are left to rot. It's really infuriating. Viktor having his passive fixed has been in the pipeline for as long as I've been playing the game. "Nah, let's fuck around with Xerath instead".
Thresh is the classic point. I cannot see any justification for him being so strong for so long. Yet he's only seen tiny changes. Jesus Christ Flay doesn't need a slow attached to it and the Box shouldn't have 550 base damage and 100% AP scaling. WTF is that?
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AP scaling wouldn't be a problem is Thresh didn't get to 60-80 AP somewhat easily later in the game, his passive enhances it a bunch.
But yeah, when I'm jungling I'm often outdamaged by Thresh just because a good Box is basically 1500+ damage pre-mitigation without counting the rest of his kit (I'm playing Vi and Hecarim most of the time when Jungling, so either I'm single target or I need a good 10s to ramp up my damage).
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Meh Nida is going to be so annoying lol. Also Maokai could become real terror too. Kayle is probably doomed but who knows that champ always seems to be coming back even after nerfs (leesin style, he's #1 jungler atm despite all the nerfs). I don't like the removed tenacity on ancient golem and the scaling bonus hp seems kinda silly.
Overall if we don't look at individual champs the changes are still quite good, the xp range change was clearly needed, the turret buff not so sure but we'll see. Let's just hope it doesn't mean every competitive game will last 60 minutes.
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the thing that worries me about the turret and xp changes is that in solo q bot lane is going to become even more pointless. currently its the easiest lane to just chill under your tower and farm out the lane, stronger towers make that even easier. because junglers and mids maintain a strength and level advantage over you for so long ganking is really easy bot lane, especially if the other team is really pushed up.
its almost getting to the point where i dont see any value in playing anything strong early in bot lane, the tiny CS advantage you can eek out before it pushes to tower is irrelevant compared to the risk of opening yourself up to easy ganks,
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On July 02 2014 18:07 turdburgler wrote:
the thing that worries me about the turret and xp changes is that in solo q bot lane is going to become even more pointless. currently its the easiest lane to just chill under your tower and farm out the lane, stronger towers make that even easier. because junglers and mids maintain a strength and level advantage over you for so long ganking is really easy bot lane, especially if the other team is really pushed up.
its almost getting to the point where i dont see any value in playing anything strong early in bot lane, the tiny CS advantage you can eek out before it pushes to tower is irrelevant compared to the risk of opening yourself up to easy ganks,
The only ADCs with decent early games that have been in meta are the ones who dont fall off like Lucian or have enormous late game power spikes like Twitch. The experience I have is that the laning phase bot is almost 100% in the hands of the support while the ADC might as well be a farming bot until 30 mins. Even more distressing is that this seems to be what Riot is going for given their posts on this matter and the recent changes. Buckle in or change roles because I think it will stay this way or get worse until next season.
This patch I have been playing Zilean mid a lot and I gotta say his mana costs make me lol. 310 mana for one Q-W-Q combo. 175 mana for ult and 80 for slow. He is the only champion where I can go Seraphs + ROA and still have to manage mana carefully without blue. Fun as heck though and the damage can be really good if played well.
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On July 02 2014 15:09 Slusher wrote:
I think the only way to truly know is to play a tennis match against him.
Come now love, that's just faulty logic.
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Dam really dislike the Tower and Xp changes. Wonder why they did that when saying they wanted early aggression.
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As a notorious tower diver I disagree with the tower changes. Uncalled for. 
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On July 02 2014 18:35 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 18:07 turdburgler wrote:
the thing that worries me about the turret and xp changes is that in solo q bot lane is going to become even more pointless. currently its the easiest lane to just chill under your tower and farm out the lane, stronger towers make that even easier. because junglers and mids maintain a strength and level advantage over you for so long ganking is really easy bot lane, especially if the other team is really pushed up.
its almost getting to the point where i dont see any value in playing anything strong early in bot lane, the tiny CS advantage you can eek out before it pushes to tower is irrelevant compared to the risk of opening yourself up to easy ganks, The only ADCs with decent early games that have been in meta are the ones who dont fall off like Lucian or have enormous late game power spikes like Twitch. The experience I have is that the laning phase bot is almost 100% in the hands of the support while the ADC might as well be a farming bot until 30 mins. Even more distressing is that this seems to be what Riot is going for given their posts on this matter and the recent changes. Buckle in or change roles because I think it will stay this way or get worse until next season. This patch I have been playing Zilean mid a lot and I gotta say his mana costs make me lol. 310 mana for one Q-W-Q combo. 175 mana for ult and 80 for slow. He is the only champion where I can go Seraphs + ROA and still have to manage mana carefully without blue. Fun as heck though and the damage can be really good if played well.
Honestly if he was stronger he would be oppressive in bot lane. That's the only problem, he's impossible to balance as a caster and his support skills completely blow in the current scene.
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Suddenly, Pentakill Karthus extra lines become irrelevant.
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On July 02 2014 18:35 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 18:07 turdburgler wrote:
the thing that worries me about the turret and xp changes is that in solo q bot lane is going to become even more pointless. currently its the easiest lane to just chill under your tower and farm out the lane, stronger towers make that even easier. because junglers and mids maintain a strength and level advantage over you for so long ganking is really easy bot lane, especially if the other team is really pushed up.
its almost getting to the point where i dont see any value in playing anything strong early in bot lane, the tiny CS advantage you can eek out before it pushes to tower is irrelevant compared to the risk of opening yourself up to easy ganks, The only ADCs with decent early games that have been in meta are the ones who dont fall off like Lucian or have enormous late game power spikes like Twitch. The experience I have is that the laning phase bot is almost 100% in the hands of the support while the ADC might as well be a farming bot until 30 mins. Even more distressing is that this seems to be what Riot is going for given their posts on this matter and the recent changes. Buckle in or change roles because I think it will stay this way or get worse until next season. This patch I have been playing Zilean mid a lot and I gotta say his mana costs make me lol. 310 mana for one Q-W-Q combo. 175 mana for ult and 80 for slow. He is the only champion where I can go Seraphs + ROA and still have to manage mana carefully without blue. Fun as heck though and the damage can be really good if played well.
Zilean needs a pool, but you'll find athene's roa/seraph's much better. The CDR on athene's really helps zilean power up since he needs high CDR to be really effective later on in the game. With roa seraph's you don't have room for CDR unless you skip hourglass, but games are rare where hourglass is ever a bad buy to finish a build.
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On July 02 2014 19:15 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 18:35 Velocirapture wrote:On July 02 2014 18:07 turdburgler wrote:
the thing that worries me about the turret and xp changes is that in solo q bot lane is going to become even more pointless. currently its the easiest lane to just chill under your tower and farm out the lane, stronger towers make that even easier. because junglers and mids maintain a strength and level advantage over you for so long ganking is really easy bot lane, especially if the other team is really pushed up.
its almost getting to the point where i dont see any value in playing anything strong early in bot lane, the tiny CS advantage you can eek out before it pushes to tower is irrelevant compared to the risk of opening yourself up to easy ganks, The only ADCs with decent early games that have been in meta are the ones who dont fall off like Lucian or have enormous late game power spikes like Twitch. The experience I have is that the laning phase bot is almost 100% in the hands of the support while the ADC might as well be a farming bot until 30 mins. Even more distressing is that this seems to be what Riot is going for given their posts on this matter and the recent changes. Buckle in or change roles because I think it will stay this way or get worse until next season. This patch I have been playing Zilean mid a lot and I gotta say his mana costs make me lol. 310 mana for one Q-W-Q combo. 175 mana for ult and 80 for slow. He is the only champion where I can go Seraphs + ROA and still have to manage mana carefully without blue. Fun as heck though and the damage can be really good if played well. Zilean needs a pool, but you'll find athene's roa/seraph's much better. The CDR on athene's really helps zilean power up since he needs high CDR to be really effective later on in the game. With roa seraph's you don't have room for CDR unless you skip hourglass, but games are rare where hourglass is ever a bad buy to finish a build.
I agree. After trying every combination I find Athenes/Seraphs to be the strongest combination I was simply pointing out the absurdity of going OOM with a 3k mana pool. As for viability, I actually don't agree with the other guy's opinion that his utility is not great in this meta and if Karma's poke isn't considered oppressive in lane then i dont see how a slight modification of Zilean's mana costs would be OP. I definitely wouldn't lower it to Ziggs/Vel'Koz levels though (40 mana Qs). Honestly I doubt anybody at riot has even thought about him is all.
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dam i want to play Mao !! I already had fun with him without this rework.. he willb e awesome to play :D
<3 troll pool vlad
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On July 02 2014 19:41 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 19:15 Amui wrote:On July 02 2014 18:35 Velocirapture wrote:On July 02 2014 18:07 turdburgler wrote:
the thing that worries me about the turret and xp changes is that in solo q bot lane is going to become even more pointless. currently its the easiest lane to just chill under your tower and farm out the lane, stronger towers make that even easier. because junglers and mids maintain a strength and level advantage over you for so long ganking is really easy bot lane, especially if the other team is really pushed up.
its almost getting to the point where i dont see any value in playing anything strong early in bot lane, the tiny CS advantage you can eek out before it pushes to tower is irrelevant compared to the risk of opening yourself up to easy ganks, The only ADCs with decent early games that have been in meta are the ones who dont fall off like Lucian or have enormous late game power spikes like Twitch. The experience I have is that the laning phase bot is almost 100% in the hands of the support while the ADC might as well be a farming bot until 30 mins. Even more distressing is that this seems to be what Riot is going for given their posts on this matter and the recent changes. Buckle in or change roles because I think it will stay this way or get worse until next season. This patch I have been playing Zilean mid a lot and I gotta say his mana costs make me lol. 310 mana for one Q-W-Q combo. 175 mana for ult and 80 for slow. He is the only champion where I can go Seraphs + ROA and still have to manage mana carefully without blue. Fun as heck though and the damage can be really good if played well. Zilean needs a pool, but you'll find athene's roa/seraph's much better. The CDR on athene's really helps zilean power up since he needs high CDR to be really effective later on in the game. With roa seraph's you don't have room for CDR unless you skip hourglass, but games are rare where hourglass is ever a bad buy to finish a build. I agree. After trying every combination I find Athenes/Seraphs to be the strongest combination I was simply pointing out the absurdity of going OOM with a 3k mana pool. As for viability, I actually don't agree with the other guy's opinion that his utility is not great in this meta and if Karma's poke isn't considered oppressive in lane then i dont see how a slight modification of Zilean's mana costs would be OP. I definitely wouldn't lower it to Ziggs/Vel'Koz levels though (40 mana Qs). Honestly I doubt anybody at riot has even thought about him is all.
I assume they have since there are multiple red posts about how his rework is too much and won't be started until next year. Also they don't like his laning as you can't do much against his Q except not be in range to have it cast on you.
Non-interactive oppressive laning phase with other toxic elements - rito speak
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If my aim is to get a kill before level 3 on my lane, health is better than armor for yellow runes right ?
If I remember correctly, armor is supposed to be "better" when you have the time to regen a lot of HP ? I start with 3 health potions though and usually i use them very fast (like 2 before level 3). Is that enough to make armor runes more effective than HP ones ?
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On July 02 2014 20:13 miicah wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 19:41 Velocirapture wrote:On July 02 2014 19:15 Amui wrote:On July 02 2014 18:35 Velocirapture wrote:On July 02 2014 18:07 turdburgler wrote:
the thing that worries me about the turret and xp changes is that in solo q bot lane is going to become even more pointless. currently its the easiest lane to just chill under your tower and farm out the lane, stronger towers make that even easier. because junglers and mids maintain a strength and level advantage over you for so long ganking is really easy bot lane, especially if the other team is really pushed up.
its almost getting to the point where i dont see any value in playing anything strong early in bot lane, the tiny CS advantage you can eek out before it pushes to tower is irrelevant compared to the risk of opening yourself up to easy ganks, The only ADCs with decent early games that have been in meta are the ones who dont fall off like Lucian or have enormous late game power spikes like Twitch. The experience I have is that the laning phase bot is almost 100% in the hands of the support while the ADC might as well be a farming bot until 30 mins. Even more distressing is that this seems to be what Riot is going for given their posts on this matter and the recent changes. Buckle in or change roles because I think it will stay this way or get worse until next season. This patch I have been playing Zilean mid a lot and I gotta say his mana costs make me lol. 310 mana for one Q-W-Q combo. 175 mana for ult and 80 for slow. He is the only champion where I can go Seraphs + ROA and still have to manage mana carefully without blue. Fun as heck though and the damage can be really good if played well. Zilean needs a pool, but you'll find athene's roa/seraph's much better. The CDR on athene's really helps zilean power up since he needs high CDR to be really effective later on in the game. With roa seraph's you don't have room for CDR unless you skip hourglass, but games are rare where hourglass is ever a bad buy to finish a build. I agree. After trying every combination I find Athenes/Seraphs to be the strongest combination I was simply pointing out the absurdity of going OOM with a 3k mana pool. As for viability, I actually don't agree with the other guy's opinion that his utility is not great in this meta and if Karma's poke isn't considered oppressive in lane then i dont see how a slight modification of Zilean's mana costs would be OP. I definitely wouldn't lower it to Ziggs/Vel'Koz levels though (40 mana Qs). Honestly I doubt anybody at riot has even thought about him is all. I assume they have since there are multiple red posts about how his rework is too much and won't be started until next year. Also they don't like his laning as you can't do much against his Q except not be in range to have it cast on you. Non-interactive oppressive laning phase with other toxic elements - rito speak
Thanks for the heads up. I am pretty good about following the red tracker and have not seen any reference to Zilean in a while. Ill do a quick search to see what I have missed.
Edit: I found the Meddler interview where he says they are reworking Zilean but we wont see it until next year because Poppy comes first. I dont know if a full rework is necessary but I am excited to see what they come up with.
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It's not like Annie gives no counterplay to Q or W apart from "not be in range", duh. At least with the countdown you can use shields or MR buffs to reduce its damage. If they said "his range is too great and provides great zoning" that'd be something else.
About armour vs HP, it's been calculated that against mostly physical damage armour > HP at level 2 or something like that.
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EPT
