• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:22
CEST 18:22
KST 01:22
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple2BSL Season 2312Weekly Cups (Sep 7-12): SHIN, ByuN, MaxPax double down1StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon101Weekly Cups (Aug 30-Sep 7): herO thrives amid growing schism10
StarCraft 2
General
How do you feel about the StarCraft shooter announcement at BlizzCon 2026? Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple The Death of Cheese: From a Professional Cheeser
Tourneys
2026 GSTL Grand Finals ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 544 Double Trouble The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 543 Enhanced Defenses Mutation # 542 The Ascended
Brood War
General
Bot on ladder Syncronization issues and can't find games an AI researcher's take on the ladder bot NaDa's Body BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro8 Day 2 [ASL22] Ro8 Day 1 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [IPSL] IPSL is Back With Winter 26-27!
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne EVE Corporation Diablo IV
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Artificial Intelligence Thread All you football fans (soccer)!
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Violent-Cooperative Play and…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 7279 users

[Patch 4.10] Nidalee/Skarner Rework General Discussion - P…

Forum Index > LoL General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 93 94 95 96 97 104 Next
red_
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8474 Posts
June 29 2014 19:20 GMT
#1881
On June 30 2014 04:18 cLutZ wrote:
When did theorycrafting become derogatory? Am I old? Do people not even know about the ElitistJerks forums?


LoL determines the use of everything associated with it, no matter where it came from. Them's the rules.
How did the experience of working at Mr Burns' Nuclear Plant influence Homer's composition of the Iliad and Odyssey?
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35174 Posts
June 29 2014 19:21 GMT
#1882
On June 30 2014 04:20 red_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 30 2014 04:18 cLutZ wrote:
When did theorycrafting become derogatory? Am I old? Do people not even know about the ElitistJerks forums?


LoL determines the use of everything associated with it, no matter where it came from. Them's the rules.

LoL ruined "proc" for me.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23413 Posts
June 29 2014 19:22 GMT
#1883
On June 30 2014 04:20 Gahlo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 30 2014 04:13 Slayer91 wrote:
On June 30 2014 04:09 Gahlo wrote:
On June 30 2014 04:03 Slayer91 wrote:
On June 30 2014 03:17 obesechicken13 wrote:
On June 30 2014 02:16 Scip wrote:
On June 30 2014 02:00 Slayer91 wrote:
i just got a warning because princexizor most likely reported me LOL
i guess its fair though because i got obesechicken warned for diagnosing my salinity

Someone read that entire fucking exchange and thought that that was the post that crossed the line? HAHAHAHA

That was totally worth it.
I wanted to report you for being a shit poster but didn't see the option other than low quality post history so refrained. At least I think I did.

On June 29 2014 22:23 Slayer91 wrote:
On June 28 2014 10:30 PrinceXizor wrote:
On June 28 2014 10:25 wei2coolman wrote:
On June 28 2014 10:21 PrinceXizor wrote:
On June 28 2014 10:15 wei2coolman wrote:
[quote]
Nah, that was the same sentiment in the entire history of LoL. Twitch is just a tank buster.
[quote]
this sounds like the Rengar complaint.
Where's the TL outcry that Garen is stupidly op'd and wants Riot to nerf the living shit out of him?

he's one of the few champions with a fair established and unique power curve, hard to be mad at him for being good at his speciality and little else. when rengar insta kills someone they typically continue to do so all game, and when they get tanky they can continue to be as effective all game due to his scaling. garen peaks and then falls off.

Garen hardly falls off, he scales great into lategame, the difference is his scaling turns into how tanky he can get, as opposed damage.

and pure tankyness with little else isn't exactly very strong in the late game. you need damage in the late game. having almost no damage in the late game makes him more irrelevant than other characters that can be tanky and deal damage. thats why he trails off. yeah he gets tankier than everyone, but he doesn't DO much outside of that tankyness. no lockdown, no disables except a melee range silence and little damage.

a theoretical champion that never dies except to towers/baron and only deals 100 melee dps with all his abilities and has no other form of utility isn't going to DO anything for your team.in the late game.he'll be useful early because the damage is equivalent to others at the time and he's not going to die. mid game similar things, the early team fights he's still a threat to the squishies who are forced to act around him, but once they get say a GA or something to kite them with defensive stats, they aren't going to be worried much, because they can win the 5v4 and then ignore you late.

garens late game is about maximizing his silence and being scary looking, whether or not thats enough to be better than other tanky champions depends on the value you put on his silence compared to everything they can do.

when you pick garen you are picking him knowing he falls off late compared to his early and mid game power. if you pick him expecting him to scale into the late game just as strong relatively as he is in the early and mid game, then you are making a mistake drafting him.


holy shit is someone talking about garen and not one of you knows what the fuck you are talking about

chicken pls this was following a discussion about garens lategame damage learn to read plss

You're one of the worst posters I've ever seen just because of how confrontational you can be even though your points are valid.

If it were up to me I'd permaban you but I doubt it'd matter. You'd just make another account.


1: does anyone contest the point that nobody who was talking about garen had actually played with or as garen consistently enough to draw a conclusion? Seemed like terrible theorycrafting to me. Saying garen does nothing lategame is what people were saying back in 2011
2: being confrnotational is not necessarily a bad thing when it comes to discussion because if im polite and sensitive everyone will just assume im agreeing with them
it also takes extra effort to protect the egos of people who i believe are posting nonsense

1) Isn't that the point of theorycrafting? The fact that it's threory? I didn't read the theorycrafting, and I'm not saying it was good, but isn't it more productive to go "This theory crafting is bad, I have practical experience, and here is how things are." Instead of coming into the conversation going "Do you even rift?"

2) That just sounds to me like you aren't very adept at disagreeing without being disagreeable.


theorycrafting is sort of a derogatory term for badly constructed theory from a shallow viewpoint. I provided solid analysis as to why I disagreed with the points, the fact that im being arguably overly aggressive I suppose is a personal choice but its an internet forum and I don't personally like to read boring posts so I try to spice things up

personally I view "you guys don't know what your talking about" as an introductory statement that explains the rest of my post, I guess its technically ad hominem but it explains clearly that I disagreed with most of what was said and not specific details

Pls, I thought you didn't believe in derogatory terms.


I do but its all about context and intent also.

On June 30 2014 04:18 cLutZ wrote:
When did theorycrafting become derogatory? Am I old? Do people not even know about the ElitistJerks forums?


elitist jerks did it properly though, so it was just theory i guess, i dunno its getting to be semantics at this point.
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35174 Posts
June 29 2014 19:24 GMT
#1884
EJ was all about the mathcraft, yo.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
June 29 2014 19:25 GMT
#1885
People at least understand that 'craft' comes from the suffix of Warcraft right? Right?
Freeeeeeedom
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35174 Posts
June 29 2014 19:28 GMT
#1886
On June 30 2014 04:25 cLutZ wrote:
People at least understand that 'craft' comes from the suffix of Warcraft right? Right?

I always assumed it was because you were using the theory or math to create an idea.
Fildun
Profile Joined December 2012
Netherlands4124 Posts
June 29 2014 19:36 GMT
#1887
On June 30 2014 04:00 Scip wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 30 2014 03:56 Fildun wrote:
On June 30 2014 03:24 Scip wrote:
Says the person who shamelessly vomited mental diarrhea into my Skarner thread breaking the rules I set for that thread, ending with an epic twitch meme.

This isn't relevant at all and you know that as much as I do. You could maybe tell us what you think of Teut as a poster but this is just pointless crap.

If you're salty about him shitting up your thread that's fine but that hasn't got anything to do with his opinions about Teut.

If he wants to call out this forum's moderation for being lenient he should probably look at his own posts first

Why would that be.
I mean I hear this quite often but I never get the whole "you gotta do it good yourself before you can criticize others" mentality.
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35174 Posts
June 29 2014 19:38 GMT
#1888
On June 30 2014 04:36 Fildun wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 30 2014 04:00 Scip wrote:
On June 30 2014 03:56 Fildun wrote:
On June 30 2014 03:24 Scip wrote:
Says the person who shamelessly vomited mental diarrhea into my Skarner thread breaking the rules I set for that thread, ending with an epic twitch meme.

This isn't relevant at all and you know that as much as I do. You could maybe tell us what you think of Teut as a poster but this is just pointless crap.

If you're salty about him shitting up your thread that's fine but that hasn't got anything to do with his opinions about Teut.

If he wants to call out this forum's moderation for being lenient he should probably look at his own posts first

Why would that be.
I mean I hear this quite often but I never get the whole "you gotta do it good yourself before you can criticize others" mentality.

Nobody like authority that doesn't follow it's own rules.
VayneAuthority
Profile Joined October 2012
United States8983 Posts
June 29 2014 19:46 GMT
#1889
THE TROLL WITH THE BIGGEST CLUB BECOMES KING THATS THE RULES
I come in for the scraps
Fildun
Profile Joined December 2012
Netherlands4124 Posts
June 29 2014 19:47 GMT
#1890
Obesechicken's post was dumb and counter-productive but Scip's was even worse.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23413 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-29 19:54:17
June 29 2014 19:50 GMT
#1891
i think your posts are counter-productive. What's wrong with getting your issues with people out in the open? much better than being passive aggressive and shit

On June 30 2014 04:36 Fildun wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 30 2014 04:00 Scip wrote:
On June 30 2014 03:56 Fildun wrote:
On June 30 2014 03:24 Scip wrote:
Says the person who shamelessly vomited mental diarrhea into my Skarner thread breaking the rules I set for that thread, ending with an epic twitch meme.

This isn't relevant at all and you know that as much as I do. You could maybe tell us what you think of Teut as a poster but this is just pointless crap.

If you're salty about him shitting up your thread that's fine but that hasn't got anything to do with his opinions about Teut.

If he wants to call out this forum's moderation for being lenient he should probably look at his own posts first

Why would that be.
I mean I hear this quite often but I never get the whole "you gotta do it good yourself before you can criticize others" mentality.


when you're suggesting that one person is banned and the other is a shitposter then it would make sense to examine the posts of the person accusing
if that person is himself a shit poster we could then discard his opinions but if he is an esteemed and respected member of the community who smokes a pipe and wears a grey haired wig so he seems super wise maybe it's best to at least give some thought to it
Fildun
Profile Joined December 2012
Netherlands4124 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-29 19:58:12
June 29 2014 19:55 GMT
#1892
It's one of the easiest ways to kill discussion immediately.

Edit: No, it would make sense to actually examine the freaking accusation instead of immediately playing the man.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23413 Posts
June 29 2014 19:59 GMT
#1893
On June 30 2014 04:55 Fildun wrote:
It's one of the easiest ways to kill discussion immediately.

Edit: No, it would make sense to actually examine the freaking accusation instead of immediately playing the man.


the accusation was that scip was a shit poster
being a highly subjective term then it makes sense to examine both.
also i dont see what discussion it killed, it created a discussion, clearly obese chicken wasn't acutally going to respond to any of my points since he agreed that they were valid
Paljas
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6926 Posts
June 29 2014 20:04 GMT
#1894
i am pretty sure that all of you guys are literally mussolini
TL+ Member
Fildun
Profile Joined December 2012
Netherlands4124 Posts
June 29 2014 20:06 GMT
#1895
On June 30 2014 04:59 Slayer91 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 30 2014 04:55 Fildun wrote:
It's one of the easiest ways to kill discussion immediately.

Edit: No, it would make sense to actually examine the freaking accusation instead of immediately playing the man.


the accusation was that scip was a shit poster
being a highly subjective term then it makes sense to examine both.
also i dont see what discussion it killed, it created a discussion, clearly obese chicken wasn't acutally going to respond to any of my points since he agreed that they were valid

I believe his accusation was that you were overly aggressive when stating your valid points. Seeing that the response was a personal attack, yes, discussion was indeed killed.
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
June 29 2014 20:09 GMT
#1896
On June 30 2014 04:59 Slayer91 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 30 2014 04:55 Fildun wrote:
It's one of the easiest ways to kill discussion immediately.

Edit: No, it would make sense to actually examine the freaking accusation instead of immediately playing the man.


the accusation was that scip was a shit poster
being a highly subjective term then it makes sense to examine both.
also i dont see what discussion it killed, it created a discussion, clearly obese chicken wasn't acutally going to respond to any of my points since he agreed that they were valid

Nah, I misquoted. I was calling you a shit poster. Not scip.

I don't respond to your points because I think you're an asshole and not worth really talking to or getting angry over. Like I can argue that sunfire cape's build path isn't good even though you say it is. What'll come from that? You'll just say no and say all my points are stupid.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
Mafab
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
Germany458 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-29 20:16:53
June 29 2014 20:16 GMT
#1897
On June 29 2014 22:09 Slayer91 wrote:
so i havent been reading recently and it looks like things have gotten out of hand withotu me to call them bad
so far from what i gather skimming the last few pages

gahlo: mad cause bad
px: mad cause bad
zerg_russian: DID I TELL ANYONE I HAVE A PSYCH DEGREE YET????

HURR DURR GUISE THE SYSTEM DOESNT EXACTLY GIVE ME MY TRUE SKILL LEVEL THE IMAGINARY NUMBERS ASSIGNED TO ME ARENT HIGH ENOUGH RITO PLS

oh, need to update
px: mad cause bad and is a terrible victim of society which irrationally hates him and argues with him despite his superior intelligence and well argued points
if px was a woman he'd be a be a raging feminazi for sure

User was warned for this post

That statement earned you TL+
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23413 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-29 20:49:21
June 29 2014 20:43 GMT
#1898
On June 30 2014 05:09 obesechicken13 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 30 2014 04:59 Slayer91 wrote:
On June 30 2014 04:55 Fildun wrote:
It's one of the easiest ways to kill discussion immediately.

Edit: No, it would make sense to actually examine the freaking accusation instead of immediately playing the man.


the accusation was that scip was a shit poster
being a highly subjective term then it makes sense to examine both.
also i dont see what discussion it killed, it created a discussion, clearly obese chicken wasn't acutally going to respond to any of my points since he agreed that they were valid

Nah, I misquoted. I was calling you a shit poster. Not scip.

I don't respond to your points because I think you're an asshole and not worth really talking to or getting angry over. Like I can argue that sunfire cape's build path isn't good even though you say it is. What'll come from that? You'll just say no and say all my points are stupid.


you're being pretty cynical, you're arguing against imaginary me and not making any points and then complain when i don't respect your arguments without making any points
a bit self defeating isnt it
also a convenient self-fulfilling prophecy

i mean if you can't prove that you're right to if not me, someone else, then maybe you are either really bad or arguing or wrong. The thing about being wrong is that you have to change your views and your personal way of playing which you like because it was your ideas and having to use someone elses ideas doesn't feel good, especially if you hate that guy.

i bet zerg russian would consider this some sort of self defense mechanism

i mean i used to like going damage items and thought sunfire was shit but trial and error proved that sunfire was the best and i had to accept the cold hard truth
ZERG_RUSSIAN
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
10417 Posts
June 29 2014 20:51 GMT
#1899
On June 30 2014 04:36 Fildun wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 30 2014 04:00 Scip wrote:
On June 30 2014 03:56 Fildun wrote:
On June 30 2014 03:24 Scip wrote:
Says the person who shamelessly vomited mental diarrhea into my Skarner thread breaking the rules I set for that thread, ending with an epic twitch meme.

This isn't relevant at all and you know that as much as I do. You could maybe tell us what you think of Teut as a poster but this is just pointless crap.

If you're salty about him shitting up your thread that's fine but that hasn't got anything to do with his opinions about Teut.

If he wants to call out this forum's moderation for being lenient he should probably look at his own posts first

Why would that be.
I mean I hear this quite often but I never get the whole "you gotta do it good yourself before you can criticize others" mentality.

"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

Jesus started it.
I'm on GOLD CHAIN
ShaLLoW[baY]
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada12499 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-29 21:01:57
June 29 2014 21:01 GMT
#1900
On June 30 2014 04:18 cLutZ wrote:
When did theorycrafting become derogatory? Am I old? Do people not even know about the ElitistJerks forums?


since the cancerous League community ruined it. Theorycraft came from WC/BW strategy discussion on these forums, then everyone just ruined it, like "meta" and "mechanics".
ALEXISONFIRE ARE FUCKING BACK (sAviOr for life)
Prev 1 93 94 95 96 97 104 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV Invitational
11:00
WardiTV 10 Playoffs
ByuN vs ClassicLIVE!
Clem vs RogueLIVE!
SHIN vs TBD
WardiTV1460
IntoTheiNu 783
TaKeTV 428
IndyStarCraft 235
Rex167
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 235
Rex 167
BRAT_OK 29
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 46403
Shuttle 1282
BeSt 900
Mini 570
actioN 429
ggaemo 182
Sea.KH 81
Dewaltoss 71
Barracks 58
Hyun 46
[ Show more ]
sSak 44
ToSsGirL 40
910 33
NaDa 30
soO 28
zelot 28
Bale 23
Trap 20
Rock 19
yabsab 12
Free 12
Dota 2
Gorgc6941
Dendi696
BananaSlamJamma118
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor317
Other Games
singsing1579
B2W.Neo927
Beastyqt427
ArmadaUGS136
KnowMe135
Mew2King54
Trikslyr44
Chillindude5
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream17062
StarCraft 2
ComeBackTV 1632
StarCraft: Brood War
Afreeca ASL 279
Other Games
BasetradeTV84
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH256
• StrangeGG 29
• Airneanach14
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 24
• Michael_bg 12
• FirePhoenix8
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV374
League of Legends
• Nemesis5048
• Jankos3077
Other Games
• Shiphtur275
Upcoming Events
AI Arena Tournament
38m
BSL: Ladder Tournament
2h 38m
GSL
15h 38m
Yamato Cup
22h 38m
BSL Open Qualifier
1d 2h
BSL Open Qualifier
1d 2h
Replay Cast
1d 7h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 17h
Soma vs Jaedong
WardiTV Weekly
1d 18h
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 23h
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Leta vs Soulkey
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
Kung Fu Cup
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Online Event
6 days
FEL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #5 - GSA
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Calamity Invitational
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Custodian Cup
Copium Cup
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.