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On June 20 2014 08:26 Goumindong wrote:Its not. It has 40% attack speed and 25 AD plus its on hit plus its active. That isn't a lot of stats since the proc cannot crit. Its still very gold efficient (the passive is worth around 50-80 "can't crit" AD depending on the enemys HP). But the total stats on BotRK is 2650 before the active and passive. The total stats on BT is 4905 with a full shield. You would have to value the active and passive on BotRK at 2255 gold in order for BotRK to be as slot efficient as BT
Wait, 50-80 AD? Slot efficiency doesn't come into play until later in the game, at which point everybody has at least 1,500 HP, and tankier targets will have over 3k. The passive won't do as little as 50 damage until your target has 625 health, at which point you're two shotting them anyway if they're a squishy. Against targets with 3k HP, the passive is doing 240 damage. The active also gives decent burst and great utility, particularly with the randuin's nerf.
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If money is an issue, Gambit can definitely ask to be compensated for the match they missed due to riot not informing them of the change in venue. For all likelyhood Riot is in violation of the contract by not informing them of the schedule change in time
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On June 20 2014 10:52 Goumindong wrote:
If money is an issue, Gambit can definitely ask to be compensated for the match they missed due to riot not informing them of the change in venue. For all likelyhood Riot is in violation of the contract by not informing them of the schedule change in time
something tells me that absolutely will not happen. gambit has 0 negotiating power with riot.
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On June 20 2014 09:12 SagaZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 07:58 Alaric wrote:
Vi is plain shit when she's behind because like Xin Zhao or Pantheon she's all-in once she commits, no escapes, nothing. ??? The only melee champions that can go out after committing are Kha'zix and. .Vi... somewhat. R in, Q out. I've heard quite a few people repeat this but it sounds like a fancy way to say "yeah, she's melee"
This is silly. Tons of melee champions can. Even ones like Shyvana or Singed who can just simply run away.
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On June 20 2014 10:51 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 08:26 Goumindong wrote:On June 20 2014 08:16 GolemMadness wrote:
BotRK isn't slot efficient? What? Its not. It has 40% attack speed and 25 AD plus its on hit plus its active. That isn't a lot of stats since the proc cannot crit. Its still very gold efficient (the passive is worth around 50-80 "can't crit" AD depending on the enemys HP). But the total stats on BotRK is 2650 before the active and passive. The total stats on BT is 4905 with a full shield. You would have to value the active and passive on BotRK at 2255 gold in order for BotRK to be as slot efficient as BT Wait, 50-80 AD? Slot efficiency doesn't come into play until later in the game, at which point everybody has at least 1,500 HP, and tankier targets will have over 3k. The passive won't do as little as 50 damage until your target has 625 health, at which point you're two shotting them anyway if they're a squishy. Against targets with 3k HP, the passive is doing 240 damage. The active also gives decent burst and great utility, particularly with the randuin's nerf.
Against a target with 3 K max EHP the bonus AD, over the course of the fight will average around 120 damage, be generous and say that they have no heal/barriers/whatever which they can use at low HP and we factor in the minimum damage you will hit them for and we can call it 140 damage/hit average.... if no one else does any other damage to the target. That is unrealistic but you're right in that that is a bit higher than 80 can't crit AD.
If you've got Shiv and IE then 80 AD hits for an average of 134 per hit. So assuming their entire team has 3k HP and no one else does damage to them then yes its worth about 80 "can crit" damage as opposed to 50-80 "can't crit" damage.
Oh and you also can't have any flat AD ratios.
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On June 20 2014 10:50 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 10:43 Goumindong wrote:
1) readability/ease of understanding. If you have 10% cdr its really easy to realize what this means right now. Same for 1 armor. But it's not so easy for CDR with the proposed change.
I don't see this as being a good argument because of how Armor and MR already work. Really if you had a "CDR Rating" stat that scaled CDR % the way Armor and MR scale your physical and magical % damage reduction, it would be fine.
Fair, though i have less faith in the general populous to understand
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On June 20 2014 11:00 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 10:51 GolemMadness wrote:On June 20 2014 08:26 Goumindong wrote:On June 20 2014 08:16 GolemMadness wrote:
BotRK isn't slot efficient? What? Its not. It has 40% attack speed and 25 AD plus its on hit plus its active. That isn't a lot of stats since the proc cannot crit. Its still very gold efficient (the passive is worth around 50-80 "can't crit" AD depending on the enemys HP). But the total stats on BotRK is 2650 before the active and passive. The total stats on BT is 4905 with a full shield. You would have to value the active and passive on BotRK at 2255 gold in order for BotRK to be as slot efficient as BT Wait, 50-80 AD? Slot efficiency doesn't come into play until later in the game, at which point everybody has at least 1,500 HP, and tankier targets will have over 3k. The passive won't do as little as 50 damage until your target has 625 health, at which point you're two shotting them anyway if they're a squishy. Against targets with 3k HP, the passive is doing 240 damage. The active also gives decent burst and great utility, particularly with the randuin's nerf. Against a target with 3 K max EHP the bonus AD, over the course of the fight will average around 120 damage, be generous and say that they have no heal/barriers/whatever which they can use at low HP and we factor in the minimum damage you will hit them for and we can call it 140 damage/hit average.... if no one else does any other damage to the target. That is unrealistic but you're right in that that is a bit higher than 80 can't crit AD. If you've got Shiv and IE then 80 AD hits for an average of 134 per hit. So assuming their entire team has 3k HP and no one else does damage to them then yes its worth about 80 "can crit" damage as opposed to 50-80 "can't crit" damage. Oh and you also can't have any flat AD ratios.
Ok, let's say that you only fight people with 1,500 max HP, so the passive is only worth 40 can crit AD. With the 25 AD that BotRK gives, that's 65 AD. So BT gives 15 more AD, up to a 405 health shield and 5% extra lifesteal vs 40% attack speed and the BotRK active.
15 AD, 405 health and 5% lifesteal are worth 1,896 gold. 40% attack speed is worth 1,200. So in the absolute best case scenario, BT gives 600 gold more stats, and BotRK has the active.
BT might be stronger on champions that rely on AD ratios more since for abilities it's worth 55 more AD, but you'll also usually be fighting tankier targets as an ADC, and you won't always have the full shield from BT, and you need to be level 18 for it to be at 405 health.
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On June 20 2014 10:50 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 10:43 Goumindong wrote:
1) readability/ease of understanding. If you have 10% cdr its really easy to realize what this means right now. Same for 1 armor. But it's not so easy for CDR with the proposed change.
I don't see this as being a good argument because of how Armor and MR already work. Really if you had a "CDR Rating" stat that scaled CDR % the way Armor and MR scale your physical and magical % damage reduction, it would be fine.
Except resists are always 1:1% EHP.
http://community.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/live-gameplay/7BjBdGkQ-411-live-gameplay-patch-forecast
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On June 20 2014 12:20 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 10:50 TheYango wrote:On June 20 2014 10:43 Goumindong wrote:
1) readability/ease of understanding. If you have 10% cdr its really easy to realize what this means right now. Same for 1 armor. But it's not so easy for CDR with the proposed change.
I don't see this as being a good argument because of how Armor and MR already work. Really if you had a "CDR Rating" stat that scaled CDR % the way Armor and MR scale your physical and magical % damage reduction, it would be fine. Except resists are always 1:1% EHP.http://community.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/live-gameplay/7BjBdGkQ-411-live-gameplay-patch-forecast
?????????????????????????????
The proposed CDR system where cooldown = base cooldown * 100/(100+CDR) would function exactly the same then
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On June 20 2014 11:29 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 11:00 Goumindong wrote:On June 20 2014 10:51 GolemMadness wrote:On June 20 2014 08:26 Goumindong wrote:On June 20 2014 08:16 GolemMadness wrote:
BotRK isn't slot efficient? What? Its not. It has 40% attack speed and 25 AD plus its on hit plus its active. That isn't a lot of stats since the proc cannot crit. Its still very gold efficient (the passive is worth around 50-80 "can't crit" AD depending on the enemys HP). But the total stats on BotRK is 2650 before the active and passive. The total stats on BT is 4905 with a full shield. You would have to value the active and passive on BotRK at 2255 gold in order for BotRK to be as slot efficient as BT Wait, 50-80 AD? Slot efficiency doesn't come into play until later in the game, at which point everybody has at least 1,500 HP, and tankier targets will have over 3k. The passive won't do as little as 50 damage until your target has 625 health, at which point you're two shotting them anyway if they're a squishy. Against targets with 3k HP, the passive is doing 240 damage. The active also gives decent burst and great utility, particularly with the randuin's nerf. Against a target with 3 K max EHP the bonus AD, over the course of the fight will average around 120 damage, be generous and say that they have no heal/barriers/whatever which they can use at low HP and we factor in the minimum damage you will hit them for and we can call it 140 damage/hit average.... if no one else does any other damage to the target. That is unrealistic but you're right in that that is a bit higher than 80 can't crit AD. If you've got Shiv and IE then 80 AD hits for an average of 134 per hit. So assuming their entire team has 3k HP and no one else does damage to them then yes its worth about 80 "can crit" damage as opposed to 50-80 "can't crit" damage. Oh and you also can't have any flat AD ratios. Ok, let's say that you only fight people with 1,500 max HP, so the passive is only worth 40 can crit AD. With the 25 AD that BotRK gives, that's 65 AD. So BT gives 15 more AD, up to a 405 health shield and 5% extra lifesteal vs 40% attack speed and the BotRK active. 15 AD, 405 health and 5% lifesteal are worth 1,896 gold. 40% attack speed is worth 1,200. So in the absolute best case scenario, BT gives 600 gold more stats, and BotRK has the active. BT might be stronger on champions that rely on AD ratios more since for abilities it's worth 55 more AD, but you'll also usually be fighting tankier targets as an ADC, and you won't always have the full shield from BT, and you need to be level 18 for it to be at 405 health.
A shield is still a shield and ive yet to see anyone not be able to keep it up before a fight bth.
Also bork is going to get weaker as they lose hp since its passive is current health, bt will always be the same strength in comparison
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On June 20 2014 12:57 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 12:20 Gahlo wrote:On June 20 2014 10:50 TheYango wrote:On June 20 2014 10:43 Goumindong wrote:
1) readability/ease of understanding. If you have 10% cdr its really easy to realize what this means right now. Same for 1 armor. But it's not so easy for CDR with the proposed change.
I don't see this as being a good argument because of how Armor and MR already work. Really if you had a "CDR Rating" stat that scaled CDR % the way Armor and MR scale your physical and magical % damage reduction, it would be fine. Except resists are always 1:1% EHP.http://community.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/live-gameplay/7BjBdGkQ-411-live-gameplay-patch-forecast ????????????????????????????? The proposed CDR system where cooldown = base cooldown * 100/(100+CDR) would function exactly the same then
Incorrect. Under that model buying 10% CDR would result in a cooldown modifier of 90.90...%.
20% would lead to 83.3...%
30% would lead to 76.9120...%
etc.
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On June 20 2014 09:12 SagaZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 07:58 Alaric wrote:
Vi is plain shit when she's behind because like Xin Zhao or Pantheon she's all-in once she commits, no escapes, nothing. ??? The only melee champions that can go out after committing are Kha'zix and. .Vi... somewhat. R in, Q out. I've heard quite a few people repeat this but it sounds like a fancy way to say "yeah, she's melee"
One of the best things about Jax and Jayce is that they can disengage a Tryndamere after Tryn pops ult. It's like he ults, then you Q away to a minion as Jax or E him away as Jayce(with Jayce you need him to burn E to get close to you and not have it back up).
That's how these guys aren't all in. With Vi, if you go into a fight vs a WW, or Fiora, or Nasus, or Tryn, there's a good chance you'll die running away or at the least take more damage than Jax.
I see guys in the LCS play Renekton and they never trade with Renekton's E because they're afraid of a gank, but they'll use Q and W and then when the gank shows, they just dash away. The argument is that you can't do that with Vi. I guess cuz her Q takes time to charge up or she needs it to trade. Dunno.
On June 20 2014 09:21 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 09:13 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 20 2014 09:11 Goumindong wrote:On June 20 2014 09:01 PrinceXizor wrote:If you are talking about a first item on a bot laner, why not just get ghostblade, AD arpen crit atk speed move speed cdr. good buildup with GP5 avarice and bruta. On June 20 2014 09:01 cLutZ wrote:
No one buys merc, so there is obviously something wrong. In fact, IMO Blade is probably better for purely defensive purposes in today's metagame (unless a wild Zed appears). I think his point is that merc scimitar is getting a ton of free AD and now gives 80 AD, before it didn't give nearly as much so it was unused. Ghostblade is a fine first item on a botlaner[though the avarice portion hurts it a bit and CDR on Brut] (as is BotRK). They're both very gold efficient and GB has the full mix of multiplicative values. But that doesn't make them particularly slot efficient. Especially if you've already got crit and attack speed (which devalues the on-hit relative to AD and the AS). The reason for this is just because they're cheaper (one of the reasons why you purchase them earlier) I was trying to express earlier that the high end items are now very slot efficient, especially when combined together to provide all of the defensive stats you need (45 MR, ~450 HP, Cleanse) while also having a truckload of damage. And they are, indeed very slot efficient slot efficiency is far from the most important thing to be focusing on. Sure but we were talking about slot efficiency. Obesechicken replied to my post about item efficiency and the problems of support items. Where i suggested that an item that was build, gold, and slot efficient would be overly powerful. He stated that BotRK was all three(and i believe implied it was not OP) and i said that it was neither particularly build efficient (because of the Dagger+Dagger+900 gold finish cost which means either 3 slots and 900 gold, or 1800 in a single go), but also not particularly slot efficient because its slot efficiency compared to the most slot efficient AD items of BT,IE, and Scimitar was kind of low.
Your assumptions were spot on 
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On June 20 2014 10:45 Cixah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 10:41 Amarok wrote:
I was willing to give Riot the benefit of the doubt for the other Gambit situations but that's ridiculously harsh. Just let them reschedule. Gambits situation is so unique any ruling is unlikely to cause unwanted precedents. I think rescheduling Gambit's Games is the best choice. Use the extra 2 hours to have "Fan Games" or "Play with the Pro" events instead. Have Gambit play their games a few weeks later, Just Like MLB does with rain delays.
You really think thousands of people will just sit there and see some random people play 30min games with pros? It's boring as fuk.
While GG situation is suck, I don't think it's fair for Fnatic, Roccat and thousands of people who already spend money and time and schedule to go to LCS.
Moreover, this is not the first time it happened. Did we all forget last split week 6, 4 core members Darien, Diamond, Alex, Genja also had visa issue, and had to be subtitued by Zoro, Nukeduck, etc?
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So..... I queue up for a ranked game. Do picks/bans. Then blug splat on load screen. Okay.... Then I try to reconnect a couple of time, no go, the load screen just goes away. Okay, decide to log out of client, and re-log in.
Now I can't fucking log in. What the fucking hell. Anyone having this issue with this patch?
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On June 20 2014 13:34 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 10:45 Cixah wrote:On June 20 2014 10:41 Amarok wrote:
I was willing to give Riot the benefit of the doubt for the other Gambit situations but that's ridiculously harsh. Just let them reschedule. Gambits situation is so unique any ruling is unlikely to cause unwanted precedents. I think rescheduling Gambit's Games is the best choice. Use the extra 2 hours to have "Fan Games" or "Play with the Pro" events instead. Have Gambit play their games a few weeks later, Just Like MLB does with rain delays. You really think thousands of people will just sit there and see some random people play 30min games with pros? It's boring as fuk. While GG situation is suck, I don't think it's fair for Fnatic, Roccat and thousands of people who already spend money and time and schedule to go to LCS. Moreover, this is not the first time it happened. Did we all forget last split week 6, 4 core members Darien, Diamond, Alex, Genja also had visa issue, and had to be subtitued by Zoro, Nukeduck, etc?
The argument that it isn't fair for the fans to rescedule after they paid is a bit of a farce since they "paid" to see Gambit in that scenario.
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On June 20 2014 13:40 wei2coolman wrote:
So..... I queue up for a ranked game. Do picks/bans. Then blug splat on load screen. Okay.... Then I try to reconnect a couple of time, no go, the load screen just goes away. Okay, decide to log out of client, and re-log in.
Now I can't fucking log in. What the fucking hell. Anyone having this issue with this patch?
Yeah, something pretty similar. I had the problem on last patch too. Been trying to figure out what's going on via support tickets.
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United Kingdom20299 Posts
On June 20 2014 13:05 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 12:57 xes wrote:On June 20 2014 12:20 Gahlo wrote:On June 20 2014 10:50 TheYango wrote:On June 20 2014 10:43 Goumindong wrote:
1) readability/ease of understanding. If you have 10% cdr its really easy to realize what this means right now. Same for 1 armor. But it's not so easy for CDR with the proposed change.
I don't see this as being a good argument because of how Armor and MR already work. Really if you had a "CDR Rating" stat that scaled CDR % the way Armor and MR scale your physical and magical % damage reduction, it would be fine. Except resists are always 1:1% EHP.http://community.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/live-gameplay/7BjBdGkQ-411-live-gameplay-patch-forecast ????????????????????????????? The proposed CDR system where cooldown = base cooldown * 100/(100+CDR) would function exactly the same then Incorrect. Under that model buying 10% CDR would result in a cooldown modifier of 90.90...%. 20% would lead to 83.3...% 30% would lead to 76.9120...% etc.
They want a 50% increase in DPS from spamming one skill with 50% "cdr rating" or for each *1.1x to be worth the same, like +10 armor always is.
That's exactly how armor functions, 30 armor makes you take 76.9% damage, not 70%.
80 armor makes you take 55.5% damage, not 20% damage.
It's just silly exponential scaling because CDR was implemented "backwards". Going from 0% CDR to 5% would be marginally over a 5% DPS increase, but going from 90% to 95% CDR would double dps - for the same cost in stats.
Imagine if going from 90 armor to 95 armor doubled your effective health - that would just be silly, but that's how scaling on CDR is right now. They have to have a cap, though it's somewhat easy to reach if you want it and also due to scaling, pretty much mandatory to hit if you get any CDR - to make your previous CDR investment scale better - but it could arguably function far better as a stat if it worked like armor, +100% CDR rating = +100% DPS from spamming q for example, instead of the way it does
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On June 20 2014 13:43 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 13:34 canikizu wrote:On June 20 2014 10:45 Cixah wrote:On June 20 2014 10:41 Amarok wrote:
I was willing to give Riot the benefit of the doubt for the other Gambit situations but that's ridiculously harsh. Just let them reschedule. Gambits situation is so unique any ruling is unlikely to cause unwanted precedents. I think rescheduling Gambit's Games is the best choice. Use the extra 2 hours to have "Fan Games" or "Play with the Pro" events instead. Have Gambit play their games a few weeks later, Just Like MLB does with rain delays. You really think thousands of people will just sit there and see some random people play 30min games with pros? It's boring as fuk. While GG situation is suck, I don't think it's fair for Fnatic, Roccat and thousands of people who already spend money and time and schedule to go to LCS. Moreover, this is not the first time it happened. Did we all forget last split week 6, 4 core members Darien, Diamond, Alex, Genja also had visa issue, and had to be subtitued by Zoro, Nukeduck, etc? The argument that it isn't fair for the fans to rescedule after they paid is a bit of a farce since they "paid" to see Gambit in that scenario.
There're also people paid to see 2 Fnatic, and 2 Roccat games too. It isn't fair for them x 2.
If you think about it, even if Riot notifies GG 8 weeks in advance, it still takes GG 4-6 weeks to be sure they can actually makes it or not. Meanwhile, Riot still has to do promotion for the London week. If they do promotion with GG in mind and fans also buy tickets, just to find out GG cannot make it, then the situation is the same.
So unless Riot can somehow inform GG about the London week well before the split starts, there's no optimal situation.
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On June 20 2014 13:40 wei2coolman wrote:
So..... I queue up for a ranked game. Do picks/bans. Then blug splat on load screen. Okay.... Then I try to reconnect a couple of time, no go, the load screen just goes away. Okay, decide to log out of client, and re-log in.
Now I can't fucking log in. What the fucking hell. Anyone having this issue with this patch?
I think NA just died. Finished a game, couldn't get to lobby, got kicked out of client and can't log in.
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On June 20 2014 13:03 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 11:29 GolemMadness wrote:On June 20 2014 11:00 Goumindong wrote:On June 20 2014 10:51 GolemMadness wrote:On June 20 2014 08:26 Goumindong wrote:On June 20 2014 08:16 GolemMadness wrote:
BotRK isn't slot efficient? What? Its not. It has 40% attack speed and 25 AD plus its on hit plus its active. That isn't a lot of stats since the proc cannot crit. Its still very gold efficient (the passive is worth around 50-80 "can't crit" AD depending on the enemys HP). But the total stats on BotRK is 2650 before the active and passive. The total stats on BT is 4905 with a full shield. You would have to value the active and passive on BotRK at 2255 gold in order for BotRK to be as slot efficient as BT Wait, 50-80 AD? Slot efficiency doesn't come into play until later in the game, at which point everybody has at least 1,500 HP, and tankier targets will have over 3k. The passive won't do as little as 50 damage until your target has 625 health, at which point you're two shotting them anyway if they're a squishy. Against targets with 3k HP, the passive is doing 240 damage. The active also gives decent burst and great utility, particularly with the randuin's nerf. Against a target with 3 K max EHP the bonus AD, over the course of the fight will average around 120 damage, be generous and say that they have no heal/barriers/whatever which they can use at low HP and we factor in the minimum damage you will hit them for and we can call it 140 damage/hit average.... if no one else does any other damage to the target. That is unrealistic but you're right in that that is a bit higher than 80 can't crit AD. If you've got Shiv and IE then 80 AD hits for an average of 134 per hit. So assuming their entire team has 3k HP and no one else does damage to them then yes its worth about 80 "can crit" damage as opposed to 50-80 "can't crit" damage. Oh and you also can't have any flat AD ratios. Ok, let's say that you only fight people with 1,500 max HP, so the passive is only worth 40 can crit AD. With the 25 AD that BotRK gives, that's 65 AD. So BT gives 15 more AD, up to a 405 health shield and 5% extra lifesteal vs 40% attack speed and the BotRK active. 15 AD, 405 health and 5% lifesteal are worth 1,896 gold. 40% attack speed is worth 1,200. So in the absolute best case scenario, BT gives 600 gold more stats, and BotRK has the active. BT might be stronger on champions that rely on AD ratios more since for abilities it's worth 55 more AD, but you'll also usually be fighting tankier targets as an ADC, and you won't always have the full shield from BT, and you need to be level 18 for it to be at 405 health. A shield is still a shield and ive yet to see anyone not be able to keep it up before a fight bth. Also bork is going to get weaker as they lose hp since its passive is current health, bt will always be the same strength in comparison
That's why we're talking about average AD.
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