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On June 20 2014 09:01 PrinceXizor wrote:If you are talking about a first item on a bot laner, why not just get ghostblade, AD arpen crit atk speed move speed cdr. good buildup with GP5 avarice and bruta. Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 09:01 cLutZ wrote:
No one buys merc, so there is obviously something wrong. In fact, IMO Blade is probably better for purely defensive purposes in today's metagame (unless a wild Zed appears). I think his point is that merc scimitar is getting a ton of free AD and now gives 80 AD, before it didn't give nearly as much so it was unused.
Because you're going to need Vamp for sustain most likely and there's few champions that can walk into a lane with Vamp and Brutalizer outside of Riven and not think "What am I doing with my life?"
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On June 20 2014 09:04 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 08:59 nafta wrote:On June 20 2014 08:55 Goumindong wrote:On June 20 2014 08:52 nafta wrote:On June 20 2014 03:28 Goumindong wrote:On June 20 2014 02:45 nafta wrote:On June 20 2014 02:41 Goumindong wrote:On June 20 2014 02:06 nafta wrote:On June 20 2014 02:00 arb wrote:On June 20 2014 00:58 Uldridge wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 20 2014 00:43 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 00:40 Uldridge wrote:anyone with natural lifesteal or shielding will do pretty well with new BT, and sion... Yeah I guess and it's cool since essence reaver simply makes Vi's mana problems in lane dissapear, although you do have to be careful untillyou have the item ofcourse, but when you have it, spam dat q&e mang. I haven't been able to try the new bt in a human game. They made it sound like it'd be shitty when you just got it but its shield scaling is pretty linear. To be honest I've never found the BT rework that bad, because now you don't have to build it up for 30 stacks (that's 5 waves man, or less if you kill some jungle camps with it, but it does take a long time, and chances are, if you're in a skirmish or a teamfight you will lose all the stacks). The now 10 more ad from the start makes it actually a stronger item when you buy it, even if it does cost like 300 more gold. A problem with BT is the shield decaying. Sure it will be there in lane but lategame I expect the shield will often not be up when a fight starts and your either building it up during the fight, which means you don't get hit and as such probably win the fight anyway, or you take damage right away and it will not build until the fight is already over. But the BT shield actually stays for quite a while, so it's actually not that bad as you make it sound. And IF the adc positions well he can get a hit off before he gets damaged and gets the shield around when the fight breaks out. I would still think about going BT first on Caitlyn for example even though IE might be a stronger opener now that it has gained 10 ad and lifesteal is back to dorans Dont get why people are saying the shield has no use, literally every game ive played tonight(diamond/plat mixtures) the adcs have got bt and the shield is always up pre fight lol. Not having to stack it but getting a 430 hp shield is fucking great. Thats lvl 18.Basically you are paying 3100 gold for 80 ad and ls and a ruby crystal in mid game instead of just getting ie or bork.That is just a waste.Seen a few people go bt and they do no damage every time. Yea, but as a 4th big item in complement with Scimitar it seems great. So you get IE, PD, LW, BT, Scimitar in that order. Which is huge for lategame AD itemization because they no longer need an explicitly defensive item. Its pretty bad early though Flat hp is the most underwhelming defensive stat by far.Only reason I would get it if bork doesnt really work in that situation. Uhh no. Flat HP is almost by far the most efficient defensive item in the game unless you have a lot of sustain. And the key is that the flat HP gives you a necessary buffer that allows you to forgo the traditional defensive 6th item in favor of a mixed offensive/defensive item which while more expensive on the whole is a lot more slot efficient. BV is 450 HP, 55 MR and is 83% gold efficient without its passive at 2750 gold. Scimitar is 45 MR, 80 AD, and is 99.5% gold efficient without its active at 3800 gold. Blade of the Ruined King is 3200 gold and is 83% gold efficient without its passive and active at 3200 gold. BT is 105% gold efficient without its passive at 3500 gold. Counting the HP but not the lifesteal its 110% efficient, counting both its 140% efficient. Sure BotRK and BV are good, but BT and Scimitar are just plain bigger items are a point when you care about slot efficiency more than gold efficiency Your logic is based too much on math and you completely ignore the stuff that you can't put a gold value on like banshee's passive or bork.Like sure bt is not a horrible item later in the game but it is better than bork only in some particular situations in which you don't need the self peel that bork offers and enemy has damage that there is no way to avoid like syndra ult or some shit. The trick is that the other amazingly slot efficient lategame AD item is Mercurial Scimitar And?How is having both a bad thing? How is Having Scimitar and BV a bad thing? What is your final build? IE, Shiv/PD, LW, Scimitar, BV? No lifesteal at all? BotRK, IE, LW, Scimitar, BV? Only one crit item? BT, LW, Shiv/PD, Scimitar, BV? No IE?
Honestly if enemy team has 2 ap solos(or say zyra/corki+ap mid) and my supp has a zeke yes I would.Don't really see where I said get bv/scimitar though.
I've thought about going ghostblade first but just seems kinda meh.Honestly if there was no crit and instead had something more useful I would start with it on most champs.For most champs it would work well but bork just does the same thing and transitions better in mid game.
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On June 20 2014 09:01 PrinceXizor wrote:If you are talking about a first item on a bot laner, why not just get ghostblade, AD arpen crit atk speed move speed cdr. good buildup with GP5 avarice and bruta. Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 09:01 cLutZ wrote:
No one buys merc, so there is obviously something wrong. In fact, IMO Blade is probably better for purely defensive purposes in today's metagame (unless a wild Zed appears). I think his point is that merc scimitar is getting a ton of free AD and now gives 80 AD, before it didn't give nearly as much so it was unused.
Ghostblade is a fine first item on a botlaner[though the avarice portion hurts it a bit and CDR on Brut] (as is BotRK). They're both very gold efficient and GB has the full mix of multiplicative values. But that doesn't make them particularly slot efficient. Especially if you've already got crit and attack speed (which devalues the on-hit relative to AD and the AS). The reason for this is just because they're cheaper (one of the reasons why you purchase them earlier)
I was trying to express earlier that the high end items are now very slot efficient, especially when combined together to provide all of the defensive stats you need (45 MR, ~450 HP, Cleanse) while also having a truckload of damage. And they are, indeed very slot efficient
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On June 20 2014 07:58 Alaric wrote:
Vi is plain shit when she's behind because like Xin Zhao or Pantheon she's all-in once she commits, no escapes, nothing.
??? The only melee champions that can go out after committing are Kha'zix and. .Vi... somewhat. R in, Q out.
I've heard quite a few people repeat this but it sounds like a fancy way to say "yeah, she's melee"
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On June 20 2014 09:11 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 09:01 PrinceXizor wrote:If you are talking about a first item on a bot laner, why not just get ghostblade, AD arpen crit atk speed move speed cdr. good buildup with GP5 avarice and bruta. On June 20 2014 09:01 cLutZ wrote:
No one buys merc, so there is obviously something wrong. In fact, IMO Blade is probably better for purely defensive purposes in today's metagame (unless a wild Zed appears). I think his point is that merc scimitar is getting a ton of free AD and now gives 80 AD, before it didn't give nearly as much so it was unused. Ghostblade is a fine first item on a botlaner[though the avarice portion hurts it a bit and CDR on Brut] (as is BotRK). They're both very gold efficient and GB has the full mix of multiplicative values. But that doesn't make them particularly slot efficient. Especially if you've already got crit and attack speed (which devalues the on-hit relative to AD and the AS). The reason for this is just because they're cheaper (one of the reasons why you purchase them earlier) I was trying to express earlier that the high end items are now very slot efficient, especially when combined together to provide all of the defensive stats you need (45 MR, ~450 HP, Cleanse) while also having a truckload of damage. And they are, indeed very slot efficient
slot efficiency is far from the most important thing to be focusing on.
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On June 20 2014 09:12 SagaZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 07:58 Alaric wrote:
Vi is plain shit when she's behind because like Xin Zhao or Pantheon she's all-in once she commits, no escapes, nothing. ??? The only melee champions that can go out after committing are Kha'zix and. .Vi... somewhat. R in, Q out. I've heard quite a few people repeat this but it sounds like a fancy way to say "yeah, she's melee"
If you're fighting as Vi and not Qing in a fight, you better be pretty far ahead and have somebody dumb enough to toe to toe you. Vi's escape is pretty poor as an nonslow cc completely shuts you down if you go for any real distance. Also, Talon.
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On June 20 2014 09:13 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 09:11 Goumindong wrote:On June 20 2014 09:01 PrinceXizor wrote:If you are talking about a first item on a bot laner, why not just get ghostblade, AD arpen crit atk speed move speed cdr. good buildup with GP5 avarice and bruta. On June 20 2014 09:01 cLutZ wrote:
No one buys merc, so there is obviously something wrong. In fact, IMO Blade is probably better for purely defensive purposes in today's metagame (unless a wild Zed appears). I think his point is that merc scimitar is getting a ton of free AD and now gives 80 AD, before it didn't give nearly as much so it was unused. Ghostblade is a fine first item on a botlaner[though the avarice portion hurts it a bit and CDR on Brut] (as is BotRK). They're both very gold efficient and GB has the full mix of multiplicative values. But that doesn't make them particularly slot efficient. Especially if you've already got crit and attack speed (which devalues the on-hit relative to AD and the AS). The reason for this is just because they're cheaper (one of the reasons why you purchase them earlier) I was trying to express earlier that the high end items are now very slot efficient, especially when combined together to provide all of the defensive stats you need (45 MR, ~450 HP, Cleanse) while also having a truckload of damage. And they are, indeed very slot efficient slot efficiency is far from the most important thing to be focusing on.
Sure but we were talking about slot efficiency.
Obesechicken replied to my post about item efficiency and the problems of support items. Where i suggested that an item that was build, gold, and slot efficient would be overly powerful. He stated that BotRK was all three(and i believe implied it was not OP) and i said that it was neither particularly build efficient (because of the Dagger+Dagger+900 gold finish cost which means either 3 slots and 900 gold, or 1800 in a single go), but also not particularly slot efficient because its slot efficiency compared to the most slot efficient AD items of BT,IE, and Scimitar was kind of low.
Edit: This was the post he was responding to
http://community.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/live-gameplay/uyWBkcfA-riot-support-itemization-is-terrible-and-fixable
And Yango had the very good comment that "immediate stat mixing" is a portion of build efficiency which I did not mention (one of the things that makes BotRK so good early is that its single item mix of stats is very efficient and so its completion has a large powerspike). Though i have not edited that in because i was mainly (in that post) ignoring the multiplicative aspect of stats due to supports/Support items not tending to have multiplicative stats.
edit: XES suggested that simply changing CDR from a flat % to a consistent one (I.E. every cumulative 1% CDR would reduce current CD's by 1%) which would make 10% CDR be about 9.6 now CDR, and 20% CDR would be about 18.3 now CDR, 40% would be about 33.2 now CDR and 100% CDR would 63.3% now CDR [if attainable]
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On June 20 2014 09:12 SagaZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 07:58 Alaric wrote:
Vi is plain shit when she's behind because like Xin Zhao or Pantheon she's all-in once she commits, no escapes, nothing. ??? The only melee champions that can go out after committing are Kha'zix and. .Vi... somewhat. R in, Q out. I've heard quite a few people repeat this but it sounds like a fancy way to say "yeah, she's melee"
Evelynn can disengage thanks to speedbuff, same for Skarner and Udyr, Elise thanks to E (though I guess you wouldnt count her as melee), Lee Sin thanks to W. Vi is exceptionally bad at walking away from fights and it's a valid and an important thing to keep in mind, not just when behind but when even or ahead as well.
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On June 20 2014 07:31 xes wrote:CDR is just a terrible stat to have to balance for. If you have 0% CDR, that next 1% is worthless. If you had (hypothetical) 99% CDR, the final 1% is godly
Why isn't CDR multiplicative? Then Riot can raise or remove the cap.
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Is it really a surprise by now?Shit like this has happened so many times already.
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this must be retribution for all the riot-unapproved shit gambit's pulled over the years like hat shyvana
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LCS is a marketing event. say it with me and it makes everything make more sense. meanwhile i didn't even know a team is allowed to have 4 subs.
EDIT: hmm aren't players paid based on games played? so this amounts to a financial penalty to the players that couldn't get their visas in time.
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On June 20 2014 10:35 PrinceXizor wrote:
LCS is a marketing event. say it with me and it makes everything make more sense. meanwhile i didn't even know a team is allowed to have 4 subs.
EDIT: hmm aren't players paid based on games played? so this amounts to a financial penalty to the players that couldn't get their visas in time.
I thought the team was given a lump sum at the start of the split. Or is that no longer the case?
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I was willing to give Riot the benefit of the doubt for the other Gambit situations but that's ridiculously harsh. Just let them reschedule. Gambits situation is so unique any ruling is unlikely to cause unwanted precedents.
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On June 20 2014 10:00 AsianEcksDragon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 07:31 xes wrote:CDR is just a terrible stat to have to balance for. If you have 0% CDR, that next 1% is worthless. If you had (hypothetical) 99% CDR, the final 1% is godly Why isn't CDR multiplicative? Then Riot can raise or remove the cap.
Probably for a couple of reasons
1) readability/ease of understanding. If you have 10% cdr its really easy to realize what this means right now. Same for 1 armor. But it's not so easy for CDR with the proposed change.
2) it would actually be hard to balance. You could still get oppressive cdr numbers, especially with certain champions who benefit more from CDs than raw power. Even with a consistent scaling the later reductions are more valuable because the effect of the skill stays the same. Imagine Morg with 65% cdr. Her root would last 3 seconds. Her root CD would be 3.15 seconds.
Getting the cdr value scaling on items to be both predictable and also not allow that kind of abuse while also actually being valuable in piecemeal doesn't seem to have an immediately obvious solution.
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On June 20 2014 10:35 PrinceXizor wrote:
LCS is a marketing event. say it with me and it makes everything make more sense. meanwhile i didn't even know a team is allowed to have 4 subs.
EDIT: hmm aren't players paid based on games played? so this amounts to a financial penalty to the players that couldn't get their visas in time.
LCS is a legitimately exciting form of entertainment. Devaluing in such a backhand fashion isn't fair. The Gambit ruling sucks but there's no reason to be so reductive.
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On June 20 2014 10:41 Amarok wrote:
I was willing to give Riot the benefit of the doubt for the other Gambit situations but that's ridiculously harsh. Just let them reschedule. Gambits situation is so unique any ruling is unlikely to cause unwanted precedents.
I think rescheduling Gambit's Games is the best choice. Use the extra 2 hours to have "Fan Games" or "Play with the Pro" events instead. Have Gambit play their games a few weeks later, Just Like MLB does with rain delays.
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On June 20 2014 10:41 Cixah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 10:35 PrinceXizor wrote:
LCS is a marketing event. say it with me and it makes everything make more sense. meanwhile i didn't even know a team is allowed to have 4 subs.
EDIT: hmm aren't players paid based on games played? so this amounts to a financial penalty to the players that couldn't get their visas in time. I thought the team was given a lump sum at the start of the split. Or is that no longer the case?
Yeah but the subs have to be paid. so the 4 players on gambit who got screwed by the scheduling aren't going to get paid as much just because of that. either that or the subs are playing without pay and without any end of season glory, which would give them no incentive to try.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 20 2014 10:43 Goumindong wrote:
1) readability/ease of understanding. If you have 10% cdr its really easy to realize what this means right now. Same for 1 armor. But it's not so easy for CDR with the proposed change.
I don't see this as being a good argument because of how Armor and MR already work.
Really if you had a "CDR Rating" stat that scaled CDR % the way Armor and MR scale your physical and magical % damage reduction, it would be fine.
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EPT
