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Alright, we're going to call it a day with all the Thorin drama, guys. I figured if it was about SI, onGamers, TSM, etc, it had some relevance to League but somehow you guys managed to devolve the discussion into an issue about race of all things.
Enough is enough. Let's move along now.
-NeoIllusions |
On June 13 2014 02:20 nafta wrote:
Well yeah when it is wrong why not ignore it?Like when I play vs people who I know are worse than me I just go into trades I know I should lose but win them anyway because they are scared.This works vs 99% of players of every elo.
Do you honestly believe a d1 player can't just go full retard and smash average diamond players?Like sure he won't start 10/0 probably but you can still carry even with only 1/2 kills in lane.Saying full retard aggression doesn't work is just wrong.
That's exactly what I mean. He gets that 1 kill from a good support pick, or because he's a small item up, and uses that to snowball his advantage. Very rarely do you see that player just get a kill off of Dorans blade vs dorans blade without their support landing a good binding or whatever. I think we just have different definitions of full retard aggressive, versus balanced aggression?
Edit: Just saw your Draven comment. With Draven I can agree. But that's because his Q basically gives them a free longsword at level 1. They're good enough to take an advantage off of just a longsword. Actually I think we're saying the same thing. Just that we have different definitions. In Silver you're rewarded with a kill, in Plat you're rewarded with a CS lead usually.
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On June 13 2014 02:24 RagequitBM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2014 02:20 nafta wrote:
Well yeah when it is wrong why not ignore it?Like when I play vs people who I know are worse than me I just go into trades I know I should lose but win them anyway because they are scared.This works vs 99% of players of every elo.
Do you honestly believe a d1 player can't just go full retard and smash average diamond players?Like sure he won't start 10/0 probably but you can still carry even with only 1/2 kills in lane.Saying full retard aggression doesn't work is just wrong. That's exactly what I mean. He gets that 1 kill from a good support pick, or because he's a small item up, and uses that to snowball his advantage. Very rarely do you see that player just get a kill off of Dorans blade vs dorans blade without their support landing a good binding or whatever. I think we just have different definitions of full retard aggressive, versus balanced aggression? Edit: Just saw your Draven comment. With Draven I can agree. But that's because his Q basically gives them a free longsword at level 1. They're good enough to take an advantage off of just a longsword. Actually I think we're saying the same thing. Just that we have different definitions. In Silver you're rewarded with a kill, in Plat you're rewarded with a CS lead usually.
Then when playing retard aggressive gives you a cs lead why doesn't it work?
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On June 13 2014 02:31 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2014 02:24 RagequitBM wrote:On June 13 2014 02:20 nafta wrote:
Well yeah when it is wrong why not ignore it?Like when I play vs people who I know are worse than me I just go into trades I know I should lose but win them anyway because they are scared.This works vs 99% of players of every elo.
Do you honestly believe a d1 player can't just go full retard and smash average diamond players?Like sure he won't start 10/0 probably but you can still carry even with only 1/2 kills in lane.Saying full retard aggression doesn't work is just wrong. That's exactly what I mean. He gets that 1 kill from a good support pick, or because he's a small item up, and uses that to snowball his advantage. Very rarely do you see that player just get a kill off of Dorans blade vs dorans blade without their support landing a good binding or whatever. I think we just have different definitions of full retard aggressive, versus balanced aggression? Edit: Just saw your Draven comment. With Draven I can agree. But that's because his Q basically gives them a free longsword at level 1. They're good enough to take an advantage off of just a longsword. Actually I think we're saying the same thing. Just that we have different definitions. In Silver you're rewarded with a kill, in Plat you're rewarded with a CS lead usually. Then when playing retard aggressive gives you a cs lead why doesn't it work?
When I put the retard before aggression, I literally mean full retard dive minions, 100% dead if they turn. Plat players will actually give you the dirty turn. I think Draven is the only champion where that works. Anyway, all this talking made me think about it more, and I realize that it really comes down to just taking advantage of mistakes, and different elos having different mistakes to take advantage of!
Thanks for helping me come to this conclusion.
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On June 12 2014 09:51 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2014 09:47 Dark_Chill wrote:
That's kind of an unfair callout on Braum. His damage is just way higher than anyone expected on Q and passive. His laning was supposed to be passive and reactionary, but Riot initially made him so strong that he started and won every fight unless there were huge misplays. His lategame is still amazing, which I think most people predicted. I think a final nerf on his passive (- 10-20 base dmg) should put him in a spot where he's not constantly banned. Not really an excuse. 1 look at his kit screamed Lee-Syndrome.
If the "Lee-Syndrome" is wrong, then I don't want to be right!
The exceptional design on champions like lee, jarvan, orianna, thresh, nidalee, braum and probably others (you get the idea) is what sets lol apart from dota (for me at least). Its the interesting mechanics, flexibility and variety of things or potential those champs have which make other champion designs look bad and not the other way around!
there are a couple things that make those designs exceptionally awesome for lol:
1. no or almost no gimmicks
every of their skills is meaningful and impactful
2. the abilities are orthogonal, make the champions flexible and complete
which means that you can escape, engage, disable, protect and destroy, you are not cornered into some boring role. this is why there's a higher chance for exciting plays in any given situation.
3. they have unique ways of doing things which all have their counterplayability and strengths.
most of the lee-syndrome champs are heavily skillshot based which is by definition counterplayable. the signature skills of these champions are strong but situational. they have huge potential but they can be prevented or dampered by good positioning.
4. they have active steroids.
you dont just get crit/armor/ or w/e on them for free but you have to act in a certain way to profit from their steroids. this is not as important as the other points but i find it worthy to mention, because passive abilities and steroids are not only boring but make certain situations perceived as unfairly easy.
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On June 13 2014 02:37 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2014 09:51 Gahlo wrote:On June 12 2014 09:47 Dark_Chill wrote:
That's kind of an unfair callout on Braum. His damage is just way higher than anyone expected on Q and passive. His laning was supposed to be passive and reactionary, but Riot initially made him so strong that he started and won every fight unless there were huge misplays. His lategame is still amazing, which I think most people predicted. I think a final nerf on his passive (- 10-20 base dmg) should put him in a spot where he's not constantly banned. Not really an excuse. 1 look at his kit screamed Lee-Syndrome. If the "Lee-Syndrome" is wrong, then I don't want to be right!
Lee Syndrome is when something have so much shit in the kit that it will never be bad unless it is torn down with the expressed intention of ruining it.
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On June 13 2014 02:40 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2014 02:37 clickrush wrote:On June 12 2014 09:51 Gahlo wrote:On June 12 2014 09:47 Dark_Chill wrote:
That's kind of an unfair callout on Braum. His damage is just way higher than anyone expected on Q and passive. His laning was supposed to be passive and reactionary, but Riot initially made him so strong that he started and won every fight unless there were huge misplays. His lategame is still amazing, which I think most people predicted. I think a final nerf on his passive (- 10-20 base dmg) should put him in a spot where he's not constantly banned. Not really an excuse. 1 look at his kit screamed Lee-Syndrome. If the "Lee-Syndrome" is wrong, then I don't want to be right! Lee Syndrome is when something have so much shit in the kit that it will never be bad unless it is torn down with the expressed intention of ruining it.
Lee Syndrome is when you hit a Q you have to follow up with the second Q right?
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On June 13 2014 02:40 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2014 02:37 clickrush wrote:On June 12 2014 09:51 Gahlo wrote:On June 12 2014 09:47 Dark_Chill wrote:
That's kind of an unfair callout on Braum. His damage is just way higher than anyone expected on Q and passive. His laning was supposed to be passive and reactionary, but Riot initially made him so strong that he started and won every fight unless there were huge misplays. His lategame is still amazing, which I think most people predicted. I think a final nerf on his passive (- 10-20 base dmg) should put him in a spot where he's not constantly banned. Not really an excuse. 1 look at his kit screamed Lee-Syndrome. If the "Lee-Syndrome" is wrong, then I don't want to be right! Lee Syndrome is when something have so much shit in the kit that it will never be bad unless it is torn down with the expressed intention of ruining it.
that is in my opinion good design.
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On June 12 2014 11:15 Kinie wrote:
Is there any way to educate/convince people in solo Q to buy wards (or sightstone on support)?
Like I just got done with a really frustrating game and the main reason we lost was due to lack of vision, even though I was doing all I could to ward and sweep. The team itself was ok, but only me and the ADC were warding. And even after I called the support out on no sightstone he continued to not get it (or even use his trinket ward) and we just slowly lost vision, then control of dragon/baron, then the game due to them being like 8k gold ahead of us at 30 minute mark.
I try to be logical about it to them (vision wins games, objectives > kills, picks lead to objectives, etc.), and even ask them to throw it down somewhere even if it isn't in an ideal location. But no one else listened.
other players dont owe you anything, stop trying to change the world when you can just change yourself.
Losing because of lack of wards is most likely a perception issue. First you have the fact that if you had snowballed a lead thanks to good play you wouldn't need wards, and secondly you probably lost because of lack of awareness and bad positioning more than lack of wards. Most of the time people just walk places they shouldn't be and the answer is to not take stupid risks and not ward every inch of the map.
i mean i often buy way too little wards because i rarely see the need for them, other players buy tons of wards but you can just as easily achieve the same effect by pinging people back when they walk stupid areas and just ward key locations.
Focusing on timing dragons and grouping members for dragon is way more important for securing dragon, and for baron usually you guys are losing by the time they try to go for it, and even trying to ward alone might get yo caught, sticking as 5 and just warding just ahead of you before you facecheck the key brush before baron is more important.
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On June 13 2014 02:46 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2014 02:40 Gahlo wrote:On June 13 2014 02:37 clickrush wrote:On June 12 2014 09:51 Gahlo wrote:On June 12 2014 09:47 Dark_Chill wrote:
That's kind of an unfair callout on Braum. His damage is just way higher than anyone expected on Q and passive. His laning was supposed to be passive and reactionary, but Riot initially made him so strong that he started and won every fight unless there were huge misplays. His lategame is still amazing, which I think most people predicted. I think a final nerf on his passive (- 10-20 base dmg) should put him in a spot where he's not constantly banned. Not really an excuse. 1 look at his kit screamed Lee-Syndrome. If the "Lee-Syndrome" is wrong, then I don't want to be right! Lee Syndrome is when something have so much shit in the kit that it will never be bad unless it is torn down with the expressed intention of ruining it. that is in my opinion good design.
Well, the fact he's manaless helps too. Look at Lulu.
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On June 12 2014 22:41 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2014 22:26 Dandel Ion wrote:
I think ARAM should have all champs unlocked, no rerolls at all, and no trading characters.
But all champs is not going to happen because riot will not add a permanent game mode that bypasses the need to spend tons of money / time to unlock champs. They like money too much for that. I don't mind rerolls and trading. At the end of the day ARAM is still supposed to be fun and some champs just aren't fun. It's not like rerolls are unlimited or anything. The benefit of unlocking all champs would be that people might find champions they like and then buy them for Summoners Rift.
If you play enough ARAM and win enough, you run into a pretty high percentage of only ARAM accounts. Maybe half? I suspect at lower MMR the numbers are quite a bit lower, because most of the people who have them are people who care a bit too much. Personally I think half the challenge is being able to win with whatever you're given- sure sometimes its rough, but that's why I enjoy the mode.
That being said, there are a few champions that Riot should probably just ban from the mode. Sona is just stupid, unless you have a healer yourself, or some uber hard engage at level 6 team that can last until then, your team is probably just going to crumble. Ziggs is similar- although widening out the bridge or making it so his mines don't last 10 seconds for just this map (which is an eternity) would help too.
It's pretty rare you get a comp that's complete trash in ARAM. As long as you have one ADC, some sort of range poke, you'll probably do okay. Although there has been nights where I've literally had to face Ziggs, Sona, and Lux all on the same team like 5 games in a row without an ADC.
ARAM also makes me mad because a lot of people just die at the wrong time when they have control of it or don't know their role in these "difficult to defeat the enemy given what we were given, but on the fringe of possible" team comps. And think they're amazing when they clearly don't understand the mode. Or think they're hot stuff when they hit 1/3rd of their Jayce q's, no that is not enough against a team with Sona, good god.
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On June 13 2014 02:46 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2014 02:40 Gahlo wrote:On June 13 2014 02:37 clickrush wrote:On June 12 2014 09:51 Gahlo wrote:On June 12 2014 09:47 Dark_Chill wrote:
That's kind of an unfair callout on Braum. His damage is just way higher than anyone expected on Q and passive. His laning was supposed to be passive and reactionary, but Riot initially made him so strong that he started and won every fight unless there were huge misplays. His lategame is still amazing, which I think most people predicted. I think a final nerf on his passive (- 10-20 base dmg) should put him in a spot where he's not constantly banned. Not really an excuse. 1 look at his kit screamed Lee-Syndrome. If the "Lee-Syndrome" is wrong, then I don't want to be right! Lee Syndrome is when something have so much shit in the kit that it will never be bad unless it is torn down with the expressed intention of ruining it. that is in my opinion good design.
That is not in fact good design. See thresh. You could take 20% damage off all his skills and there's a fair chance he'd still be picked.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 13 2014 03:06 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2014 02:46 clickrush wrote:On June 13 2014 02:40 Gahlo wrote:On June 13 2014 02:37 clickrush wrote:On June 12 2014 09:51 Gahlo wrote:On June 12 2014 09:47 Dark_Chill wrote:
That's kind of an unfair callout on Braum. His damage is just way higher than anyone expected on Q and passive. His laning was supposed to be passive and reactionary, but Riot initially made him so strong that he started and won every fight unless there were huge misplays. His lategame is still amazing, which I think most people predicted. I think a final nerf on his passive (- 10-20 base dmg) should put him in a spot where he's not constantly banned. Not really an excuse. 1 look at his kit screamed Lee-Syndrome. If the "Lee-Syndrome" is wrong, then I don't want to be right! Lee Syndrome is when something have so much shit in the kit that it will never be bad unless it is torn down with the expressed intention of ruining it. that is in my opinion good design. That is not in fact good design. See thresh. You could take 20% damage off all his skills and there's a fair chance he'd still be picked.
It depends on your perspective with regard to balance.
Fundamentally, it means a champ like this is resilient to being over-nerfed or over-buffed, so if you have a game state where the baseline utility for all these champions is similar it's very hard to force the game into one that's really imbalanced.
The problem is that if the baseline for most champs is way below this, it means that it's very hard to push these particular champs into a good place.
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On June 13 2014 03:06 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2014 02:46 clickrush wrote:On June 13 2014 02:40 Gahlo wrote:On June 13 2014 02:37 clickrush wrote:On June 12 2014 09:51 Gahlo wrote:On June 12 2014 09:47 Dark_Chill wrote:
That's kind of an unfair callout on Braum. His damage is just way higher than anyone expected on Q and passive. His laning was supposed to be passive and reactionary, but Riot initially made him so strong that he started and won every fight unless there were huge misplays. His lategame is still amazing, which I think most people predicted. I think a final nerf on his passive (- 10-20 base dmg) should put him in a spot where he's not constantly banned. Not really an excuse. 1 look at his kit screamed Lee-Syndrome. If the "Lee-Syndrome" is wrong, then I don't want to be right! Lee Syndrome is when something have so much shit in the kit that it will never be bad unless it is torn down with the expressed intention of ruining it. that is in my opinion good design. That is not in fact good design. See thresh. You could take 20% damage off all his skills and there's a fair chance he'd still be picked.
that just mean his kit strength comes from utility not numbers... Having a high utility kit for a champion is not bad design.
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On June 13 2014 03:06 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2014 02:46 clickrush wrote:On June 13 2014 02:40 Gahlo wrote:On June 13 2014 02:37 clickrush wrote:On June 12 2014 09:51 Gahlo wrote:On June 12 2014 09:47 Dark_Chill wrote:
That's kind of an unfair callout on Braum. His damage is just way higher than anyone expected on Q and passive. His laning was supposed to be passive and reactionary, but Riot initially made him so strong that he started and won every fight unless there were huge misplays. His lategame is still amazing, which I think most people predicted. I think a final nerf on his passive (- 10-20 base dmg) should put him in a spot where he's not constantly banned. Not really an excuse. 1 look at his kit screamed Lee-Syndrome. If the "Lee-Syndrome" is wrong, then I don't want to be right! Lee Syndrome is when something have so much shit in the kit that it will never be bad unless it is torn down with the expressed intention of ruining it. that is in my opinion good design. That is not in fact good design. See thresh. You could take 20% damage off all his skills and there's a fair chance he'd still be picked.
Why is that poor design? Your example shows that someone designed to bring a lot of utility indeed does so, thus they are(would be) resilient to damage nerfs. Removing the 'engage' option on hook or directional control of flay would be far more damaging nerfs to Thresh because that's what his kit is designed around, not doing the deeps. That's why the 'effective' nerfs to Lee(ones that have clearly changed his playstyle/his roles in teams) were things like aspd/movespeed reduction nerfs, nerfs to his shield functionality, his passive, and not just Q E and R damages.
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On June 13 2014 03:09 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2014 03:06 Amui wrote:On June 13 2014 02:46 clickrush wrote:On June 13 2014 02:40 Gahlo wrote:On June 13 2014 02:37 clickrush wrote:On June 12 2014 09:51 Gahlo wrote:On June 12 2014 09:47 Dark_Chill wrote:
That's kind of an unfair callout on Braum. His damage is just way higher than anyone expected on Q and passive. His laning was supposed to be passive and reactionary, but Riot initially made him so strong that he started and won every fight unless there were huge misplays. His lategame is still amazing, which I think most people predicted. I think a final nerf on his passive (- 10-20 base dmg) should put him in a spot where he's not constantly banned. Not really an excuse. 1 look at his kit screamed Lee-Syndrome. If the "Lee-Syndrome" is wrong, then I don't want to be right! Lee Syndrome is when something have so much shit in the kit that it will never be bad unless it is torn down with the expressed intention of ruining it. that is in my opinion good design. That is not in fact good design. See thresh. You could take 20% damage off all his skills and there's a fair chance he'd still be picked. It depends on your perspective with regard to balance. Fundamentally, it means a champ like this is resilient to being over-nerfed or over-buffed, so if you have a game state where the baseline utility for all these champions is similar it's very hard to force the game into one that's really imbalanced. The problem is that if the baseline for most champs is way below this, it means that it's very hard to push these particular champs into a good place.
This so much.
So sure, Lee and Thresh are very good designs in a vacuum, but in the picture that is LoL, they are misfits.
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This parody is dedicated to junglers listening to bad calls by their laners because of peer pressure everywhere.
(source song; parody follows it verse by verse:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My2FRPA3Gf8)
We ganked, we chained, our skills in lane
We jumped in, never asking why
We killed, we fell under your spell.
"In LoL, no one can deny"
Don't you ever say I just walked away
I was warding for you
I believed your lie, flashing for my life
I should report you
I CAME IN WITH THE RAMMUS BALL
I NEVER CAMPED SO HARD IN LoL
ALL I WANTED WAS TO MAKE THE CALLS
ALL YOU EVER DID WAS, BAY-AY-AY-IT ME
YEAH YOU, YOU #RE-HE-HE-KT ME
I put you ahead against this guy
And now, you're not coming down
The dragon fight slowly turned, you just let me burn
And now, our ashe is stuck in bronze
Don't you ever say I just walked away
I was warding for you
I believed your lie, flashing for my life
I should report you
I CAME IN WITH THE RAMMUS BALL
I NEVER CAMPED SO HARD IN LoL
ALL I WANTED WAS TO MAKE THE CALLS
ALL YOU EVER DID WAS, BAY-AY-AY-IT ME
YEAH YOU, YOU #RE-HE-HE-KT ME
I CAME IN WITH THE RAMMUS BALL
YEAH, AND I JUST SAW THEIR VI USE ULT
LEFT ME CRASHING AND FAIL FLASHED THE WALL
ALL YOU EVER DID WAS, BAITTT ME
YEAH YOU, YOU #REKT ME
I never meant to start a flamewar
I just wanted you to let me win
And instead of using force
I guess I should've let you pick Quinn
I never meant to start a flame war
I just wanted you to let me win
I guess I should've let you pick Quinn
Don't you ever say, I just walked away
I was warding for you.
I CAME IN WITH THE RAMMUS BALL
I NEVER CAMPED SO HARD IN LoL
ALL I WANTED WAS TO MAKE THE CALLS
ALL YOU EVER DID WAS, BAY-AY-AY-IT ME
YEAH YOU, YOU #RE-HE-HE-KT ME
I CAME IN WITH THE RAMMUS BALL
YEAH, AND I JUST SAW THEIR VI USE ULT
LEFT ME CRASHING AND FAIL FLASHED THE WALL
ALL YOU EVER DID WAS, BAITTT ME
YEAH YOU, YOU #REKT ME
just need smix to sing it and ready for the pop charts
RITE
RITE??
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On June 13 2014 02:37 clickrush wrote:
If the "Lee-Syndrome" is wrong, then I don't want to be right!
The exceptional design on champions like lee, jarvan, orianna, thresh, nidalee, braum and probably others (you get the idea) is what sets lol apart from dota (for me at least). Its the interesting mechanics, flexibility and variety of things or potential those champs have which make other champion designs look bad and not the other way around!
there are a couple things that make those designs exceptionally awesome for lol:
1. no or almost no gimmicks
every of their skills is meaningful and impactful
2. the abilities are orthogonal, make the champions flexible and complete
which means that you can escape, engage, disable, protect and destroy, you are not cornered into some boring role. this is why there's a higher chance for exciting plays in any given situation.
3. they have unique ways of doing things which all have their counterplayability and strengths.
most of the lee-syndrome champs are heavily skillshot based which is by definition counterplayable. the signature skills of these champions are strong but situational. they have huge potential but they can be prevented or dampered by good positioning.
4. they have active steroids.
you dont just get crit/armor/ or w/e on them for free but you have to act in a certain way to profit from their steroids. this is not as important as the other points but i find it worthy to mention, because passive abilities and steroids are not only boring but make certain situations perceived as unfairly easy.
It's interesting that you use this as an example of why you prefer LoL -- I also prefer LoL, but Dota is all about interesting abilities. In LoL you buy items to enhance your abilities. In Dota you buy items to get new abilities.
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When i see braum and thresh and lissandra i think, riot knows how to make champions, compared to the majority of their releases, and then i see the community reaction and the response from riot and i get sad. 
EDIT: an opposite would be designs on lee, zac, Zed.
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Teutonica is a GOD among men.
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United States47024 Posts
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EPT
