Alright, we're going to call it a day with all the Thorin drama, guys. I figured if it was about SI, onGamers, TSM, etc, it had some relevance to League but somehow you guys managed to devolve the discussion into an issue about race of all things.
On June 11 2014 12:51 Sufficiency wrote: I am sorry. I meant that was no apology at all.
He explicitly apologises at the end of the entire message.
Uh no. He did not actually apologize.
Look. Originally, he may have made a remark that called regi a monkey. It was not word by word, but it was implied.
His apology is saying YES I DID CALL YOU A MONKEY AND IT WAS WRONG BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER YOUR APPEARANCE.
See what I am getting at? There is no way regi will accept it, so TSM won't work with ongamers in the foreseeable future.
Um... Exactly. He stated why he believed his remarks were inappropriate and explicitly apologises for them at the end. I'm not sure what else you expect from an apology.
On June 11 2014 12:28 Sufficiency wrote: Behold: the most insincere apology ever:
Thorin's statement:
I apologise for my off-colour remark regarding Reginald, which carried a perceivable implication that he resembled an animal, in any sense. The remark was intended as a joke, but on reflection, I would agree that it is unprofessional and unnecessary to make fun of an individual on the basis of something they have no control over, such as their appearance. In this respect, I can see that there have been occasions on which I have crossed that line on episodes of Summoning Insight, veering from discussion of individuals's words and actions into making light of factors over which they have no control and which should be off the table.
Humour aside, I don't think such jokes are the right approach for the show. Individuals should only be criticised for their actions and words, things over which they have direct control. After meditating upon this topic, I can see there is a middle ground that can be found between giving honest opinions about the game and its players without including such personal insults, which may be perceived as attacks.
It has never been the intention of the show to be perceived as a vehicle to insult others. The philosophy outlining the show is of open and honest discussion. Humour and a light-hearted approach serve as lubrication to keep the conversation flowing smoothly and transition between topics, simultaneously warming up the hosts and guests. For future episodes I will make a concerted effort to ensure my remarks remain within the context of the game.
This show has become something far beyond anything I had anticipated upon launching the idea, as the increased running times and regular line-up of guests will highlight. Running a loosely formated talk show for three hours is no easy task, so there are going to be times when one makes statements or decisions that they might think better of later. It's important to understand that a hot medium like a live talk show will yield sound bytes that will be judged very differently in the cold medium of transcribed text.
The latter carries an inherent bias, within the reader, that the person who made such statements put specific intention and thought into how he articulated himself, as one would if they were composing a text statement itself. If I thought it was impossible to overcome such issues with perception, then I'd cancel the show outright. As it is, I think it's possible to, with effort and focus, retain the identity of the show while also making all statements within the bounds of reasonable discussion and defensible on their own merits.
Ignoring all other components of the incident which preluded my remarks, I openly admit that my comments were not representative of the philosophy guiding and informing the show. When I reflect back on what was said, it's not the content, theme or approach that I'd like to represent the show. I apologise for my remarks regarding Reginald and acknowledge that they are not defensible as appropriate behaviour.
I'm not sure how the segment you bolded shows a lack of sincerity...
Or any part of it at all. I watched the whole thing tonight, and he made a bizarre Planet of the Apes reference. Unless you are obsessed with racism, and looking for racism, you shouldn't see racism. AKA, only racists saw the comment as racist.
Or any part of it at all. I watched the whole thing tonight, and he made a bizarre Planet of the Apes reference. Unless you are obsessed with racism, and looking for racism, you shouldn't see racism. AKA, only racists saw the comment as racist.
You're Ugly.
oh sorry i shouldn't say that, it's not your fault you're ugly, you have no control over that.
that's how the apology comes off. you don't add the extra lines about control if you want an apology to have no backlash. i don't think it was intentional, but it comes off very dickish.
On June 11 2014 12:51 Sufficiency wrote: I am sorry. I meant that was no apology at all.
Besides saying "I apologize" right at the start... then explaining why the things he said were not approirate... then detailing how he means to make right on the situation and resolve to not have such statements occur in the future... then for good measure he apologizies again right at the end
This isn't anything like a "non apology"[I.E. the "I am sorry you are offended by my actions" statement]. It is actually a pretty good apology. He commits to being better, he explains that he knows he was wrong, and he makes no excuses for the action.
The only thing he doesn't do is grovel but really he should not be doing that in a public apology.
On June 11 2014 12:28 Sufficiency wrote: Behold: the most insincere apology ever:
Thorin's statement:
I apologise for my off-colour remark regarding Reginald, which carried a perceivable implication that he resembled an animal, in any sense. The remark was intended as a joke, but on reflection, I would agree that it is unprofessional and unnecessary to make fun of an individual on the basis of something they have no control over, such as their appearance. In this respect, I can see that there have been occasions on which I have crossed that line on episodes of Summoning Insight, veering from discussion of individuals's words and actions into making light of factors over which they have no control and which should be off the table.
Humour aside, I don't think such jokes are the right approach for the show. Individuals should only be criticised for their actions and words, things over which they have direct control. After meditating upon this topic, I can see there is a middle ground that can be found between giving honest opinions about the game and its players without including such personal insults, which may be perceived as attacks.
It has never been the intention of the show to be perceived as a vehicle to insult others. The philosophy outlining the show is of open and honest discussion. Humour and a light-hearted approach serve as lubrication to keep the conversation flowing smoothly and transition between topics, simultaneously warming up the hosts and guests. For future episodes I will make a concerted effort to ensure my remarks remain within the context of the game.
This show has become something far beyond anything I had anticipated upon launching the idea, as the increased running times and regular line-up of guests will highlight. Running a loosely formated talk show for three hours is no easy task, so there are going to be times when one makes statements or decisions that they might think better of later. It's important to understand that a hot medium like a live talk show will yield sound bytes that will be judged very differently in the cold medium of transcribed text.
The latter carries an inherent bias, within the reader, that the person who made such statements put specific intention and thought into how he articulated himself, as one would if they were composing a text statement itself. If I thought it was impossible to overcome such issues with perception, then I'd cancel the show outright. As it is, I think it's possible to, with effort and focus, retain the identity of the show while also making all statements within the bounds of reasonable discussion and defensible on their own merits.
Ignoring all other components of the incident which preluded my remarks, I openly admit that my comments were not representative of the philosophy guiding and informing the show. When I reflect back on what was said, it's not the content, theme or approach that I'd like to represent the show. I apologise for my remarks regarding Reginald and acknowledge that they are not defensible as appropriate behaviour.
I'm not sure how the segment you bolded shows a lack of sincerity...
Or any part of it at all. I watched the whole thing tonight, and he made a bizarre Planet of the Apes reference. Unless you are obsessed with racism, and looking for racism, you shouldn't see racism. AKA, only racists saw the comment as racist.
What was his exact quote? (I didn't watch SI)
All I heard was that he called regi an ape, and you have to be quite the racist yourself (or have lived a very sheltered life) to think there's nothing wrong with calling someone (particularly a non-white person) an ape.
It has more to do than with just appearance. Calling someone an ape implies they aren't as "evolutionarily advanced" as other people. It was historically a slur against people of color and it's still heard (in soccer arenas) today.
Or any part of it at all. I watched the whole thing tonight, and he made a bizarre Planet of the Apes reference. Unless you are obsessed with racism, and looking for racism, you shouldn't see racism. AKA, only racists saw the comment as racist.
You're Ugly.
oh sorry i shouldn't say that, it's not your fault you're ugly, you have no control over that.
that's how the apology comes off. you don't add the extra lines about control if you want an apology to have no backlash. i don't think it was intentional, but it comes off very dickish.
No, the people attacking him are. When I watched the show I saw the "offensive" part, and thought to myself, people are going to feign outrage about this. I never thought, that thoron was racist, so I was rational, and never offended. Like I said, you need to be looking for third tier "code words" to think he is, which the is, of course, a goal for some people: to be offended.
No, the people attacking him are. When I watched the show I saw the "offensive" part, and thought to myself, people are going to feign outrage about this. I never thought, that thoron was racist, so I was rational, and never offended. Like I said, you need to be looking for third tier "code words" to think he is, which the is, of course, a goal for some people: to be offended.
i don't give a crap about the "racism" i think he was making a joke about attractiveness rather than race. and then in his apology he repeated the insult instead of apologizing. its not an apology no matter how many times you say your sorry if you repeat the insult. i don't think he's a racist, i think he's a dumb kid who thinks what he said was really funny and doesn't think he should apologize, but he "has to", like a little kid caught by his parents.
Im sorry i called you fat, its not your fault you can't stop eating.
im sorry i called you ugly, your parents just made you that way
im sorry for what i said about you, it was wrong to make fun of you for something you can't control, like your appearance
im sorry for making fun of your lisp, its not your fault you sound funny.
one is more wordy, but all take it too far to be a true apology. all of them imply there is something worth making fun of about the person.
Or any part of it at all. I watched the whole thing tonight, and he made a bizarre Planet of the Apes reference. Unless you are obsessed with racism, and looking for racism, you shouldn't see racism. AKA, only racists saw the comment as racist.
You're Ugly.
oh sorry i shouldn't say that, it's not your fault you're ugly, you have no control over that.
that's how the apology comes off. you don't add the extra lines about control if you want an apology to have no backlash. i don't think it was intentional, but it comes off very dickish.
No, the people attacking him are. When I watched the show I saw the "offensive" part, and thought to myself, people are going to feign outrage about this. I never thought, that thoron was racist, so I was rational, and never offended. Like I said, you need to be looking for third tier "code words" to think he is, which the is, of course, a goal for some people: to be offended.
i dont think people call Asians monkeys, so i think he was making a more appearance based insult(which is partially true to be fair, not to offend). But calling him racist is pretty dumb imo.
Or any part of it at all. I watched the whole thing tonight, and he made a bizarre Planet of the Apes reference. Unless you are obsessed with racism, and looking for racism, you shouldn't see racism. AKA, only racists saw the comment as racist.
You're Ugly.
oh sorry i shouldn't say that, it's not your fault you're ugly, you have no control over that.
that's how the apology comes off. you don't add the extra lines about control if you want an apology to have no backlash. i don't think it was intentional, but it comes off very dickish.
No, the people attacking him are. When I watched the show I saw the "offensive" part, and thought to myself, people are going to feign outrage about this. I never thought, that thoron was racist, so I was rational, and never offended. Like I said, you need to be looking for third tier "code words" to think he is, which the is, of course, a goal for some people: to be offended.
i dont think people call Asians monkeys, so i think he was making a more appearance based insult(which is partially true to be fair, not to offend). But calling him racist is pretty dumb imo.
To clarify and not to (explicitly) disagree with you otherwise: "monkey" as a racialized insult has quite a long history of varying uses. It tends to imply that the bearer of the label is (relatively to the speaker) less-evolved in some sense, which has historically included everyone that isn't white, and occasionally some white ethnic groups as well. This includes people of asian descent.
To give an example, within predominantly asian multi-cultural areas, the insult is typically applied to people of south-east asian descent, primarily Filipino people. Specifically, the insult in this context refers to both the perceived appearance of the labelled people in question, as well as the stereotype that they climb up trees and eat fruit (primarily mangoes) as children.
I'm not saying Thorin meant to invoke this specific meaning, or anything even remotely similar. Just clarifying that "monkey / ape / etc" as a racialized insult has often been applied to asian ethnic groups in the past.
Or any part of it at all. I watched the whole thing tonight, and he made a bizarre Planet of the Apes reference. Unless you are obsessed with racism, and looking for racism, you shouldn't see racism. AKA, only racists saw the comment as racist.
You're Ugly.
oh sorry i shouldn't say that, it's not your fault you're ugly, you have no control over that.
that's how the apology comes off. you don't add the extra lines about control if you want an apology to have no backlash. i don't think it was intentional, but it comes off very dickish.
No, the people attacking him are. When I watched the show I saw the "offensive" part, and thought to myself, people are going to feign outrage about this. I never thought, that thoron was racist, so I was rational, and never offended. Like I said, you need to be looking for third tier "code words" to think he is, which the is, of course, a goal for some people: to be offended.
i dont think people call Asians monkeys, so i think he was making a more appearance based insult(which is partially true to be fair, not to offend). But calling him racist is pretty dumb imo.
They don't, in America/Europe its an insult traditionally reserved for those of African descent. The internet loves to be offended though, so we get this. And I am traditionally a tsm defender, because they are traditionally not with attacking.
Don't know if it was racist or not but calling afroamerican a monkey is at least inappriopriate and was always considered as an insult with racist background. At least here in Europe.
Or any part of it at all. I watched the whole thing tonight, and he made a bizarre Planet of the Apes reference. Unless you are obsessed with racism, and looking for racism, you shouldn't see racism. AKA, only racists saw the comment as racist.
You're Ugly.
oh sorry i shouldn't say that, it's not your fault you're ugly, you have no control over that.
that's how the apology comes off. you don't add the extra lines about control if you want an apology to have no backlash. i don't think it was intentional, but it comes off very dickish.
No, the people attacking him are. When I watched the show I saw the "offensive" part, and thought to myself, people are going to feign outrage about this. I never thought, that thoron was racist, so I was rational, and never offended. Like I said, you need to be looking for third tier "code words" to think he is, which the is, of course, a goal for some people: to be offended.
i dont think people call Asians monkeys, so i think he was making a more appearance based insult(which is partially true to be fair, not to offend). But calling him racist is pretty dumb imo.
To clarify and not to (explicitly) disagree with you otherwise: "monkey" as a racialized insult has quite a long history of varying uses. It tends to imply that the bearer of the label is (relatively to the speaker) less-evolved in some sense, which has historically included everyone that isn't white, and occasionally some white ethnic groups as well. This includes people of asian descent.
To give an example, within predominantly asian multi-cultural areas, the insult is typically applied to people of south-east asian descent, primarily Filipino people. Specifically, the insult in this context refers to both the perceived appearance of the labelled people in question, as well as the stereotype that they climb up trees and eat fruit (primarily mangoes) as children.
I'm not saying Thorin meant to invoke this specific meaning, or anything even remotely similar. Just clarifying that "monkey / ape / etc" as a racialized insult has often been applied to asian ethnic groups in the past.
That is in fact quite a stretch. Thanks for the clarification but it'd be akin to someone using the dictionary definition of a word that hasn't been seen by anyone but literature enthusiasts for over 200 years. When someone calls someone else a faggot, we know they don't mean "bag of sticks". Likewise when you call someone an ape, there should be no doubt that it's an attack on appearance not on ape.
I agree there should have been a remark that Regi does not look like a Monkey.
Or any part of it at all. I watched the whole thing tonight, and he made a bizarre Planet of the Apes reference. Unless you are obsessed with racism, and looking for racism, you shouldn't see racism. AKA, only racists saw the comment as racist.
You're Ugly.
oh sorry i shouldn't say that, it's not your fault you're ugly, you have no control over that.
that's how the apology comes off. you don't add the extra lines about control if you want an apology to have no backlash. i don't think it was intentional, but it comes off very dickish.
No, the people attacking him are. When I watched the show I saw the "offensive" part, and thought to myself, people are going to feign outrage about this. I never thought, that thoron was racist, so I was rational, and never offended. Like I said, you need to be looking for third tier "code words" to think he is, which the is, of course, a goal for some people: to be offended.
i dont think people call Asians monkeys, so i think he was making a more appearance based insult(which is partially true to be fair, not to offend). But calling him racist is pretty dumb imo.
To clarify and not to (explicitly) disagree with you otherwise: "monkey" as a racialized insult has quite a long history of varying uses. It tends to imply that the bearer of the label is (relatively to the speaker) less-evolved in some sense, which has historically included everyone that isn't white, and occasionally some white ethnic groups as well. This includes people of asian descent.
To give an example, within predominantly asian multi-cultural areas, the insult is typically applied to people of south-east asian descent, primarily Filipino people. Specifically, the insult in this context refers to both the perceived appearance of the labelled people in question, as well as the stereotype that they climb up trees and eat fruit (primarily mangoes) as children.
I'm not saying Thorin meant to invoke this specific meaning, or anything even remotely similar. Just clarifying that "monkey / ape / etc" as a racialized insult has often been applied to asian ethnic groups in the past.
That is in fact quite a stretch. Thanks for the clarification but it'd be akin to someone using the dictionary definition of a word that hasn't been seen by anyone but literature enthusiasts for over 200 years. When someone calls someone else a faggot, we know they don't mean "bag of sticks". Likewise when you call someone an ape, there should be no doubt that it's an attack on appearance not on ape.
I have to disagree with you a little here. While I agree with your sentiment that the common usage of the term / meaning behind the insult has shifted over time and across contexts, I feel as though you greatly underestimate the current prevalence of systemic racial oppression justified with pseudo-biology. Beyond this, I don't think we actually disagree, allow me to clarify:
"Ape" as an insult describing an individual (such as Reggie) can probably be interpreted as an insult based on the properties of that individual (such as the irrefutable photographic evidence proving that Reggie does, in fact, resemble a non-human primate of some kind). If the insult describes a group of people rather than an individual, there should be no doubt that it's an attack on perceived ethnic qualities (pseduo-biology) rather than individual qualities.
You don't seem to disagree with this, I just want to clarify the racialized nature of the insult that stems from it's history and continues to persist, regardless of if the meaning of the insult itself has changed.
Or any part of it at all. I watched the whole thing tonight, and he made a bizarre Planet of the Apes reference. Unless you are obsessed with racism, and looking for racism, you shouldn't see racism. AKA, only racists saw the comment as racist.
You're Ugly.
oh sorry i shouldn't say that, it's not your fault you're ugly, you have no control over that.
that's how the apology comes off. you don't add the extra lines about control if you want an apology to have no backlash. i don't think it was intentional, but it comes off very dickish.
No, the people attacking him are. When I watched the show I saw the "offensive" part, and thought to myself, people are going to feign outrage about this. I never thought, that thoron was racist, so I was rational, and never offended. Like I said, you need to be looking for third tier "code words" to think he is, which the is, of course, a goal for some people: to be offended.
i dont think people call Asians monkeys, so i think he was making a more appearance based insult(which is partially true to be fair, not to offend). But calling him racist is pretty dumb imo.
They don't, in America/Europe its an insult traditionally reserved for those of African descent. The internet loves to be offended though, so we get this. And I am traditionally a tsm defender, because they are traditionally not with attacking.
You are incorrect. Throughout history, comparing non Caucasians to animals has been quite prevalent. However, I don't think there was any racial intent on Thorin's part so I think this whole thing was blown way out of proportion. To me, the apology statement looked fine, both parties should move on so we can get some good SI episodes and TSM interviews.
On June 11 2014 15:47 canikizu wrote: It's quite fun reading Monte's tweets, the tones before and after the OnGamer article are so different.
To be fair, a lot of his knowledge of the situation was given to him by a clearly angry Thorin, so it was a little misconstrued (although he totally should have taken the time to get a better grasp of the reason Regi was leaving before typing out asinine tweets)
Or any part of it at all. I watched the whole thing tonight, and he made a bizarre Planet of the Apes reference. Unless you are obsessed with racism, and looking for racism, you shouldn't see racism. AKA, only racists saw the comment as racist.
You're Ugly.
oh sorry i shouldn't say that, it's not your fault you're ugly, you have no control over that.
that's how the apology comes off. you don't add the extra lines about control if you want an apology to have no backlash. i don't think it was intentional, but it comes off very dickish.
No, the people attacking him are. When I watched the show I saw the "offensive" part, and thought to myself, people are going to feign outrage about this. I never thought, that thoron was racist, so I was rational, and never offended. Like I said, you need to be looking for third tier "code words" to think he is, which the is, of course, a goal for some people: to be offended.
i dont think people call Asians monkeys, so i think he was making a more appearance based insult(which is partially true to be fair, not to offend). But calling him racist is pretty dumb imo.
They don't, in America/Europe its an insult traditionally reserved for those of African descent. The internet loves to be offended though, so we get this. And I am traditionally a tsm defender, because they are traditionally not with attacking.
You are incorrect. Throughout history, comparing non Caucasians to animals has been quite prevalent. However, I don't think there was any racial intent on Thorin's part so I think this whole thing was blown way out of proportion. To me, the apology statement looked fine, both parties should move on so we can get some good SI episodes and TSM interviews.
I doubt we'll see any TSM interviews regardless. The original intention for not doing interviews was because TSM wanted to focus on improving and staying away from media. This was Locodoco's idea, not Regi. Imo, this makes good sense since the last thing TSM needs is their players/team getting demoralized by media. We've all seen how reddit, FB, twitter, etc... can fuck up players and teams into performing even worse.
The blacklisting of onGamers came as a result of the SI episode with Thorin's really unprofessional remark along with Regi's assumption that Travis told Thorin/Monte to bash him/TSM on SI (which according to Travis was untrue).
I also think Thorin's apology is a good place to start to fix bridges, even if it could be a mite inflammatory.
On June 11 2014 15:47 canikizu wrote: It's quite fun reading Monte's tweets, the tones before and after the OnGamer article are so different.
To be fair, a lot of his knowledge of the situation was given to him by a clearly angry Thorin, so it was a little misconstrued (although he totally should have taken the time to get a better grasp of the reason Regi was leaving before typing out asinine tweets)
I also find it kinda funny how Monte went off like that considering Hotshot was actually backing Regi (or at the very least being very sympathetic to Regi's side) on his stream when this shit all went down.
EPT
