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Alright, we're going to call it a day with all the Thorin drama, guys. I figured if it was about SI, onGamers, TSM, etc, it had some relevance to League but somehow you guys managed to devolve the discussion into an issue about race of all things.
Enough is enough. Let's move along now.
-NeoIllusions |
On June 06 2014 17:12 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 17:10 PrinceXizor wrote:
BTs passive gives an advantage to having more lifesteal though, as all your excess lifesteal helps build the shield quicker when you top off hp. You should be going for BT over IE when you have a timing in mind to use the BT its now an item that favors initiating teams to let your carry build up the shield right before the fight and then go in with bonus shield. Yes, but the shield only builds when you're full hp. You're realistically never really gonna have full hp except when you're farming and first entering a fight. The new BT passive is kinda like a one time 400 hp shield that you have to charge up before hand. I really don't think that's gonna be better than IE passive.
Its not going to be better for the whole length of the fight, but quick engage and then retrest strategies or frontloaded damage champions will use it much better, and if you get serkers + BT and then go for a push to get a couple towers off of BT while the opponent is sitting on their ass with 2 dorans and a BF sword + pickaxe across from you.
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On June 06 2014 17:15 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 17:12 Ryuu314 wrote:On June 06 2014 17:10 PrinceXizor wrote:
BTs passive gives an advantage to having more lifesteal though, as all your excess lifesteal helps build the shield quicker when you top off hp. You should be going for BT over IE when you have a timing in mind to use the BT its now an item that favors initiating teams to let your carry build up the shield right before the fight and then go in with bonus shield. Yes, but the shield only builds when you're full hp. You're realistically never really gonna have full hp except when you're farming and first entering a fight. The new BT passive is kinda like a one time 400 hp shield that you have to charge up before hand. I really don't think that's gonna be better than IE passive. Its not going to be better for the whole length of the fight, but quick engage and then retrest strategies or frontloaded damage champions will use it much better, and if you get serkers + BT and then go for a push to get a couple towers off of BT while the opponent is sitting on their ass with 2 dorans and a BF sword + pickaxe across from you.
I don't see how frontloaded damage champions will use BT better than IE. Both give same amount of flat damage... I suppose poke strats would use it better than IE, but even then I'd rather have an IE than a BT. I think you're vastly over-valuing the (up to) 400 hp shield. In order to get that max value shield, you not only have to heal to full, but then you have to lifesteal an additional 400 damage, which is quite a lot. Plus, according to the red post, the shield on BT scales heavily non-linearly. Which means that the item timing in which a completed BT *might* out-perform an IE is also when the shield is reasonably weak.
Zerks+BT costs the almost same amount as 2Dblade+IE (~300 gold difference).
The new BT passive is just not that good imo. A time-decaying, non-linear scaling 400 hp shield that only builds when you're at full hp is just...underwhelming to me. I wish Riot would've given Bloodthirster an activated or triggered ability that doubles or triples your lifesteal. Fits Bloodthirster better thematically plus also acts as a pseudo-"defensive" option.
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Lifesteal was not the reason why everyone build BT. It was simply more cost efficient than IE when fully stacked. Moreover, ADCs nowadays all have AD scaling abilities so it is no longer a purely autoattack class like Trist, Ashe, Kog, and Vayne. The lifesteal was an extra luxury but it is by no means the main reason for BT's dominance.
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On June 06 2014 17:21 Ryuu314 wrote:
I don't see how frontloaded damage champions will use BT better than IE. Both give same amount of flat damage... I suppose poke strats would use it better than IE.
Zerks+BT costs the almost same amount as 2Dblade+IE (~300 gold difference).
Frontloaded champs need to get in blow all their cooldowns and deal as much damage in the first few seconds, having more effective HP lets them stay in there and get that done, even if they are stunned up early. an IE just gives them more dps. which doesn't matter if your goal in fights is catch someone -> blow them up -> engage 5v4 or press a tower. BTs better for that playstyle still. IE is not its more for building for the later game than that. and if the IE Dblade user isn't getting boots then that's a bit of a problem for a teamfight also.
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On June 06 2014 17:28 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 17:21 Ryuu314 wrote:
I don't see how frontloaded damage champions will use BT better than IE. Both give same amount of flat damage... I suppose poke strats would use it better than IE.
Zerks+BT costs the almost same amount as 2Dblade+IE (~300 gold difference). Frontloaded champs need to get in blow all their cooldowns and deal as much damage in the first few seconds, having more effective HP lets them stay in there and get that done, even if they are stunned up early. an IE just gives them more dps. which doesn't matter if your goal in fights is catch someone -> blow them up -> engage 5v4 or press a tower. BTs better for that playstyle still. IE is not its more for building for the later game than that. and if the IE Dblade user isn't getting boots then that's a bit of a problem for a teamfight also.
How do they get more ehp if they are dealing front loaded damage? Spells don't proc lifesteal and they would not have any shield at all if they take any damage because then lifesteal would have to work to get back to max health first. The only scenario in which BT's new passive would be useful is if the BT building ADC stay really far back until everyone on the other team burn all their gap closing CDs. That way he'd be able to get free damage off without facing any retaliation. However, he would need an effective front line that doesn't melt quickly for that to work.
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On June 06 2014 17:33 AsianEcksDragon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 17:28 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 06 2014 17:21 Ryuu314 wrote:
I don't see how frontloaded damage champions will use BT better than IE. Both give same amount of flat damage... I suppose poke strats would use it better than IE.
Zerks+BT costs the almost same amount as 2Dblade+IE (~300 gold difference). Frontloaded champs need to get in blow all their cooldowns and deal as much damage in the first few seconds, having more effective HP lets them stay in there and get that done, even if they are stunned up early. an IE just gives them more dps. which doesn't matter if your goal in fights is catch someone -> blow them up -> engage 5v4 or press a tower. BTs better for that playstyle still. IE is not its more for building for the later game than that. and if the IE Dblade user isn't getting boots then that's a bit of a problem for a teamfight also. How do they get more ehp if they are dealing front loaded damage? Spells don't proc lifesteal and they would not have any shield at all if they take any damage because then lifesteal would have to work to get back to max health first. The only scenario in which BT's new passive would be useful is if the BT building ADC stay really far back until everyone on the other team burn all their gap closing CDs. That way he'd be able to get free damage off without facing any retaliation. However, he would need an effective front line that doesn't melt quickly for that to work.
presumably fights would happen either in lanes, in the jungle or around one of the monster objectives all places there are things to attack prior to a fight. not to mention in the case i bring up where you are trying to catch someone out before fighting you'll go into that tower siege/ 5v4 fight with bonus health which is better than going into it with better crits.
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The problem is that mana as a stat is way overcosted (see Glacial Shroud, the fuck were you thinking Riot?), and mp5 is fine early on but becomes wya overcosted after a few items too. Should really take that into account, with basic and low-tier items charging more for the mp5, but higher-tier items not factoring mana as much into the cost.
Also damn, the cutlass and BotRK sustain nerf is real. x_o
WHAT THE FUCK THAT COMBINE COST ON CRUCIBLE. The heck. How's that accessible at all, that's more than the freaking high-end support item. That's so stupidly costly it's mind-boggling, and it'll be bought anyway because of how good it is. Riot doesn't seem to understand that: we were happy that they seemed to have taken a page out of the support itemisation book, but... nope.
Increasing the price of high-end support/gp5 items and core items for supports is only going to stiffle the build variety because they'll have that much less gold to build other things with... they're not going to start not-building Crucible.
Ardent Censer is absurd and probably closer to what Zeke's was supposed to be when it was in its Stark's iteration. I wonder if they realise the irony when they use Thresh as an example "now he can also AoE buff your team with AS!".
I'd rather reduce the AP from Grail than the MR. Sure, it being ubiquitous now makes mid lane much more passive because it's harder to kill people and everyone clears for free. However, reducing its MR and its defensive/utility role received from Chalice, not from upgrading it to Grail wtf Riot) is only attacking the symptom, not the root. If you reduced the AP so that someone like Ziggs or LB can't waveclear and kill people too easily (well Ziggs will still pretty much instaclear, just needs one more Q), and maybe made it so every champion doesn't buy it, suddenly you're looking at 40 less MR on a bunch of champions, not 15 less like right now, and they have more AP (from buying actual offensive items) too.
Randuin's raped, still as expensive. Yup.
(Don't even get me started on how ineffective to build FH is as a mana/CDR item because of how shit Shroud is and how much of the stats comes from the combine.)
I guess I need to look at the Draven skin VO if I want good news out of this.
On June 06 2014 17:11 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 17:06 wei2coolman wrote:
Just me or did BotRK get rekt? That Lifesteal difference is massive... Also they didn't give it anymore AS despite dagger buff.
It's a net loss in lifesteal, but it's not necessarily that big. The proc damage is going up, which means the proc heal also goes up. 5% lifesteal loss for 3% target current health heal. It's a net loss, yes, but I don't think it's gonna be that huge.
You don't heal off the on-hit damage.
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On June 06 2014 17:35 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 17:33 AsianEcksDragon wrote:On June 06 2014 17:28 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 06 2014 17:21 Ryuu314 wrote:
I don't see how frontloaded damage champions will use BT better than IE. Both give same amount of flat damage... I suppose poke strats would use it better than IE.
Zerks+BT costs the almost same amount as 2Dblade+IE (~300 gold difference). Frontloaded champs need to get in blow all their cooldowns and deal as much damage in the first few seconds, having more effective HP lets them stay in there and get that done, even if they are stunned up early. an IE just gives them more dps. which doesn't matter if your goal in fights is catch someone -> blow them up -> engage 5v4 or press a tower. BTs better for that playstyle still. IE is not its more for building for the later game than that. and if the IE Dblade user isn't getting boots then that's a bit of a problem for a teamfight also. How do they get more ehp if they are dealing front loaded damage? Spells don't proc lifesteal and they would not have any shield at all if they take any damage because then lifesteal would have to work to get back to max health first. The only scenario in which BT's new passive would be useful is if the BT building ADC stay really far back until everyone on the other team burn all their gap closing CDs. That way he'd be able to get free damage off without facing any retaliation. However, he would need an effective front line that doesn't melt quickly for that to work. presumably fights would happen either in lanes, in the jungle or around one of the monster objectives all places there are things to attack prior to a fight. not to mention in the case i bring up where you are trying to catch someone out before fighting you'll go into that tower siege/ 5v4 fight with bonus health which is better than going into it with better crits.
lol your team isn't going to wait for you to slowly autoattack every minion to death during a siege. They'll use their aoe to quickly clear the wave. If they do, you're just giving the other team more time to group up and defend. And assuming that they are not stupid, they would not leave the safety of their tower to fight you if you aleady have the shield charged.
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On June 06 2014 17:39 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
lol your team isn't going to wait for you to slowly autoattack every minion to death during a siege. They'll use their aoe to quickly clear the wave. If they do, you're just giving the other team more time to group up and defend. Takes away the whole point of a 5v4 siege.
with a BT and normalish runesmasteries you should be getting your full shield in 5 autos. there are innumerable sieges in pro games that a carry can get 3-5 hits off per wave. thats like suggesting your team will never let you lifesteal back to full when you need to.
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On June 06 2014 17:44 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 17:39 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
lol your team isn't going to wait for you to slowly autoattack every minion to death during a siege. They'll use their aoe to quickly clear the wave. If they do, you're just giving the other team more time to group up and defend. Takes away the whole point of a 5v4 siege. with a BT and normalish runesmasteries you should be getting your full shield in 5 autos. there are innumerable sieges in pro games that a carry can get 3-5 hits off per wave. thats like suggesting your team will never let you lifesteal back to full when you need to.
You don't think that's too many conditions to fulfill?
1. It has to be during a lane siege or contesting of a jungle creep/dragon.
2. You need ~5 autos before either team engages.
3. If you don't have the shield then the only use for it is if you stay really far back, take zero damage, and enters fight after everyone has blown their gap closers. Let's be real here. No one is gonna do that, especially with a champ like Graves. Varus and Ashe are the only ones that play like that simply because they don't have a choice. And if I will have free, unretaliated damage then I would still rather have crit than a shield.
As opposed to:
1. 25% chance for 125% crit, whenever. 4 autos = guaranteed crit.
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On June 06 2014 17:54 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
You don't think that's too many conditions to fulfill?
1. It has to be during a lane siege or contesting of a jungle creep/dragon.
2. You need ~5 autos before either team engages.
3. If you don't have the shield then the only use for it is if you stay really far back, take zero damage, and engage after everyone has blown their gap closers. Let's be real here. No one is gonna do that, especially with a champ like Graves.
As opposed to:
1. 25% chance for 125% crit, whenever. 4 autos = guaranteed crit.
yeah but if you go into that detail you can make any item in the game seem not worth it. nit-picking scenarios that tend to rely on the other team single mindedly dedicating themselves to countering a first item on your carry seems a bit much.
it has its uses in timings same as other items, IE does more DPS, but winning a game isn't just adding up your teams DPS and seeing which teams is bigger it involves timings and strategies.
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[QUOTE]On June 06 2014 17:06 wei2coolman wrote:
Just me or did BotRK get rekt? That Lifesteal difference is massive... [/quote[
No. The lifesteal was never the strong part of BotRK anyway since it had so little AD and because attack speed tends to be such a low value stat. The most valuable part of BotRK was always its active.
Compared to the big lifesteal items like Hydra or BT a BotRK champion will always be out life-stealed by the other; champions which buy BotRK do it because they have attack speed scaling (Jax, Shyvanna) and they want the extra slow to chase.
[QUOTE]On June 06 2014 17:28 PrinceXizor wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 06 2014 17:21 Ryuu314 wrote:
I don't see how frontloaded damage champions will use BT better than IE. Both give same amount of flat damage... I suppose poke strats would use it better than IE.
Zerks+BT costs the almost same amount as 2Dblade+IE (~300 gold difference).[/QUOTE]
Frontloaded champs need to get in blow all their cooldowns and deal as much damage in the first few seconds, having more effective HP lets them stay in there and get that done, even if they are stunned up early. an IE just gives them more dps. which doesn't matter if your goal in fights is catch someone -> blow them up -> engage 5v4 or press a tower. BTs better for that playstyle still. IE is not its more for building for the later game than that. and if the IE Dblade user isn't getting boots then that's a bit of a problem for a teamfight also.[/QUOTE]
IE gives them crit and bonus damage on the attacks that crit. If you're a burst damage ADC so long as you get one auto attack in your expected burst with the new IE is significantly higher than with the new BT. The BT price increases mean that it won't has as much of a timing advantage either.
BT doesn't seem like it would be that good of an item on anyone. Some champions who have bonus AD/on hit damage will have an advantage in purchasing a lower AD first item since it means getting to the primary attack speed scaling second. They could buy BT into Shiv and exploit item timing (especially against BT->Triforce champions). But since BT now costs 3500 this avenue is basically cut off.
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This confused me a little. What game is still in laning phase by the time an AD has IE or even a BT? I thought in pro games now generally by the time the one AD has got a BT it's either due to lane swaps or they have the advantage and already winning bot lane. Don't really see many situations where neither team wins the lane and both get BT. Am I missing something or are people just complaining about weird stuff?
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Even in lane, I don't see the BT as any good.
BT = 3500g
for 80 AD + 15% lifesteal
BF sword + pickaxe + 2 dorans = 3355g
for 89 AD + 140 health + 6% lifesteal
I see no way for the BT to snowball with a shield because that could be easily prevented if the latter just trade often to prevent it. He lose out on 7 health per trade but he has a 140 health cushion. The BT would have to trade 20 times to start seeing a gain. Don't forget that trades usually involve skill as well, in which case the latter clearly wins. The passive is simply garbage.
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On June 06 2014 18:22 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
Even in lane, I don't see the BT as any good.
BT = 3500g
for 80 AD + 15% lifesteal
BF sword + pickaxe + 2 dorans = 3355g
for 89 AD + 140 health + 6% lifesteal
I see no way for the BT to snowball with a shield because that could be easily prevented if the latter just trade often to prevent it. He lose out on 7 health per trade but he has a 140 health cushion. The BT would have to trade 20 times to start seeing a gain. Don't forget that trades usually involve skill as well, in which case the latter clearly wins. The passive is simply garbage.
15% lifesteal versus 6% lifesteal is a big advantage though. You can't just count how one trade will go, the guy with the BT will heal up on creeps WAY faster.
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On June 06 2014 18:22 Numy wrote:https://twitter.com/CLGDoublelift/status/474659672692379648This confused me a little. What game is still in laning phase by the time an AD has IE or even a BT? I thought in pro games now generally by the time the one AD has got a BT it's either due to lane swaps or they have the advantage and already winning bot lane. Don't really see many situations where neither team wins the lane and both get BT. Am I missing something or are people just complaining about weird stuff?
soloqueue lane phases last enough for 1 item timing to still be involved with laning.
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United States47024 Posts
So, Ardent Censer doesn't look like it's limited to only champion ability shields/heals.
Face of the Mountain + Ardent Censer?
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On June 06 2014 18:42 TheYango wrote:
So, Ardent Censer doesn't look like it's limited to only champion ability shields/heals.
Face of the Mountain + Ardent Censer?
Or even better, locket?
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On June 06 2014 12:31 dae wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 12:14 JimmiC wrote:
Max e on mf is fun and deadly, thanks zerg i believe? Or whoever was putting it out there. I was the first, the one, the only. That shit carried me to 99lp D1 late s2/early s3. 25 game winstreak or something with it.
QFT but remember Q max was actually pretty good back then 
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On June 06 2014 18:39 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 18:22 Numy wrote:https://twitter.com/CLGDoublelift/status/474659672692379648This confused me a little. What game is still in laning phase by the time an AD has IE or even a BT? I thought in pro games now generally by the time the one AD has got a BT it's either due to lane swaps or they have the advantage and already winning bot lane. Don't really see many situations where neither team wins the lane and both get BT. Am I missing something or are people just complaining about weird stuff? soloqueue lane phases last enough for 1 item timing to still be involved with laning.
Yea I get that but the tweet was about pro games from a pro player. Solo queue laning phases also generally revolve around bigger errors in plays than just two teams playing identical and a crit deciding everything.
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EPT
