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On April 23 2014 08:30 killerdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 08:23 Ketara wrote:On April 23 2014 07:46 Dusty wrote:On April 23 2014 07:31 Ketara wrote:
PS:
5 flat HP seals and 4 flat armor seals is stupid and you should not be listening to Rekkles. Why? gif me math pls Instead, I'll give you a flowchart. Am I going to buy a lifesteal item at some point in the game? - If yes, NEVER TAKE HEALTH RUNES - If no, possibly take health runes Are you building a vamp scepter on ADC at some point ever? Yes you are. Don't take health runes. You don't take health runes to be stronger over the entire laning phase, you take them to be stronger at level 1/2. In 2v2 lanes that's when the skirmish which typically decides how the next few levels will go happens, and having 40-50 more ehp in that fight can really help. If you could choose between a (hypothetical numbers) 25% chance of randomly dying level 2, but have 4 more base armour, or definitely not dying level 2, but losing 4 armour in exchange for 32 hp then clearly you'd choose to lose the the armour. Not saying it's a 25% chance but it's definitely a non negligible one. Of course if you're playing in gold or whatever where people don't even push for lvl 2 half the time, then the benefit isn't really there, but if you're often fighting at level 2 then I don't think you can pretend there's no benefit to it. I mean, i could use exactly the same logic to argue that you should only run scaling armour in bot lane, because over the course of the game it's so much better and synergises so well with lifesteal etc etc. But if you come into lane with scaling armour and I have flat armour/hp, you can bet we're all inning you level 1/2/3
You know what the difference is between Health and Armor seals at level 1 on an ADC?
Lets look at Lucian.
He's got 22 armor (seriously? That is a ton) and 470 HP at level 1. With items and masteries he's got 22 armor and 603.58 HP, as well as 150 HP from a potion and 95 HP from Heal.
First of all I want to point out that in bot lane, you are not going to be taking very much magic damage at level 1. Lets just get that out of the way.
Now, lets look at the EHP differences in these rune setups.
9 Armor: 1111.6398
5 HP, 4 Armor: 1121.1228
9 HP: 1125.74
Now I want to note a couple things.
#1 - When Lucian hits level 2, that gap closes by 5 as he gains stats from levelling.
#2 - Killing the creeps it will take Lucian to hit level 2 closes the gap by another 6.5 from his Dorans Blade and Feast.
This means that Lucian only has to passive regen for about 30 seconds before flat armor has beaten flat HP. Alternatively, he could I dunno, hit level 3 without dying.
OR, he could autoattack to push the wave at level 1 because he's so scared about the enemy teams level 2 all in, which means his dorans blade will have made the difference between HP and Armor by the time the enemy team hits level 2.
Basically, if you are taking flat Health over flat Armor as ADC, you are basically saying "I want to be worse from levels 3 to 18 so that I can take 14 extra damage at level 1."
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On April 23 2014 08:50 Alaric wrote:And you still get fucked by the Banshee's. 
Actually i don't think you would be
Your Q might not apply the passive but your auto's certainly would. At which point its not a spell to block. Alternately the BV will only prevent the Q passive stack application(if it does that) and not the stun. BV won't prevent any of the damage mitigation with his e which feels like the biggest part of his kit.
In other news, I've played two games with Curse Voice and yea, definitely cheating.
In other other news the Braum release skin sucks
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On April 23 2014 08:52 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 08:30 killerdog wrote:On April 23 2014 08:23 Ketara wrote:On April 23 2014 07:46 Dusty wrote:On April 23 2014 07:31 Ketara wrote:
PS:
5 flat HP seals and 4 flat armor seals is stupid and you should not be listening to Rekkles. Why? gif me math pls Instead, I'll give you a flowchart. Am I going to buy a lifesteal item at some point in the game? - If yes, NEVER TAKE HEALTH RUNES - If no, possibly take health runes Are you building a vamp scepter on ADC at some point ever? Yes you are. Don't take health runes. You don't take health runes to be stronger over the entire laning phase, you take them to be stronger at level 1/2. In 2v2 lanes that's when the skirmish which typically decides how the next few levels will go happens, and having 40-50 more ehp in that fight can really help. If you could choose between a (hypothetical numbers) 25% chance of randomly dying level 2, but have 4 more base armour, or definitely not dying level 2, but losing 4 armour in exchange for 32 hp then clearly you'd choose to lose the the armour. Not saying it's a 25% chance but it's definitely a non negligible one. Of course if you're playing in gold or whatever where people don't even push for lvl 2 half the time, then the benefit isn't really there, but if you're often fighting at level 2 then I don't think you can pretend there's no benefit to it. I mean, i could use exactly the same logic to argue that you should only run scaling armour in bot lane, because over the course of the game it's so much better and synergises so well with lifesteal etc etc. But if you come into lane with scaling armour and I have flat armour/hp, you can bet we're all inning you level 1/2/3 But as soon as you auto attack in the 2v2 a couple of times(because you have dorans blade) the armor is better. And if you take near any harass before the fight and have time to sustain a bit the armor is better. And if you pop a potion during the fight the armor is better and if... I think you get the point
Firstly, a lot of the damage in the 2v2 fight is magic. Look at the supports. Thresh, lots of magic (hook + e + flay) leona, annie, nami, ali, morgana, karma etc etc
secondly I think you're over valuing armour over health. You're not going to have time to be healing 200-300 health between arriving in lane, and an all in fight at level 2-3, hell most adc's don't even run lifesteal anymore, so it's even less relevant. And even if you lose 200 health level 1, use your health pot, and passive regen/dorans to be full health again for the 2v2, you'd still be in a better position with health runes, and having 40 more ehp for the fight, then running pure armour, and having lost 194~ health instead 200, but having 40 less ehp for the fight. The series of events where flat armour is better then health/armour is so convuluted and unlikely (if even possible) that I really don't see that as a plausible argument in favour of armour.
At the end of the day, many of the best adc's in the world are running armour/health. As much as you want to numbercrunch/theorise/whatever about how it's clearly worse then pure armour, the mere fact that they're doing so implies it's at least better in some situations, and likely most of them.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 23 2014 09:00 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 08:30 killerdog wrote:On April 23 2014 08:23 Ketara wrote:On April 23 2014 07:46 Dusty wrote:On April 23 2014 07:31 Ketara wrote:
PS:
5 flat HP seals and 4 flat armor seals is stupid and you should not be listening to Rekkles. Why? gif me math pls Instead, I'll give you a flowchart. Am I going to buy a lifesteal item at some point in the game? - If yes, NEVER TAKE HEALTH RUNES - If no, possibly take health runes Are you building a vamp scepter on ADC at some point ever? Yes you are. Don't take health runes. You don't take health runes to be stronger over the entire laning phase, you take them to be stronger at level 1/2. In 2v2 lanes that's when the skirmish which typically decides how the next few levels will go happens, and having 40-50 more ehp in that fight can really help. If you could choose between a (hypothetical numbers) 25% chance of randomly dying level 2, but have 4 more base armour, or definitely not dying level 2, but losing 4 armour in exchange for 32 hp then clearly you'd choose to lose the the armour. Not saying it's a 25% chance but it's definitely a non negligible one. Of course if you're playing in gold or whatever where people don't even push for lvl 2 half the time, then the benefit isn't really there, but if you're often fighting at level 2 then I don't think you can pretend there's no benefit to it. I mean, i could use exactly the same logic to argue that you should only run scaling armour in bot lane, because over the course of the game it's so much better and synergises so well with lifesteal etc etc. But if you come into lane with scaling armour and I have flat armour/hp, you can bet we're all inning you level 1/2/3 You know what the difference is between Health and Armor seals at level 1 on an ADC? Lets look at Lucian. He's got 22 armor (seriously? That is a ton) and 470 HP at level 1. With items and masteries he's got 22 armor and 603.58 HP, as well as 150 HP from a potion and 95 HP from Heal. First of all I want to point out that in bot lane, you are not going to be taking very much magic damage at level 1. Lets just get that out of the way. Now, lets look at the EHP differences in these rune setups. 9 Armor: 1111.6398 5 HP, 4 Armor: 1121.1228 9 HP: 1125.74 Now I want to note a couple things. #1 - When Lucian hits level 2, that gap closes by 5 as he gains stats from levelling. #2 - Killing the creeps it will take Lucian to hit level 2 closes the gap by another 6.5 from his Dorans Blade and Feast. This means that Lucian only has to passive regen for about 30 seconds before flat armor has beaten flat HP. Alternatively, he could I dunno, hit level 3 without dying. OR, he could autoattack to push the wave at level 1 because he's so scared about the enemy teams level 2 all in, which means his dorans blade will have made the difference between HP and Armor by the time the enemy team hits level 2. Basically, if you are taking flat Health over flat Armor as ADC, you are basically saying "I want to be worse from levels 3 to 18 so that I can take 14 extra damage at level 1."
You're completely ignoring the fact that 30-40% of the damage burst if you get caught is going to be magic damage from most typical supports. You can't just decide that's not relevant, when the adc will generally eat at least two magic damage abilities, and in some casses extra magic damage from passives/on hit effects. Some adc's also have magic damage at level 2, trist/ez/(sometimes)lucian etc
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Speaking of Meteos, the guy just goes Legendary at 11min on Elise.
Is this really challenger lomoQ ?
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There is a considerable difference between pros and even the highest level of amateur play.
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Lets put it another way.
In a best case scenario, taking Health seals at level 1 means you can take 1 more autoattack than you could with Armor seals.
Level 2 they're about equal.
Level 3-18 Armor is better.
What percentage of your bot lane games is the entire lane decided because if only you could have taken one more autoattack before hitting level 2 you would have killed them instead of them killing you? Is it really all that high?
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On April 23 2014 08:51 Amui wrote:dat splash.
Need a splash art of mantheon vs shyvana.
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On April 23 2014 09:12 Ketara wrote:
Lets put it another way.
In a best case scenario, taking Health seals at level 1 means you can take 1 more autoattack than you could with Armor seals.
Level 2 they're about equal.
Level 3-18 Armor is better.
What percentage of your bot lane games is the entire lane decided because if only you could have taken one more autoattack before hitting level 2 you would have killed them instead of them killing you? Is it really all that high?
Again, I think you're overstating the impact that having 4 extra armour will have over the rest of the game, and also ignoring magic damage. But whatever, lets just agree to disagree and drop it before we end up ruining the thread :p
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I am ignoring the magic damage because it's irrelevant.
Even if 40% of one characters damage is magic (stretching it), and even if half the incoming damage comes from the support over the adc (also stretching it), that's only 20% of overall damage coming from magic.
Given this split, lets look at how it changes our Lucian.
9 Armor: 1130 EHP
9 HP: 1162 EHP
Again, the maximum possible difference is that you will take 1 more autoattack at level 1. In how many of your games does that 1 auto decide the entire lane?
If you get to level 3 without that one magic autoattack killing you, armor is better.
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Even if you straight up had 0 extra armor for the hp runes he isn't overstating the effect of the hp runes. They're at most one auto attack worth of damage because an aa does 80 damage and you don't have 100 armor.
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if you all in at level 2/3 why wouldn't a single autoattack be the difference in deciding who lives and who dies? if it isn't that close then it doesn't really matter what runes you take does it?
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On April 23 2014 09:04 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 08:50 Alaric wrote:And you still get fucked by the Banshee's. Actually i don't think you would be Your Q might not apply the passive but your auto's certainly would. At which point its not a spell to block. Alternately the BV will only prevent the Q passive stack application(if it does that) and not the stun. BV won't prevent any of the damage mitigation with his e which feels like the biggest part of his kit. In other news, I've played two games with Curse Voice and yea, definitely cheating. In other other news the Braum release skin sucks
People posted too much while I was typing, I was saying that in answer to whoever mentioned Braum phasing out Malphite support because of his ult and stuff like enabling Yasuo's ult. But even with his low cd 1k range Q he's still not the best at popping Banshee's to allow his ult to hit people.
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On April 23 2014 09:30 chalice wrote:
if you all in at level 2/3 why wouldn't a single autoattack be the difference in deciding who lives and who dies? if it isn't that close then it doesn't really matter what runes you take does it?
That's the point. If it's not going to be decided by 1 auto, it doesn't matter which runes you take.
And since armor runes are better from level 3 to 18, take armor.
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I still don't agree, for several reasons, but whatever. This discussion is going nowhere.
On another note, the PBE monitoring sites have published braums skill descriptions from the client (with ratios/numbers :D) Apparently they aren't tested ingame so there might be typos, but it should give a decent idea.
+ Show Spoiler +Concussive Blows ( Passive ) "Braum adds stacks of Concussive Blows to enemies with basic attacks or Winter's Bite. He and his allies continue to add stacks with basic attacks, at 4 stacks their target will be stunned." Winter's Bite ( Q ) Braum propels freezing ice from his shield dealing 80/125/170/215/260 (+ RATIO) [2.5% of Braum's Max Health] magic damage to the first target hit and slowing them by 70%, decaying over the next 2 seconds. Applies a stack of Concussive Blows Cooldown: 10/9/8/7/6 Mana Cost: 50/55/60/65/70 Stand Behind Me ( W ) Braum leaps to a target allied champion or minion. On arrival, Braum and the ally gain Y Armor and X Magic Resist (20/22.5/25/27.5/30 plus 14/15.5/17/18.5/20% of Braum's bonus Armor/Magic Resist) for 3 seconds Cooldown: 14/13/12/11/10 Mana Cost: 30/40/50/60/70 Unbreakable ( E ) Braum reduces incoming damage and blocks for allies behind him. Braum raises his shield in a direction for 3/3.25/3.5/3.75/4 seconds negating the damage of the next attack from this direction. Subsequent attacks deal 30/32.5/35/37.5/40%% reduced damage. Braum interceptsprojectiles, causing them to hit him and be destroyed. Braum gains 10% Movement Speed for the duration. Cooldown: 18/16/14/12/10 Mana Cost: 30/35/40/45/50 Glacial Fissure ( R ) Braum slams the ground, knocking up enemies nearby and in a line in front of him. A fissure is left along the line that slows enemies. Enemies hit take 150/250/350.0000(+0.6)magic damage. The first champion hit is knocked up for 1.5/1.5/1.5 seconds, subsequent enemies are knocked up briefly. For the next 4 seconds enemies that enter the area are slowed by 60.000% for 1.5 seconds. Cooldown: 140/120/100 Mana Cost: 100 at all ranks source http://www.surrenderat20.net/2014/04/422-pbe-update-braum.html#more
Thoughts? I'm interested in how long a 1.5s knockup will feel, aren't they immune to cleansing/tenacity? And a 4s 60% slowing field is pretty huge, if you're fighting in a semi enclosed area, anyone without a dash basically can't cross it.
Also essentially having a (single use) windwall on a 6 second cd (with full cdr) could potentially shut down a lot of sieging/poking ability of some champions. Also he can move while blocking (with bonus speed.)
No idea how it would feel playing as someone who only has one normal spell which can affect enemies though, if they just ignore you in lane and focus your adc, I don't really see what he can do vs most normal supports. Maybe he'll get pretty high base auto damage to help him actually have lane presence/encourage him to get in there early on? Would fit thematically too
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stupid edit and quote buttons~
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On April 23 2014 09:31 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 09:04 Goumindong wrote:On April 23 2014 08:50 Alaric wrote:And you still get fucked by the Banshee's. Actually i don't think you would be Your Q might not apply the passive but your auto's certainly would. At which point its not a spell to block. Alternately the BV will only prevent the Q passive stack application(if it does that) and not the stun. BV won't prevent any of the damage mitigation with his e which feels like the biggest part of his kit. In other news, I've played two games with Curse Voice and yea, definitely cheating. In other other news the Braum release skin sucks People posted too much while I was typing, I was saying that in answer to whoever mentioned Braum phasing out Malphite support because of his ult and stuff like enabling Yasuo's ult. But even with his low cd 1k range Q he's still not the best at popping Banshee's to allow his ult to hit people.
Oh yea that is definitely fair
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Braum takes damage (not sure if the 40% applies to auto-attacks or all attacks?) from stuff he blocks, though. Yasuo says "nope" to Nidalee, Braum spits "nope" drowned in a modicum of blood.
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On April 23 2014 09:43 Alaric wrote:
Braum takes damage (not sure if the 40% applies to auto-attacks or all attacks?) from stuff he blocks, though. Yasuo says "nope" to Nidalee, Braum spits "nope" drowned in a modicum of blood.
The first attack is ignored, the rest are reduced. And he can recast it every 6 seconds. (assuming support level cdr)
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On April 23 2014 09:44 killerdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 09:43 Alaric wrote:
Braum takes damage (not sure if the 40% applies to auto-attacks or all attacks?) from stuff he blocks, though. Yasuo says "nope" to Nidalee, Braum spits "nope" drowned in a modicum of blood. The first attack is ignored, the rest are reduced. And he can recast it every 6 seconds. (assuming support level cdr)
The more important thing to keep in mind is that Braum can gapclose to friendly champions and he is more likely to stay close to his friendly squishy targets, whereas Yasuo dives in. Braum is definitely more likely to be in good position to block projectiles.
I can see this champion being very strong with strong ranged threats like Ryze, Karthus, and Cassiopeia. When you have Braum on your team protecting a Karthus I think the Karthus will be almost indestructible.
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so... is velkoz like, shit tier? I mean the only place I've ever seen him do okay is support, and even then he sucks massively against like likes of leona or annie.
he never seems to do all that much damage, like orianna levels of damage but with a fraction the utility. and if they have a dash or something to dodge your shit with you effectively do zero damage.
every velkoz I've played with is like, i was sorta WINNING LANE (even tho they'll never actually kill the opposing laner), then proceed to do absolutely nothing because he can't roam, is fragile when dived, and doesn't scale cause of atrocious ratios.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bl3MbwyCAAAiIOI.jpg:large)
