[Patch 4.5] Rune Rework General Discussion - Page 9

On April 03 2014 10:24 Ryuu314 wrote:

IIRC, someone on reddit also analyzed this a while back, except they also looked at aram games and noticed a similar winrate discrepancy (blue side favored significantly).

I'm inclined to think it's something to do with Riot's matchmaking algorithm. Riot said a long time ago that blue side is supposed to have higher combined MMR in order to counterbalance the supposed map advantage of purple side. I think what is happening is that the map imbalance doesn't really play a huge role in games, while the mmr differential is skewing games.

I really don't buy the whole viewing angle thing. Personally, I don't find myself missing any more skillshots from purple side than blue side.

On April 03 2014 20:56 Happy Frog wrote:
I'd like to discuss offensive quint choices on ADC's post patch, as I think the nerf to lifesteal quints is enough to force a change.

Current gold efficiency per quint for the main 3 choices is:

LS: 80~
AD: 79~
AS:110~

Post patch it will be:

LS: 66~
AD: 79~
AS: 150~

So AS will be almost twice the value of AD, and triple the value of lifesteal.

I think almost all right click ADC's should be taking AS quints post patch due to their absurd efficiency. For someone like Caitlyn or Jinx it also has the added bonus of easier weaving of harass and last hitting in lane, and (albeit small) synergy with Dblade.

They may be so good they're worth taking on spell focused champs too but I'll need to look at numbers more carefully when I'm not so tired

On April 03 2014 21:11 killerdog wrote:

I wonder if hp regen quints would fill the void that lifesteal leaves for helping recover from lost trades in the laning phase. If you auto every minion in a wave twice for ~60 damage, with 3 lifesteal quints, you're healing 6 * 120 * 0.045 = 32.4 health per 30s. 3 flat health regen quints will give you 3 * 2.7 * 6 = 48.6 health per 30s, so an extra 16.2 health per wave (~50% more) then lifesteal quints would (typically) give, + without the risk of losing that when you're forced off the wave.

ofc you lose the lategame benefit, but I've always seen lifesteal quints as more of a laning safety net then a lategame investment.

Riot said a long time ago that blue side is supposed to have higher combined MMR in order to counterbalance the supposed map advantage of purple side.

On April 03 2014 08:36 canikizu wrote:
Wasn't at some point in the PBE, they said that the monsterkill charges will start to be stored in from Machete or Razor? If that still goes through, generally you only need to kill like 10, 15 monsters to transform Wriggle to Feral.

On April 03 2014 22:22 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Welp just tried out Gragas a couple of games.

Butchered is the best word to describe it. His W is one of the worst skills I've ever seen. Highly telegraphed, doesn't work well with his e (knocks them away or, you know, they kind of know the body slam is coming when you start drinking and walking slowly at them) and the damage reduction might as well not exist since it only lasts 3 seconds.

E's damage is depressing compared to what it used to be, too, and the massively increased cooldown and nerfed refresh makes hitting it basically a pantheon W style all in. The difference between 16 and 13 ain't much.

His damage in general is just so bad now. He can't trade with mids, he can't threaten to all in them effectively, and he can't tank their harass with his W being nerfed into shit. His passive is pretty much a wash, despite playing hundreds of gragas games I couldn't tell the difference (I get why they did, the old version would've been effectively buffed by his new W being castable every 7 seconds and they didn't want new tanky bruiser gragas to have good sustain). His laning top is as bad as its ever been, if not worse since you can't possibly use E and W to trade with people who actually do damage with their skills and autoattacks like you used to and your fall back of farming and harassing with Q is much worse.

rip fat man

Damage reduction is now applied instantly rather than after completing the channel.

On April 03 2014 22:34 Sufficiency wrote:
Pretty sure with the kind of kit he has, he is morr suitable to play as a top laner or jungler.

On April 03 2014 22:37 Alaric wrote:

This change still lets you reactively use it when the enemy's going on you, regardless of possible interruption by cc. Sure, it's not Kha'Zix's evolved R or Garen's W, but it's not bad against champions with high-ish cooldowns like Lux, LeBlanc, etc.

Can't you cast Q right behind them then E in and use the cc to lock them on the barrel while it charges its damage? The base is high (100 damage and 0.75 AP after 1s at level 1, up to 120+0.9 AP) so it should hurt quite a bit at least early on, before moving from AP to tanky makes your damage drop compared to pre-nerf anyway.

On April 03 2014 22:44 TwoToneTerran wrote:


I didn't try jungle but I would love to see someone try to lane Gragas against Renekton or Shyvanna. I used to run him AP top when we'd get Zeds or Yasuo's mid and the matchups are nightmares(especially Renekton) unless you really outplayed them. You'd get really punished if you ever tried to last hit with your auto unless you had used Q to get them low.

His new Q harass is garbage and he can't possibly trade in a melee fight. His melee trading is much worse now despite him being a "tanky" bruiser because his W is so much worse and his E doesn't scale with ad and is way weaker until you get like 1000AP(Not a joke. 0.7 AD Scaling with his old W was over 100 damage and the gave him .1 Ap scaling to replace his AD scaling. Even with recent 0.3 at level 1 change that's still 300 ap needed to make up for the difference at level 1 E), and the damage is really all that matters in those top lane trades since everyone's so good at pushing and getting back to lane.

He might be better on the competitive scene if he's better at being a tank just for the new CC he has since he can still throw shitty barrels at waves in the 1v3 situation, but I just don't think he can be a tank in competitive play as he's not that naturally tough and his W doesn't really affect his tankiness anymore.

This is obviously a bit of theorycraft but Gragman was my most played champ so I'd like to think I'm speaking from a place of knowledge here.



Casting Q behind people is a lot harder since they've dropped it like 200 range going back to his previous nerfs. Certainly not happening in mid and, while a lot more viable because they're usually melee, in top lane people are fast/have dashes so you can't let it sit there or risk losing the damage while the likes of renekton or shyvanna don't lose any mana in the exchange to get to safety.

If you land Q dead center you might be able to pull the maneuver off, but if you're a bit off the knockback will put them out of the Barrel AoE. This plan is really difficult to execute, really finnicky, and if you mess it up you've done no damage, spent mana, and are stuck overextended with no spells up for awhile since E's a lot worse in the cooldown department.