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On April 21 2014 09:52 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 09:46 iCanada wrote:On April 21 2014 09:45 Sufficiency wrote:On April 21 2014 09:40 iCanada wrote:On April 21 2014 08:31 Eppa! wrote:
I think flare is fine as is. Most even games with a flare vs nonflare junglers are that nonflare junglers gank and get a kill or 2 more and then the flare jungler gets a very stat efficient items. Most flare junglers scale badly because they rely on autos compared to say Eve, Lee and Elise who give more utility.
It is like picking Karma vs Leona and complaining that you were winning lane when Leona is better later with less gold. Except I buy Flare on Junglers with uitility and gank potential like Xin, LS, and Vi. I think the gold genration on Feral Flare is OP, but more than anything I think Feral Flare just is making junglers themselves be smarter. Lot of bad junglers used to just pick like Lee and never farm, but like now they realizing they can power farm, and still have a presence.Now I think junglers are doing a better job thinking out their ganks and are now "carrying hard" not cuz Feral Flare is OP but because they got rid of their 10 crappy ganks with no threat that also reduced the threat on the other team, while also farming an additional 2k worth of gold in the same time period. The gold generation is fine. It's the stacking bonus magic damage per hit on monsters that is not fine. The fact that you can almost solo a baron with just FF + BotRK is definitely not fine. You snowball the game too hard just by yourself because you have way too much objective control as the jungler. But what the hell is the gamestate that you can just walk up to baron and take it anyway? Either your opponent is absolutely awful, or both your mid and top laner won really really hard and FF didn't do shit. Your risk of getting countered is significantly lower when you can do it so quickly. People always mention how Vayne/BotRK kills baron really fast - the reality is, BotRK only does an extra 60 damage at most against baron, and Vayne can only do a maximum of 200 true damage per 3 hits. FF does WAY more damage than that.
Your whole argument is a straw-man fallacy.
Sure, Feral Flare does Baron fast... but in any scenario where you effectively take baron solo because of feral flare you didn't win because of feral flare. Either you have complete vision dominance, or you complete solo lane dominance, or you have opponents that are too bad to contest either because they dont notice it on their minimap or they just decided it is more important to kill wolves or something.
Eitherway, being able to solo baron isn't exactly OP. Nunu could do it for ages, Yi could do it for ages (still can without FF, i believe), as could WW (before they decided they needed to buff his jungle speed), and Shaco before they nerfed his jitb for other reasons.
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None of the junglers you named can solo it at 15 minutes without FF.
The issue with the solo baron is it puts too much of the demand on the enemy team. Any bronze 5 player can do the 15 minute solo baron because it's a PvE thing, they just have to practice it in customs a couple times. Asking players of an equivalent skill level to keep sight on baron at 15 minutes and stop it is absurd.
I'm not sure how you could possibly come to the conclusion that soloing baron at 15 minutes isn't broken. It's obviously not the intended use for the item.
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On April 21 2014 09:41 VayneAuthority wrote:
competitively FF seems reasonable so its gonna turn into the teemo of items where they have to keep it down for lower level purposes and then it just becomes complete garbage eventually
Probably. But that just the "unranged adc" thing all over again.
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I want Clutz to stop misspelling melee. This would make me happy.
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On April 21 2014 09:40 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 08:31 Eppa! wrote:
I think flare is fine as is. Most even games with a flare vs nonflare junglers are that nonflare junglers gank and get a kill or 2 more and then the flare jungler gets a very stat efficient items. Most flare junglers scale badly because they rely on autos compared to say Eve, Lee and Elise who give more utility.
It is like picking Karma vs Leona and complaining that you were winning lane when Leona is better later with less gold. Except I buy Flare on Junglers with uitility and gank potential like Xin, LS, and Vi. I think the gold genration on Feral Flare is OP, but more than anything I think Feral Flare just is making junglers themselves be smarter. Lot of bad junglers used to just pick like Lee and never farm, but like now they realizing they can power farm, and still have a presence.Now I think junglers are doing a better job thinking out their ganks and are now "carrying hard" not cuz Feral Flare is OP but because they got rid of their 10 crappy ganks with no threat that also reduced the threat on the other team, while also farming an additional 2k worth of gold in the same time period.
Flare stops Xin from being a super early game char, Vis clear time and gank pressure is quite heavily reduced when going flare for a minor dps boost since she is not a very auto reliant champ. Xin is going to get picked less and less he falls of hard if he doesn't stay even and he has worse impact than Eve who is in a similar position.
Gold generation is crap compared spirit items especially in accelerated games.
Madreds+Sightstone used to be meta on Lee but fell of when dps and clear speed was given higher priority than mobility.
The really only problem I see with flare is Baron speed and thats because Baron is right now a high damage low health which makes for silly Nash dances. Also heal buff and exhaust buff makes ganking bot lane almost impossible. Doesn't mean its op. Remember when Nasus could solo dragon at 6? People started warding it and he faded.
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The stacks being changed to 30 instead of 25 will stop the 15 minute baron solos. All it really means is that people need a bit of time to adapt and start warding baron more actively.
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On April 21 2014 10:13 GolemMadness wrote:
The stacks being changed to 30 instead of 25 will stop the 15 minute baron solos. All it really means is that people need a bit of time to adapt and start warding baron more actively.
Will it?
Will 5% ASPD and 3 AD make it so you can't do baron at 15?
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On April 21 2014 10:08 Ketara wrote:
None of the junglers you named can solo it at 15 minutes without FF.
The issue with the solo baron is it puts too much of the demand on the enemy team. Any bronze 5 player can do the 15 minute solo baron because it's a PvE thing, they just have to practice it in customs a couple times. Asking players of an equivalent skill level to keep sight on baron at 15 minutes and stop it is absurd.
I'm not sure how you could possibly come to the conclusion that soloing baron at 15 minutes isn't broken. It's obviously not the intended use for the item.
I think Nunu can do it, when Smash was doing top Nunu he actually listed out the build order to solo baron @ 15 lol, didnt take many items either and this was long before flare was even thought of
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Anyone experimented with Feral Flare on Vi at all?
I've been toying with the idea and while it is nice to have AD and AS on her, the lack of mp heal for killing a big monster from spirit stone items is pretty bad.
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On April 21 2014 10:08 Ketara wrote:
None of the junglers you named can solo it at 15 minutes without FF.
The issue with the solo baron is it puts too much of the demand on the enemy team. Any bronze 5 player can do the 15 minute solo baron because it's a PvE thing, they just have to practice it in customs a couple times. Asking players of an equivalent skill level to keep sight on baron at 15 minutes and stop it is absurd.
I'm not sure how you could possibly come to the conclusion that soloing baron at 15 minutes isn't broken. It's obviously not the intended use for the item.
My point is, this has been possible in the past in a number of cases, and no one cared.
On April 21 2014 10:15 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 10:08 Ketara wrote:
None of the junglers you named can solo it at 15 minutes without FF.
The issue with the solo baron is it puts too much of the demand on the enemy team. Any bronze 5 player can do the 15 minute solo baron because it's a PvE thing, they just have to practice it in customs a couple times. Asking players of an equivalent skill level to keep sight on baron at 15 minutes and stop it is absurd.
I'm not sure how you could possibly come to the conclusion that soloing baron at 15 minutes isn't broken. It's obviously not the intended use for the item. I think Nunu can do it, when Smash was doing top Nunu he actually listed out the build order to solo baron @ 15 lol, didnt take many items either and this was long before flare was even thought of
Nunu was changed to nerf lane Nunu into the ground.
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On April 21 2014 10:13 GolemMadness wrote:
The stacks being changed to 30 instead of 25 will stop the 15 minute baron solos. All it really means is that people need a bit of time to adapt and start warding baron more actively.
The issue is that 30 stack transformation does not truly solve the problem. It merely sweeps the issue under a rag.
By increasing the number of stacks required, you make a lot of the lower clear speed junglers less viable with FF (WW comes to mind in particular). Then you can just ban out the other junglers like Yi and Shyvana who clear so fast that 5 more stacks do not impact them at all.
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On April 21 2014 10:18 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 10:08 Ketara wrote:
None of the junglers you named can solo it at 15 minutes without FF.
The issue with the solo baron is it puts too much of the demand on the enemy team. Any bronze 5 player can do the 15 minute solo baron because it's a PvE thing, they just have to practice it in customs a couple times. Asking players of an equivalent skill level to keep sight on baron at 15 minutes and stop it is absurd.
I'm not sure how you could possibly come to the conclusion that soloing baron at 15 minutes isn't broken. It's obviously not the intended use for the item. My point is, this has been possible in the past in a number of cases, and no one cared. Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 10:15 arb wrote:On April 21 2014 10:08 Ketara wrote:
None of the junglers you named can solo it at 15 minutes without FF.
The issue with the solo baron is it puts too much of the demand on the enemy team. Any bronze 5 player can do the 15 minute solo baron because it's a PvE thing, they just have to practice it in customs a couple times. Asking players of an equivalent skill level to keep sight on baron at 15 minutes and stop it is absurd.
I'm not sure how you could possibly come to the conclusion that soloing baron at 15 minutes isn't broken. It's obviously not the intended use for the item. I think Nunu can do it, when Smash was doing top Nunu he actually listed out the build order to solo baron @ 15 lol, didnt take many items either and this was long before flare was even thought of Nunu was changed to nerf lane Nunu into the ground.
Have any of these champions been able to solo baron at 15 minutes since season 2?
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On April 21 2014 10:21 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 10:18 iCanada wrote:On April 21 2014 10:08 Ketara wrote:
None of the junglers you named can solo it at 15 minutes without FF.
The issue with the solo baron is it puts too much of the demand on the enemy team. Any bronze 5 player can do the 15 minute solo baron because it's a PvE thing, they just have to practice it in customs a couple times. Asking players of an equivalent skill level to keep sight on baron at 15 minutes and stop it is absurd.
I'm not sure how you could possibly come to the conclusion that soloing baron at 15 minutes isn't broken. It's obviously not the intended use for the item. My point is, this has been possible in the past in a number of cases, and no one cared. On April 21 2014 10:15 arb wrote:On April 21 2014 10:08 Ketara wrote:
None of the junglers you named can solo it at 15 minutes without FF.
The issue with the solo baron is it puts too much of the demand on the enemy team. Any bronze 5 player can do the 15 minute solo baron because it's a PvE thing, they just have to practice it in customs a couple times. Asking players of an equivalent skill level to keep sight on baron at 15 minutes and stop it is absurd.
I'm not sure how you could possibly come to the conclusion that soloing baron at 15 minutes isn't broken. It's obviously not the intended use for the item. I think Nunu can do it, when Smash was doing top Nunu he actually listed out the build order to solo baron @ 15 lol, didnt take many items either and this was long before flare was even thought of Nunu was changed to nerf lane Nunu into the ground. Have any of these champions been able to solo baron at 15 minutes since season 2?
Lots of them could even last season. Its not well documented though, because like I said, it was never an issue.
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Yeah I think you're wrong.
I'm looking for evidence of junglers in season 3 soloing baron at 15 and the only video I can find is a Q max spectral wraith Nunu doing it during the patch where Nunu's Q was ridic and he was first pick/ban status. Nunu didn't max Q or get spectral wraith in serious games AND was nerfed immediately.
There's a couple videos of wriggles+botrk junglers doing it at like 20 minutes, that's it.
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On April 21 2014 10:17 Kinie wrote:
Anyone experimented with Feral Flare on Vi at all?
I've been toying with the idea and while it is nice to have AD and AS on her, the lack of mp heal for killing a big monster from spirit stone items is pretty bad.
pretty sure Lizard is like 10x better than flare on vi tbh. shes got a pretty mana hungry clear and the extra regen is pretty nice imo.
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On April 21 2014 10:17 Kinie wrote:
Anyone experimented with Feral Flare on Vi at all?
I've been toying with the idea and while it is nice to have AD and AS on her, the lack of mp heal for killing a big monster from spirit stone items is pretty bad.
Tried it 6-7 times and went "fuck this shit I want mana". Spamming Q is a bunch of what Vi does in fights, because she has no way of sticking to targets (Noc's Q and E, Xin's Q and E, Yi's Q and ult... Vi just locks them down with her ult but she doesn't attack meanwhile) and being unable to clear fast while staying toped off or close to it makes you worse in prolonged fights.
She still loses to most champions who like it (these I listed above) and if she could lose to a Lee (depending on itemisation for that one) with lizard she'd still lose with Flare.
She's too much about burst to rely on on-hit damage and heal (her W his about wrecking armour and applying little busts, that's why her E has an ammo system instead of just a low cd), and not being about to Q-auto-E every camp means she has to either get oom fast or kill the little monsters with autos, so her clear speed isn't improved that much.
Plus with SV nerf Riot basically said "fuck you bruisers no CDR itemisation for you" so Lizard's 10% is important.
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On April 21 2014 10:44 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 10:17 Kinie wrote:
Anyone experimented with Feral Flare on Vi at all?
I've been toying with the idea and while it is nice to have AD and AS on her, the lack of mp heal for killing a big monster from spirit stone items is pretty bad. Tried it 6-7 times and went "fuck this shit I want mana". Spamming Q is a bunch of what Vi does in fights, because she has no way of sticking to targets (Noc's Q and E, Xin's Q and E, Yi's Q and ult... Vi just locks them down with her ult but she doesn't attack meanwhile) and being unable to clear fast while staying toped off or close to it makes you worse in prolonged fights. She still loses to most champions who like it (these I listed above) and if she could lose to a Lee (depending on itemisation for that one) with lizard she'd still lose with Flare. She's too much about burst to rely on on-hit damage and heal (her W his about wrecking armour and applying little busts, that's why her E has an ammo system instead of just a low cd), and not being about to Q-auto-E every camp means she has to either get oom fast or kill the little monsters with autos, so her clear speed isn't improved that much. Plus with SV nerf Riot basically said "fuck you bruisers no CDR itemisation for you" so Lizard's 10% is important.
Have you tried building SS first, and then building wriggles after/later?
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Na, never mixed stuff. Feels like wanting too hard to farm, I tend to favour a smooth curve a lot (I start stone over short swords when first backing because of the mana sustain it provides, it makes much more for the clear speed which in turn lets me be where I need to be more easily when planning out routes or sniffing counterganks).
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EPT
