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United States47024 Posts
On April 21 2014 05:14 Ketara wrote:
Having multiple playstyles in the jungle isn't a problem. Having junglers who farm till 6 and only start ganking then isn't a problem.
It's not a problem if Riot just lets multiple styles work out.
The problem is that Riot has perennially seen a problem with poor farming junglers that gank very well to make up for it because their early game ganking is too strong while simultaneously seeing a problem with fast-farming AoE junglers farming too much faster. So they get to this weird place where they don't want single target junglers to gank so much better while also wanting a way for them to farm like their AoE counterparts.
The end result is a bunch of contrived "solutions" (Wight camp, jungle items, bonus XP farming jungle if below camp level) to address a nonexistent problem that instead creates problems on its own.
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On April 21 2014 07:12 Alaric wrote:
It's because they only have a single offensive item that is more dps-oriented than burst-oriented, which makes them susceptible to being bursted down, especially since boots+BotRK timing is usually close to level 7-9, which is when mages are strong (and close to their peak).
It has nothing to do with AS. Jax with Triforce+BotRK splitpushes because that makes him a frightening duelist and he's more likely to live long enough to use his sustain and the Spellblade's sustained damage if he only has to worry about one champion's worth of damage rather than 5. If he wants to teamfight, he'll build Randuin's second or something, for the tankiness, not to build non-AS stats.
Even if you build a tanky Jax, he doesn't get to use that many auto attacks during a teamfight, which happens to be why you don't see many tanky Jax's (even when he is behind and cant splitpush).
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On April 21 2014 07:40 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 05:14 Ketara wrote:
Having multiple playstyles in the jungle isn't a problem. Having junglers who farm till 6 and only start ganking then isn't a problem. It's not a problem if Riot just lets multiple styles work out. The problem is that Riot has perennially seen a problem with poor farming junglers that gank very well to make up for it because their early game ganking is too strong while simultaneously seeing a problem with fast-farming AoE junglers farming too much faster. So they get to this weird place where they don't want single target junglers to gank so much better while also wanting a way for them to farm like their AoE counterparts. The end result is a bunch of contrived "solutions" (Wight camp, jungle items, bonus XP farming jungle if below camp level) to address a nonexistent problem that instead creates problems on its own.
hang on gonna copy paste to reddit for karma and gold thx
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On April 21 2014 08:09 FinestHour wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 07:40 TheYango wrote:On April 21 2014 05:14 Ketara wrote:
Having multiple playstyles in the jungle isn't a problem. Having junglers who farm till 6 and only start ganking then isn't a problem. It's not a problem if Riot just lets multiple styles work out. The problem is that Riot has perennially seen a problem with poor farming junglers that gank very well to make up for it because their early game ganking is too strong while simultaneously seeing a problem with fast-farming AoE junglers farming too much faster. So they get to this weird place where they don't want single target junglers to gank so much better while also wanting a way for them to farm like their AoE counterparts. The end result is a bunch of contrived "solutions" (Wight camp, jungle items, bonus XP farming jungle if below camp level) to address a nonexistent problem that instead creates problems on its own. hang on gonna copy paste to reddit for karma and gold thx
Too many vocab words for reddit.
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You see "non-tanky Jax" (which means Triforce+BotRK before tank really) because he's one of the few champions who can afford to build so much offensive items and get away with it:
- strong defensive steroid scaling off offensive stats and making him want to itemise sustain and HP (Renekton prefers resistances, too bad HP is better by far because Xypherous thinks it should by such a margin) and counterstrike helping him further
- strong splitpushing allowing him to dodge/delay teamfighting until he gets to build more defensive items, along with a kit making him a strong duelist and tower-killer
Renekton, Shyvana, Trundle, Shen can get away with 2 offensive items in different situations (most of them involve these champions being massively ahead in the midgame so they can kill people before they get bursted themselves) but either it's too situational, or they can't splitpush as well to make use of it.
Jax uses a bunch of autos in a teamfight because even his W and ult need autos to deal damage. How would you expect him to deal damage when it's entirely autos, Q, E (maxed last and rarely used to actually dodge which would increase its damage) and maybe BotRK active?
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On April 21 2014 08:09 FinestHour wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 07:40 TheYango wrote:On April 21 2014 05:14 Ketara wrote:
Having multiple playstyles in the jungle isn't a problem. Having junglers who farm till 6 and only start ganking then isn't a problem. It's not a problem if Riot just lets multiple styles work out. The problem is that Riot has perennially seen a problem with poor farming junglers that gank very well to make up for it because their early game ganking is too strong while simultaneously seeing a problem with fast-farming AoE junglers farming too much faster. So they get to this weird place where they don't want single target junglers to gank so much better while also wanting a way for them to farm like their AoE counterparts. The end result is a bunch of contrived "solutions" (Wight camp, jungle items, bonus XP farming jungle if below camp level) to address a nonexistent problem that instead creates problems on its own. hang on gonna copy paste to reddit for karma and gold thx
u sure? the other post got -10 karma or something. That dude may get karma from his own post, and got -karma from yango post. Need more testing.
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I think flare is fine as is. Most even games with a flare vs nonflare junglers are that nonflare junglers gank and get a kill or 2 more and then the flare jungler gets a very stat efficient items. Most flare junglers scale badly because they rely on autos compared to say Eve, Lee and Elise who give more utility.
It is like picking Karma vs Leona and complaining that you were winning lane when Leona is better later with less gold.
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Wickd has been running AS Quints, AS marks, scaling armor seals, and scaling MR gylph on Irelia. Does anyone know what the logic behind that is? Irelia already gets shit on pretty hard pre-6, especially when running tp. Is he abandoning that phase of the game altogether for some strength later or is this a lane swap build?
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I hate playing Karma into Leona. It's no fun at all.
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Why? Play Karma. Acquire pentakill.
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On April 21 2014 08:17 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 08:09 FinestHour wrote:On April 21 2014 07:40 TheYango wrote:On April 21 2014 05:14 Ketara wrote:
Having multiple playstyles in the jungle isn't a problem. Having junglers who farm till 6 and only start ganking then isn't a problem. It's not a problem if Riot just lets multiple styles work out. The problem is that Riot has perennially seen a problem with poor farming junglers that gank very well to make up for it because their early game ganking is too strong while simultaneously seeing a problem with fast-farming AoE junglers farming too much faster. So they get to this weird place where they don't want single target junglers to gank so much better while also wanting a way for them to farm like their AoE counterparts. The end result is a bunch of contrived "solutions" (Wight camp, jungle items, bonus XP farming jungle if below camp level) to address a nonexistent problem that instead creates problems on its own. hang on gonna copy paste to reddit for karma and gold thx Too many vocab words for reddit.
It would be fun to make a bot that, every day or two, submits a random yango post to reddit with the a title like "my opinion."
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On April 21 2014 09:28 AsianEcksDragon wrote:Why? Play Karma. Acquire pentakill+ Show Spoiler +
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I don't mind feral flare too much really, the only complaint I have about it is that if I don't get it I feel like I have to accomplish a lot before level 6, and probably accomplish something before level 4, which means I don't feel good about lv4 ganking champs right now (ex/ Nautilus).
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On April 21 2014 08:31 Eppa! wrote:
I think flare is fine as is. Most even games with a flare vs nonflare junglers are that nonflare junglers gank and get a kill or 2 more and then the flare jungler gets a very stat efficient items. Most flare junglers scale badly because they rely on autos compared to say Eve, Lee and Elise who give more utility.
It is like picking Karma vs Leona and complaining that you were winning lane when Leona is better later with less gold.
That's actually an interesting point. I wonder what happens when a FF jungler is on one team and non-FF jungler is on the other. Which side is more likely to win?
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On April 21 2014 08:31 Eppa! wrote:
I think flare is fine as is. Most even games with a flare vs nonflare junglers are that nonflare junglers gank and get a kill or 2 more and then the flare jungler gets a very stat efficient items. Most flare junglers scale badly because they rely on autos compared to say Eve, Lee and Elise who give more utility.
It is like picking Karma vs Leona and complaining that you were winning lane when Leona is better later with less gold.
Except I buy Flare on Junglers with uitility and gank potential like Xin, LS, and Vi.
I think the gold genration on Feral Flare is OP, but more than anything I think Feral Flare just is making junglers themselves be smarter.
Lot of bad junglers used to just pick like Lee and never farm, but like now they realizing they can power farm, and still have a presence.Now I think junglers are doing a better job thinking out their ganks and are now "carrying hard" not cuz Feral Flare is OP but because they got rid of their 10 crappy ganks with no threat that also reduced the threat on the other team, while also farming an additional 2k worth of gold in the same time period.
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competitively FF seems reasonable so its gonna turn into the teemo of items where they have to keep it down for lower level purposes and then it just becomes complete garbage eventually
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On April 21 2014 09:40 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 08:31 Eppa! wrote:
I think flare is fine as is. Most even games with a flare vs nonflare junglers are that nonflare junglers gank and get a kill or 2 more and then the flare jungler gets a very stat efficient items. Most flare junglers scale badly because they rely on autos compared to say Eve, Lee and Elise who give more utility.
It is like picking Karma vs Leona and complaining that you were winning lane when Leona is better later with less gold. Except I buy Flare on Junglers with uitility and gank potential like Xin, LS, and Vi. I think the gold genration on Feral Flare is OP, but more than anything I think Feral Flare just is making junglers themselves be smarter. Lot of bad junglers used to just pick like Lee and never farm, but like now they realizing they can power farm, and still have a presence.Now I think junglers are doing a better job thinking out their ganks and are now "carrying hard" not cuz Feral Flare is OP but because they got rid of their 10 crappy ganks with no threat that also reduced the threat on the other team, while also farming an additional 2k worth of gold in the same time period.
The gold generation is fine. It's the stacking bonus magic damage per hit on monsters that is not fine. The fact that you can almost solo a baron with just FF + BotRK is definitely not fine. You snowball the game too hard just by yourself because you have way too much objective control as the jungler.
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On April 21 2014 09:45 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 09:40 iCanada wrote:On April 21 2014 08:31 Eppa! wrote:
I think flare is fine as is. Most even games with a flare vs nonflare junglers are that nonflare junglers gank and get a kill or 2 more and then the flare jungler gets a very stat efficient items. Most flare junglers scale badly because they rely on autos compared to say Eve, Lee and Elise who give more utility.
It is like picking Karma vs Leona and complaining that you were winning lane when Leona is better later with less gold. Except I buy Flare on Junglers with uitility and gank potential like Xin, LS, and Vi. I think the gold genration on Feral Flare is OP, but more than anything I think Feral Flare just is making junglers themselves be smarter. Lot of bad junglers used to just pick like Lee and never farm, but like now they realizing they can power farm, and still have a presence.Now I think junglers are doing a better job thinking out their ganks and are now "carrying hard" not cuz Feral Flare is OP but because they got rid of their 10 crappy ganks with no threat that also reduced the threat on the other team, while also farming an additional 2k worth of gold in the same time period. The gold generation is fine. It's the stacking bonus magic damage per hit on monsters that is not fine. The fact that you can almost solo a baron with just FF + BotRK is definitely not fine. You snowball the game too hard just by yourself because you have way too much objective control as the jungler.
But what the hell is the gamestate that you can just walk up to baron and take it anyway? Either your opponent is absolutely awful, or both your mid and top laner won really really hard and FF didn't do shit.
Lots of junglers can solo dragon when it spawns, yet it practically never happens in game because people know that to let that happen you have to be awful. Are you telling me that Fiddlesticks is OP?
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On April 21 2014 09:46 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 09:45 Sufficiency wrote:On April 21 2014 09:40 iCanada wrote:On April 21 2014 08:31 Eppa! wrote:
I think flare is fine as is. Most even games with a flare vs nonflare junglers are that nonflare junglers gank and get a kill or 2 more and then the flare jungler gets a very stat efficient items. Most flare junglers scale badly because they rely on autos compared to say Eve, Lee and Elise who give more utility.
It is like picking Karma vs Leona and complaining that you were winning lane when Leona is better later with less gold. Except I buy Flare on Junglers with uitility and gank potential like Xin, LS, and Vi. I think the gold genration on Feral Flare is OP, but more than anything I think Feral Flare just is making junglers themselves be smarter. Lot of bad junglers used to just pick like Lee and never farm, but like now they realizing they can power farm, and still have a presence.Now I think junglers are doing a better job thinking out their ganks and are now "carrying hard" not cuz Feral Flare is OP but because they got rid of their 10 crappy ganks with no threat that also reduced the threat on the other team, while also farming an additional 2k worth of gold in the same time period. The gold generation is fine. It's the stacking bonus magic damage per hit on monsters that is not fine. The fact that you can almost solo a baron with just FF + BotRK is definitely not fine. You snowball the game too hard just by yourself because you have way too much objective control as the jungler. But what the hell is the gamestate that you can just walk up to baron and take it anyway? Either your opponent is absolutely awful, or both your mid and top laner won really really hard and FF didn't do shit.
Your risk of getting countered is significantly lower when you can do it so quickly.
People always mention how Vayne/BotRK kills baron really fast - the reality is, BotRK only does an extra 60 damage at most against baron, and Vayne can only do a maximum of 200 true damage per 3 hits. FF does WAY more damage than that.
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Man. I can't wait to see LMQ smashing XDG next Sunday. NA LCS needs better teams and I will welcome the Chinese overlords with open arms.
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EPT
