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On March 25 2014 07:50 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 07:44 ticklishmusic wrote:
I've been trying out jungle Mao as a counterpick to Kha6. It kinda works, though I think part of it is people not knowing how to play against him.
You clear pretty fast if you grab AP runes, and your countergank and counterinitiate are pretty brutal. Unfortunately, you're still Maokai.
I'm a terrible jungler for not learning the bug, but oh well. I feel like the only reason Maokai isnt viable is because assassin jungles are really the strongest atm, utility/support jungles arent in favor, especially since you have all tanks coming out of toplane, not enough room for another one on your team
IMO the real problem (and I didn't invent this thought, I think Yango was the first person to point it out, and I've been realizing it more and more ever since), is that the same champions that clear fast also do the most damage in ganks. Basically, the problem in the jungle is that Riot made it single target, while single target damage is also the best in ganks.
Its like if you gave Caitlyn Vayne's W as her passive.
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On March 25 2014 07:50 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 07:44 ticklishmusic wrote:
I've been trying out jungle Mao as a counterpick to Kha6. It kinda works, though I think part of it is people not knowing how to play against him.
You clear pretty fast if you grab AP runes, and your countergank and counterinitiate are pretty brutal. Unfortunately, you're still Maokai.
I'm a terrible jungler for not learning the bug, but oh well. I feel like the only reason Maokai isnt viable is because assassin jungles are really the strongest atm, utility/support jungles arent in favor, especially since you have all tanks coming out of toplane, not enough room for another one on your team
On the flip side, I think he fills a niche in a meta that favors a number of supports who initiate rather than peel (Thresh, Annie, Leona, etc.). He has really good CC and damage mitigation, you sit on your carries so W travel time will be low when you see an assassin, then throw up R to prevent follow up. In that sense, he is similar to Trundle because the strength of his ult effectively scales with the enemy (IDK, I just think that's a cool interaction)
On March 25 2014 08:01 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 07:50 arb wrote:On March 25 2014 07:44 ticklishmusic wrote:
I've been trying out jungle Mao as a counterpick to Kha6. It kinda works, though I think part of it is people not knowing how to play against him.
You clear pretty fast if you grab AP runes, and your countergank and counterinitiate are pretty brutal. Unfortunately, you're still Maokai.
I'm a terrible jungler for not learning the bug, but oh well. I feel like the only reason Maokai isnt viable is because assassin jungles are really the strongest atm, utility/support jungles arent in favor, especially since you have all tanks coming out of toplane, not enough room for another one on your team IMO the real problem (and I didn't invent this thought, I think Yango was the first person to point it out, and I've been realizing it more and more ever since), is that the same champions that clear fast also do the most damage in ganks. Basically, the problem in the jungle is that Riot made it single target, while single target damage is also the best in ganks. Its like if you gave Caitlyn Vayne's W as her passive.
Yeah, you/Yango have a good point, But taking AP runes makes saplings and your Q clear pretty fast. You're super squish and are very vulnerable 1/2, but once you have QWE you can duel okay. Plus, if you have vision of jungle camps you can W as an escape which is super fun.
A little movespeed would help the tree out a lot as well, it would let him countergank and stuff much easier. Your ganks are all/none because you need all 3 spells together to effectively do damage (same 1-3 weakness), but that's alright with me.
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On March 25 2014 07:44 ticklishmusic wrote:
I've been trying out jungle Mao as a counterpick to Kha6. It kinda works, though I think part of it is people not knowing how to play against him.
You clear pretty fast if you grab AP runes, and your countergank and counterinitiate are pretty brutal. Unfortunately, you're still Maokai.
I'm a terrible jungler for not learning the bug, but oh well.
I like your style.
+ Show Spoiler [Believe] +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/femkNs8.png) Edit: On a serious note I have found the vs Kha m/u to be quite nice. Your early ganks > his in my opinion.
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On March 25 2014 08:04 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 07:50 arb wrote:On March 25 2014 07:44 ticklishmusic wrote:
I've been trying out jungle Mao as a counterpick to Kha6. It kinda works, though I think part of it is people not knowing how to play against him.
You clear pretty fast if you grab AP runes, and your countergank and counterinitiate are pretty brutal. Unfortunately, you're still Maokai.
I'm a terrible jungler for not learning the bug, but oh well. I feel like the only reason Maokai isnt viable is because assassin jungles are really the strongest atm, utility/support jungles arent in favor, especially since you have all tanks coming out of toplane, not enough room for another one on your team On the flip side, I think he fills a niche in a meta that favors a number of supports who peel rather than initiate (Thresh, Annie, Leona, etc.). He has really good CC and damage mitigation, you sit on your carries so Q travel time will be low when you see an assassin, then throw up R to prevent follow up.
Annie and Leona supports that peel rather than initiate....Yeah....No. Just no.
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On March 25 2014 08:10 Prog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 08:04 ticklishmusic wrote:On March 25 2014 07:50 arb wrote:On March 25 2014 07:44 ticklishmusic wrote:
I've been trying out jungle Mao as a counterpick to Kha6. It kinda works, though I think part of it is people not knowing how to play against him.
You clear pretty fast if you grab AP runes, and your countergank and counterinitiate are pretty brutal. Unfortunately, you're still Maokai.
I'm a terrible jungler for not learning the bug, but oh well. I feel like the only reason Maokai isnt viable is because assassin jungles are really the strongest atm, utility/support jungles arent in favor, especially since you have all tanks coming out of toplane, not enough room for another one on your team On the flip side, I think he fills a niche in a meta that favors a number of supports who peel rather than initiate (Thresh, Annie, Leona, etc.). He has really good CC and damage mitigation, you sit on your carries so Q travel time will be low when you see an assassin, then throw up R to prevent follow up. Annie and Leona supports that peel rather than initiate....Yeah....No. Just no.
Obvious brain fart should be obvious zzz
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On March 25 2014 08:07 Nos- wrote:
ghalo fucking pls
1. I'm not Gandhi
2. This is what I get for multiple TL tabs.
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People who pick Teemo against Jax should get cursed over 7 generations. There's nothing to qualify such a heinous act. :<
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On March 25 2014 08:10 Prog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 08:04 ticklishmusic wrote:On March 25 2014 07:50 arb wrote:On March 25 2014 07:44 ticklishmusic wrote:
I've been trying out jungle Mao as a counterpick to Kha6. It kinda works, though I think part of it is people not knowing how to play against him.
You clear pretty fast if you grab AP runes, and your countergank and counterinitiate are pretty brutal. Unfortunately, you're still Maokai.
I'm a terrible jungler for not learning the bug, but oh well. I feel like the only reason Maokai isnt viable is because assassin jungles are really the strongest atm, utility/support jungles arent in favor, especially since you have all tanks coming out of toplane, not enough room for another one on your team On the flip side, I think he fills a niche in a meta that favors a number of supports who peel rather than initiate (Thresh, Annie, Leona, etc.). He has really good CC and damage mitigation, you sit on your carries so Q travel time will be low when you see an assassin, then throw up R to prevent follow up. Annie and Leona supports that peel rather than initiate....Yeah....No. Just no.
Both champions can do both things?
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On March 25 2014 08:44 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 08:10 Prog wrote:On March 25 2014 08:04 ticklishmusic wrote:On March 25 2014 07:50 arb wrote:On March 25 2014 07:44 ticklishmusic wrote:
I've been trying out jungle Mao as a counterpick to Kha6. It kinda works, though I think part of it is people not knowing how to play against him.
You clear pretty fast if you grab AP runes, and your countergank and counterinitiate are pretty brutal. Unfortunately, you're still Maokai.
I'm a terrible jungler for not learning the bug, but oh well. I feel like the only reason Maokai isnt viable is because assassin jungles are really the strongest atm, utility/support jungles arent in favor, especially since you have all tanks coming out of toplane, not enough room for another one on your team On the flip side, I think he fills a niche in a meta that favors a number of supports who peel rather than initiate (Thresh, Annie, Leona, etc.). He has really good CC and damage mitigation, you sit on your carries so Q travel time will be low when you see an assassin, then throw up R to prevent follow up. Annie and Leona supports that peel rather than initiate....Yeah....No. Just no. Both champions can do both things?
Notice the little words "rather than".
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On March 25 2014 06:22 Eppa! wrote:
Who thought that giving R evolve 200% more stealth time time was smart thing? I enjoyed Q-E evolve because it made him an assassin that fell of, new one does not fall of at all.
This patch ruined Kha and he is now a free elo train that is not fun to play.
Soon they are going to give Kat a ranged aa so she has the same power curve as other mid laners also no more resets on E/R.
I think we'll see his evolved R nerfed slightly so when he stealths it'll be for 1.5s instead of the 2s he currently gets.
On March 25 2014 07:22 GrandInquisitor wrote:
To follow up on Cheep's disdain for pro players, I never understood why no one picked Kayle during the Zed heyday, and then a couple months ago, well after Zed fell out of favor, she was suddenly deemed unbelievably OP (even though she had never been buffed). Late in S3, announcers were practically begging teams to pick Kayle, but team after team passed on her in favor of someone else.
In other words, I think it's really difficult to draw meaningful conclusions from pro play to determine what you should do in solo queue. You see all sorts of bad/allegedly "situational" builds and champion picks determined more by personal comfort level than overall team synergy.
I think part of the reason why we didn't see Kayle throughout season 3 was because she took too long to build up and had no 'blink' escape like Fizz's leap (which is still bullshit) or Zed's shadow blink, even if her ult basically said "fuck off Zed/Fizz."
Generally speaking pro players are some of the first to identify and spotlight OP champions because they spend more hours than most people finding, learning, and fine tuning the next OP/fotm champ before using it in a pro game. Sometimes though various regions (Korea mainly) are slow to adapt or pick up on champs that are good/better in other regions (ie., Morgana and Jinx.)
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Actually I think the exact opposite.Most pros are insanely slow to adapt.Just look at picks like sivir who dominate ogn yet it takes ages until na/eu even consider picking her.Most pros just play fotms and if they see something strong in solo they try it out.A lot of them have even said it.
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On March 25 2014 09:17 nafta wrote:
Actually I think the exact opposite.Most pros are insanely slow to adapt.Just look at picks like sivir who dominate ogn yet it takes ages until na/eu even consider picking her.Most pros just play fotms and if they see something strong in solo they try it out.A lot of them have even said it.
Well, I think there are actually a few factors, popularity is just a symptom.
Take Syndra and Fizz, for example. These two champions were always known to be fairly strong (I won't say "OP", but they certainly have their perks), but the professional scene was fairly late in adapting to them. I think the reason is that they are fairly difficult to play.
Say, for argument's sake, it takes a professional player 50 hours of concentrated practice to play Syndra at an acceptable level. Then why would you even try to spend that much time playing Syndra if the other team is just going to ban her? Spending 50 hours just to draw a ban is not wise.
In order for a champion to get played often, it has to not only have its "perks" to justify its pick in a competitive game, but also sufficiently easy to play that many players can master it reasonably easily. Otherwise, you will be just spending time on a target ban, which is not worth it. Such champions will almost certainly be popular due to its somewhat low difficulty and relatively high power.
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If a champion is too hard for the pro players then why the fuck are they even pros?The 2 examples you used are 2 champs that aren't very versatile and don't really offer something that other mids can't do better.
Also forcing bans is a rather big deal actually......
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champions that have less room for error will always be favored, professional play is no exception.
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On March 25 2014 09:34 nafta wrote:
If a champion is too hard for the pro players then why the fuck are they even pros?The 2 examples you used are 2 champs that aren't very versatile and don't really offer something that other mids can't do better.
Also forcing bans is a rather big deal actually......
It's more an issue of "Is it worth my time to learn this champion thoroughly as opposed to an easier champion + keep up on several others."
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It is more of the fact that players don't consider the champ strong enough to pick.Just look at players like alex/bjerg who picked lulu when they clearly had played her only a few games and did a lot of mechanical errors in laning but they simply recognized her power.Or how voyboy keeps picking syndra in lcs and he can't even land a fucking stun.
The reason champs don't get picked is they require a specific team around them/are snowball dependant or the players consider them weak.There is no champ that doesn't get picked because "omg I can't land his skill shot".
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Baa?21244 Posts
On March 25 2014 07:24 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 07:22 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On March 25 2014 07:20 Sufficiency wrote:
My name is Sufficiency. I like posting. Yeah, this is all you can do anyway. Not 100% why you are even here, because: 1. You don't really translate anything for us. 2. You only spit poison on this forum. Tons of people here can translate Chinese into English and frankly I don't think we need you.
Interesting, isn't it?
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this forum would be insufficient without him
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EPT
