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On March 22 2014 15:02 killerdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 14:50 dae wrote:On March 22 2014 12:01 Sufficiency wrote:OK guys, I got a set of results from Eiii's data. + Show Spoiler +I am currently examining Ashe, and how her win rate is affected by other champions. The TL;DR version is that Ashe loses a lot to Leona and LeBlanc, while wins a lot against Kassadin (!!!) Actual results below, as well as how to read the table. + Show Spoiler +
Champion OR p-value
Aatrox 0.9884 0.7168
Ahri 0.993 0.8229
Akali 0.9929 0.7879
Alistar 0.9969 0.9221
Amumu 0.9831 0.5368
Anivia 1.0369 0.4933
Annie 1.0497 0.0123
Ashe NA NA
Blitzcrank 0.9829 0.388
Brand 1.0141 0.7168
Caitlyn 1.011 0.4994
Cassiopeia 0.9607 0.3789
Chogath 0.9912 0.7796
Corki 0.9532 0.2995
Darius 0.9745 0.2935
Diana 1.0153 0.6495
Draven 0.9909 0.7243
DrMundo 1.0048 0.8532
Elise 1.0184 0.4778
Evelynn 0.9905 0.8037
Ezreal 0.9642 0.047
FiddleSticks1.0347 0.1784
Fiora 1.0047 0.8925
Fizz 0.982 0.5322
Galio 0.9818 0.7969
Gangplank 1.0462 0.2337
Garen 0.9584 0.0882
Gragas 1.0206 0.3901
Graves 1.0144 0.599
Hecarim 1.035 0.3491
Heimerdinger0.9441 0.0959
Irelia 1.028 0.4571
Janna 1.06 0.0698
JarvanIV 0.9565 0.1665
Jax 0.9892 0.5939
Jayce 0.9973 0.946
Jinx 1.0327 0.0487
Karma 1.0089 0.8279
Karthus 0.887 0.0221
Kassadin 1.1454 0.0003 *
Katarina 1.0094 0.6909
Kayle 1.0126 0.6325
Kennen 0.9409 0.2017
Khazix 1.0139 0.4946
KogMaw 0.9734 0.5817
Leblanc 0.9289 0.0017 *
LeeSin 1.0105 0.5328
Leona 0.9285 0.0001 *
Lissandra 1.0371 0.4683
Lucian 0.9917 0.6574
Lulu 1.0285 0.2684
Lux 0.9905 0.6698
Malphite 1.0127 0.6851
Malzahar 1.0219 0.6024
Maokai 0.9912 0.8743
MasterYi 0.9761 0.2511
MissFortune 1.0041 0.8943
MonkeyKing 0.9691 0.1121
Mordekaiser 0.9399 0.1765
Morgana 1.0018 0.9456
Nami 1.0373 0.2386
Nasus 1.011 0.601
Nautilus 1.0395 0.3376
Nidalee 1.024 0.242
Nocturne 0.9937 0.8611
Nunu 0.9918 0.8425
Olaf 0.9456 0.0913
Orianna 1.0025 0.9449
Pantheon 0.9729 0.2153
Poppy 0.9631 0.4361
Quinn 0.9652 0.2333
Rammus 0.9451 0.2034
Renekton 1.0443 0.04
Rengar 0.9999 0.9974
Riven 0.9719 0.2058
Rumble 1.1326 0.0257
Ryze 1.0486 0.2358
Sejuani 0.991 0.8451
Shaco 1.0615 0.0368
Shen 1.009 0.7936
Shyvana 0.9643 0.144
Singed 1.0267 0.4985
Sion 1.0183 0.7201
Sivir 0.9993 0.9706
Skarner 1.0761 0.1812
Sona 0.9858 0.5919
Soraka 0.9841 0.5159
Swain 1.0779 0.1165
Syndra 1.0587 0.1545
Talon 1.0285 0.4563
Taric 1.0276 0.3996
Teemo 0.9822 0.3312
Thresh 1.0114 0.4789
Tristana 0.9899 0.6999
Trundle 0.9974 0.9346
Tryndamere 0.9912 0.7288
TwistedFate 1.0459 0.2174
Twitch 0.9957 0.9019
Udyr 0.9733 0.3257
Urgot 1.0139 0.8283
Varus 1.0269 0.2776
Vayne 0.9986 0.9358
Veigar 0.9495 0.1219
Velkoz 1.0489 0.1357
Vi 0.9979 0.9172
Viktor 0.937 0.2604
Vladimir 1.0325 0.31
Volibear 0.9852 0.5902
Warwick 0.9984 0.9501
Xerath 1.0364 0.2188
XinZhao 1.0051 0.8571
Yasuo 1.0332 0.0905
Yorick 0.9678 0.574
Zac 1.0675 0.1445
Zed 0.9925 0.7139
Ziggs 1.0181 0.4479
Zilean 0.9564 0.384
Zyra 0.9817 0.5905
Take Leona's line, for example:
Champion OR p-value
Leona 0.9285 0.0001 *
The OR is the effect of having Ashe on one side and Leona on the other side, AFTER ADJUSTING FOR OVERALL WIN RATE FOR ASHE AND LEONA. In this case, we are seeing that when Ashe is on one side and Leona is on the other, Ashe wins 92.85% as often (7% less often), after adjusting for overall power of Ashe and Leona. The p-value is for statistical significance. If you know what p-values are you should know what this means. I made the cut-off to be p < 0.01 to control FDR. I have marked the ones with p < 0.01 with an *. What is this adjustment business? Recall, for example, Amumu has close to 55% win rate overall. Therefore, if you stick Ashe against Amumu, you will expect Ashe to lose a lot more often simply because "Amumu is OP", not because Amumu is strong against Ashe specifically. The adjustments are made to minimize this effect; in this case, I am saying after factoring in the power levels of Ashe and Leona individually, Ashe still loses 7% more often when Leona is on the other side - this suggests Leona counters Ashe quite hard. Out of curiosity, could you do this for Veigar? I know that gragas/zed are considered the hardest counters vs him, and hes considered to counter Ahri, but it would be interesting to see what the data says. Why does specifically gragas counter him?
Mostly the lane, gragas can just push/bully you/kill you under tower really easily, his ult basically kills you if you dont have flash, and hes too tanky/has too much sustain to poke down then burst.
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On March 22 2014 15:08 VayneAuthority wrote:
his damage reduction greatly upsets people that are meant to delete you in one go. His ult can make you blow flash whenever he wants pretty much with your unreliable method of escape from ganks. lets face it gragas is just a "counter" to a lot right now
Gragas has also been relevant in the pro scene longer than any other champion in the game (that I can think of). He fell off a little bit during season 2 around Worlds iirc 'cause Anivia and Oriana were so strong then, but honestly he's been extremely relevant since Season 1.
Like, I think the direction Riot's taking with their Gragas rework is kinda dumb and the justifications for some of the changes are stupid (ult people into Q is like..pure luck, maybe 10% skill) but given Riot's track record and Gragas's record a nerf/rework is not unexpected at all.
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While I know live balance and champion production are two separate team, I think I much preferred it when Riot was busy releasing a champion every couple of weeks.
They were so preoccupied with that schedule it gave them less time to think about how they could mess around with other champions via 'reworks'.
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On March 22 2014 15:11 zulu_nation8 wrote:
is robertxlee not on coL anymore?
Still on coL... sub for EG this weekend dno if still sub for XDG
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I wonder what would happen in a world where, once every two weeks, every champions whose pick rate (or win rate) surpassed ~30% (or 53%) would automatically got a small nerf (.1 ratio or small cd changes or something) and the opposite for if it fell below 2% pickrate/47% winrate.
Just have a group of people who would choose which part of the kit to nerf/buff so it wasn't totally useless buffs.
obviously it would be a bit impractical, and some champs would get a bit wrecked, and pro play might get wonky, but it would definitely be interesting.
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On March 22 2014 15:52 killerdog wrote:
I wonder what would happen in a world where, once every two weeks, every champions whose pick rate (or win rate) surpassed ~30% (or 53%) would automatically got a small nerf (.1 ratio or small cd changes or something) and the opposite for if it fell below 2% pickrate/47% winrate.
Just have a group of people who would choose which part of the kit to nerf/buff so it wasn't totally useless buffs.
obviously it would be a bit impractical, and some champs would get a bit wrecked, and pro play might get wonky, but it would definitely be interesting.
Rengar, Karma, and Syndra still have low pick rates. I don't think Riot should buff them.
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Bearded Elder29904 Posts
How about new Lantern/Madreds? Yey or ney?
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On March 22 2014 16:47 739 wrote:
How about new Lantern/Madreds? Yey or ney?
nay
once feral flare is released, maybe. but i doubt it. Elder lizard is too good.
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On March 22 2014 15:02 killerdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 14:50 dae wrote:On March 22 2014 12:01 Sufficiency wrote:OK guys, I got a set of results from Eiii's data. + Show Spoiler +I am currently examining Ashe, and how her win rate is affected by other champions. The TL;DR version is that Ashe loses a lot to Leona and LeBlanc, while wins a lot against Kassadin (!!!) Actual results below, as well as how to read the table. + Show Spoiler +
Champion OR p-value
Aatrox 0.9884 0.7168
Ahri 0.993 0.8229
Akali 0.9929 0.7879
Alistar 0.9969 0.9221
Amumu 0.9831 0.5368
Anivia 1.0369 0.4933
Annie 1.0497 0.0123
Ashe NA NA
Blitzcrank 0.9829 0.388
Brand 1.0141 0.7168
Caitlyn 1.011 0.4994
Cassiopeia 0.9607 0.3789
Chogath 0.9912 0.7796
Corki 0.9532 0.2995
Darius 0.9745 0.2935
Diana 1.0153 0.6495
Draven 0.9909 0.7243
DrMundo 1.0048 0.8532
Elise 1.0184 0.4778
Evelynn 0.9905 0.8037
Ezreal 0.9642 0.047
FiddleSticks1.0347 0.1784
Fiora 1.0047 0.8925
Fizz 0.982 0.5322
Galio 0.9818 0.7969
Gangplank 1.0462 0.2337
Garen 0.9584 0.0882
Gragas 1.0206 0.3901
Graves 1.0144 0.599
Hecarim 1.035 0.3491
Heimerdinger0.9441 0.0959
Irelia 1.028 0.4571
Janna 1.06 0.0698
JarvanIV 0.9565 0.1665
Jax 0.9892 0.5939
Jayce 0.9973 0.946
Jinx 1.0327 0.0487
Karma 1.0089 0.8279
Karthus 0.887 0.0221
Kassadin 1.1454 0.0003 *
Katarina 1.0094 0.6909
Kayle 1.0126 0.6325
Kennen 0.9409 0.2017
Khazix 1.0139 0.4946
KogMaw 0.9734 0.5817
Leblanc 0.9289 0.0017 *
LeeSin 1.0105 0.5328
Leona 0.9285 0.0001 *
Lissandra 1.0371 0.4683
Lucian 0.9917 0.6574
Lulu 1.0285 0.2684
Lux 0.9905 0.6698
Malphite 1.0127 0.6851
Malzahar 1.0219 0.6024
Maokai 0.9912 0.8743
MasterYi 0.9761 0.2511
MissFortune 1.0041 0.8943
MonkeyKing 0.9691 0.1121
Mordekaiser 0.9399 0.1765
Morgana 1.0018 0.9456
Nami 1.0373 0.2386
Nasus 1.011 0.601
Nautilus 1.0395 0.3376
Nidalee 1.024 0.242
Nocturne 0.9937 0.8611
Nunu 0.9918 0.8425
Olaf 0.9456 0.0913
Orianna 1.0025 0.9449
Pantheon 0.9729 0.2153
Poppy 0.9631 0.4361
Quinn 0.9652 0.2333
Rammus 0.9451 0.2034
Renekton 1.0443 0.04
Rengar 0.9999 0.9974
Riven 0.9719 0.2058
Rumble 1.1326 0.0257
Ryze 1.0486 0.2358
Sejuani 0.991 0.8451
Shaco 1.0615 0.0368
Shen 1.009 0.7936
Shyvana 0.9643 0.144
Singed 1.0267 0.4985
Sion 1.0183 0.7201
Sivir 0.9993 0.9706
Skarner 1.0761 0.1812
Sona 0.9858 0.5919
Soraka 0.9841 0.5159
Swain 1.0779 0.1165
Syndra 1.0587 0.1545
Talon 1.0285 0.4563
Taric 1.0276 0.3996
Teemo 0.9822 0.3312
Thresh 1.0114 0.4789
Tristana 0.9899 0.6999
Trundle 0.9974 0.9346
Tryndamere 0.9912 0.7288
TwistedFate 1.0459 0.2174
Twitch 0.9957 0.9019
Udyr 0.9733 0.3257
Urgot 1.0139 0.8283
Varus 1.0269 0.2776
Vayne 0.9986 0.9358
Veigar 0.9495 0.1219
Velkoz 1.0489 0.1357
Vi 0.9979 0.9172
Viktor 0.937 0.2604
Vladimir 1.0325 0.31
Volibear 0.9852 0.5902
Warwick 0.9984 0.9501
Xerath 1.0364 0.2188
XinZhao 1.0051 0.8571
Yasuo 1.0332 0.0905
Yorick 0.9678 0.574
Zac 1.0675 0.1445
Zed 0.9925 0.7139
Ziggs 1.0181 0.4479
Zilean 0.9564 0.384
Zyra 0.9817 0.5905
Take Leona's line, for example:
Champion OR p-value
Leona 0.9285 0.0001 *
The OR is the effect of having Ashe on one side and Leona on the other side, AFTER ADJUSTING FOR OVERALL WIN RATE FOR ASHE AND LEONA. In this case, we are seeing that when Ashe is on one side and Leona is on the other, Ashe wins 92.85% as often (7% less often), after adjusting for overall power of Ashe and Leona. The p-value is for statistical significance. If you know what p-values are you should know what this means. I made the cut-off to be p < 0.01 to control FDR. I have marked the ones with p < 0.01 with an *. What is this adjustment business? Recall, for example, Amumu has close to 55% win rate overall. Therefore, if you stick Ashe against Amumu, you will expect Ashe to lose a lot more often simply because "Amumu is OP", not because Amumu is strong against Ashe specifically. The adjustments are made to minimize this effect; in this case, I am saying after factoring in the power levels of Ashe and Leona individually, Ashe still loses 7% more often when Leona is on the other side - this suggests Leona counters Ashe quite hard. Out of curiosity, could you do this for Veigar? I know that gragas/zed are considered the hardest counters vs him, and hes considered to counter Ahri, but it would be interesting to see what the data says. Why does specifically gragas counter him?
One combo kills him from further range
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On March 22 2014 15:21 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 15:08 VayneAuthority wrote:
his damage reduction greatly upsets people that are meant to delete you in one go. His ult can make you blow flash whenever he wants pretty much with your unreliable method of escape from ganks. lets face it gragas is just a "counter" to a lot right now Gragas has also been relevant in the pro scene longer than any other champion in the game (that I can think of). He fell off a little bit during season 2 around Worlds iirc 'cause Anivia and Oriana were so strong then, but honestly he's been extremely relevant since Season 1. Like, I think the direction Riot's taking with their Gragas rework is kinda dumb and the justifications for some of the changes are stupid (ult people into Q is like..pure luck, maybe 10% skill) but given Riot's track record and Gragas's record a nerf/rework is not unexpected at all.
Caitlyn, Vayne and Lee Sin 
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At least they're doing something I suppose. Gragas can't really hang around the way he currently is. But then again, after Xerath was slaughtered (identity wise, still salty, jimmies still rustled), I'm worried whenever Riot says rework.
The overall direction seems for Gragas seems... sound imo.
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Naniwa with the mad respect for Faker and for League's skill cap in his interview with Thorin. Naniwa's been playing League lately too.
Neato.
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On March 22 2014 16:47 739 wrote:
How about new Lantern/Madreds? Yey or ney?
Until Feral Flare is out, consider them worse than before. After....we'll see.
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On March 22 2014 14:50 dae wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 12:01 Sufficiency wrote:OK guys, I got a set of results from Eiii's data. + Show Spoiler +I am currently examining Ashe, and how her win rate is affected by other champions. The TL;DR version is that Ashe loses a lot to Leona and LeBlanc, while wins a lot against Kassadin (!!!) Actual results below, as well as how to read the table. + Show Spoiler +
Champion OR p-value
Aatrox 0.9884 0.7168
Ahri 0.993 0.8229
Akali 0.9929 0.7879
Alistar 0.9969 0.9221
Amumu 0.9831 0.5368
Anivia 1.0369 0.4933
Annie 1.0497 0.0123
Ashe NA NA
Blitzcrank 0.9829 0.388
Brand 1.0141 0.7168
Caitlyn 1.011 0.4994
Cassiopeia 0.9607 0.3789
Chogath 0.9912 0.7796
Corki 0.9532 0.2995
Darius 0.9745 0.2935
Diana 1.0153 0.6495
Draven 0.9909 0.7243
DrMundo 1.0048 0.8532
Elise 1.0184 0.4778
Evelynn 0.9905 0.8037
Ezreal 0.9642 0.047
FiddleSticks1.0347 0.1784
Fiora 1.0047 0.8925
Fizz 0.982 0.5322
Galio 0.9818 0.7969
Gangplank 1.0462 0.2337
Garen 0.9584 0.0882
Gragas 1.0206 0.3901
Graves 1.0144 0.599
Hecarim 1.035 0.3491
Heimerdinger0.9441 0.0959
Irelia 1.028 0.4571
Janna 1.06 0.0698
JarvanIV 0.9565 0.1665
Jax 0.9892 0.5939
Jayce 0.9973 0.946
Jinx 1.0327 0.0487
Karma 1.0089 0.8279
Karthus 0.887 0.0221
Kassadin 1.1454 0.0003 *
Katarina 1.0094 0.6909
Kayle 1.0126 0.6325
Kennen 0.9409 0.2017
Khazix 1.0139 0.4946
KogMaw 0.9734 0.5817
Leblanc 0.9289 0.0017 *
LeeSin 1.0105 0.5328
Leona 0.9285 0.0001 *
Lissandra 1.0371 0.4683
Lucian 0.9917 0.6574
Lulu 1.0285 0.2684
Lux 0.9905 0.6698
Malphite 1.0127 0.6851
Malzahar 1.0219 0.6024
Maokai 0.9912 0.8743
MasterYi 0.9761 0.2511
MissFortune 1.0041 0.8943
MonkeyKing 0.9691 0.1121
Mordekaiser 0.9399 0.1765
Morgana 1.0018 0.9456
Nami 1.0373 0.2386
Nasus 1.011 0.601
Nautilus 1.0395 0.3376
Nidalee 1.024 0.242
Nocturne 0.9937 0.8611
Nunu 0.9918 0.8425
Olaf 0.9456 0.0913
Orianna 1.0025 0.9449
Pantheon 0.9729 0.2153
Poppy 0.9631 0.4361
Quinn 0.9652 0.2333
Rammus 0.9451 0.2034
Renekton 1.0443 0.04
Rengar 0.9999 0.9974
Riven 0.9719 0.2058
Rumble 1.1326 0.0257
Ryze 1.0486 0.2358
Sejuani 0.991 0.8451
Shaco 1.0615 0.0368
Shen 1.009 0.7936
Shyvana 0.9643 0.144
Singed 1.0267 0.4985
Sion 1.0183 0.7201
Sivir 0.9993 0.9706
Skarner 1.0761 0.1812
Sona 0.9858 0.5919
Soraka 0.9841 0.5159
Swain 1.0779 0.1165
Syndra 1.0587 0.1545
Talon 1.0285 0.4563
Taric 1.0276 0.3996
Teemo 0.9822 0.3312
Thresh 1.0114 0.4789
Tristana 0.9899 0.6999
Trundle 0.9974 0.9346
Tryndamere 0.9912 0.7288
TwistedFate 1.0459 0.2174
Twitch 0.9957 0.9019
Udyr 0.9733 0.3257
Urgot 1.0139 0.8283
Varus 1.0269 0.2776
Vayne 0.9986 0.9358
Veigar 0.9495 0.1219
Velkoz 1.0489 0.1357
Vi 0.9979 0.9172
Viktor 0.937 0.2604
Vladimir 1.0325 0.31
Volibear 0.9852 0.5902
Warwick 0.9984 0.9501
Xerath 1.0364 0.2188
XinZhao 1.0051 0.8571
Yasuo 1.0332 0.0905
Yorick 0.9678 0.574
Zac 1.0675 0.1445
Zed 0.9925 0.7139
Ziggs 1.0181 0.4479
Zilean 0.9564 0.384
Zyra 0.9817 0.5905
Take Leona's line, for example:
Champion OR p-value
Leona 0.9285 0.0001 *
The OR is the effect of having Ashe on one side and Leona on the other side, AFTER ADJUSTING FOR OVERALL WIN RATE FOR ASHE AND LEONA. In this case, we are seeing that when Ashe is on one side and Leona is on the other, Ashe wins 92.85% as often (7% less often), after adjusting for overall power of Ashe and Leona. The p-value is for statistical significance. If you know what p-values are you should know what this means. I made the cut-off to be p < 0.01 to control FDR. I have marked the ones with p < 0.01 with an *. What is this adjustment business? Recall, for example, Amumu has close to 55% win rate overall. Therefore, if you stick Ashe against Amumu, you will expect Ashe to lose a lot more often simply because "Amumu is OP", not because Amumu is strong against Ashe specifically. The adjustments are made to minimize this effect; in this case, I am saying after factoring in the power levels of Ashe and Leona individually, Ashe still loses 7% more often when Leona is on the other side - this suggests Leona counters Ashe quite hard. Out of curiosity, could you do this for Veigar? I know that gragas/zed are considered the hardest counters vs him, and hes considered to counter Ahri, but it would be interesting to see what the data says.
I can, but currently it takes ~1 hour to compute for a particular champion and I am already doing a pretty big batch. Also, Veigar is not too popular, which makes things tricky.
I'll run it once my current batch is done.
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On March 22 2014 16:57 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 15:21 Ryuu314 wrote:On March 22 2014 15:08 VayneAuthority wrote:
his damage reduction greatly upsets people that are meant to delete you in one go. His ult can make you blow flash whenever he wants pretty much with your unreliable method of escape from ganks. lets face it gragas is just a "counter" to a lot right now Gragas has also been relevant in the pro scene longer than any other champion in the game (that I can think of). He fell off a little bit during season 2 around Worlds iirc 'cause Anivia and Oriana were so strong then, but honestly he's been extremely relevant since Season 1. Like, I think the direction Riot's taking with their Gragas rework is kinda dumb and the justifications for some of the changes are stupid (ult people into Q is like..pure luck, maybe 10% skill) but given Riot's track record and Gragas's record a nerf/rework is not unexpected at all. Caitlyn, Vayne and Lee Sin
oyea. forgot about that legendary westrice top lane tank vayne
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On March 22 2014 19:14 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 16:57 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On March 22 2014 15:21 Ryuu314 wrote:On March 22 2014 15:08 VayneAuthority wrote:
his damage reduction greatly upsets people that are meant to delete you in one go. His ult can make you blow flash whenever he wants pretty much with your unreliable method of escape from ganks. lets face it gragas is just a "counter" to a lot right now Gragas has also been relevant in the pro scene longer than any other champion in the game (that I can think of). He fell off a little bit during season 2 around Worlds iirc 'cause Anivia and Oriana were so strong then, but honestly he's been extremely relevant since Season 1. Like, I think the direction Riot's taking with their Gragas rework is kinda dumb and the justifications for some of the changes are stupid (ult people into Q is like..pure luck, maybe 10% skill) but given Riot's track record and Gragas's record a nerf/rework is not unexpected at all. Caitlyn, Vayne and Lee Sin oyea. forgot about that legendary westrice top lane tank vayne
sounds terrible
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%max HP damage on Gragas. Eh.
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I think I'd get rid of the Q AS slow (removes a bit of top lane viability). I'd also lower ratios on his R. Not base damage. His ult is currently mostly used for damage and not displacement (which fits with the meta of no AOE comps, just deleting champs one at a time).
But what's more important imo is that Athene's > Deathcap is always the buildpath you go for (with maybe a armguard inbetween for Kha/Zed matchups). This buildpath favours Gragas immensely. Make sustain damage mages more favourable (buffing WotA, Abyssal, Liandry) and you'll see Gragas being less dominant.
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On March 22 2014 17:02 Chrispy wrote:
Naniwa with the mad respect for Faker and for League's skill cap in his interview with Thorin. Naniwa's been playing League lately too.
Neato.
idk if naniwa would be good in a team game like league lol.
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Pretty sure that Graves buff will make him retarded good botlane without the severe drop off from someone face tanking his ult
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EPT
