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Why is it irrelevant? We hardly ever discuss champions in LoL-strategy that can be played in other roles (unconventional), but i think it would be fun, that for an exchange, we stop the elitist attitude and just have fun.
We also don't talk about Starcraft strategy based on C- iCCup skill level.
Yeah, well Starcraft is 1v1 and LoL is 5v5. Most of us, play solo queue and some people don't even like it, because of the ego's and the flaming. For the good players (Diamond+) we see beyound the flaming and are still able to carry, but some people just aren't and you have to accept that. So they go into normal games and play random shit and win, cause it normals. Why aren't they allowed to talk about this, without listening to all the "this doesn't work in higher levels of play". SO WHAT? They probably fucking know that already, so why are we always pointing it out, we're just scaring people and then they hardly ever talk.
EDIT: We should just split the strategy section in two; 1 which describes the champions that work in competetive play and how you play like that and then another section that talk about fun strategies (Kinda like T.R.O.L.L.S).
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Baa?21242 Posts
On February 19 2014 23:52 Sponkz wrote:
Why is it irrelevant? We hardly ever discuss champions in LoL-strategy that can be played in other roles (unconventional), but i think it would be fun, that for an exchange, we stop the elitist attitude and just have fun.
I think you're on the wrong forum.
We also don't talk about Starcraft strategy based on C- iCCup skill level.
Yeah, well Starcraft is 1v1 and LoL is 5v5. Most of us, play solo queue and some people don't even like it, because of the ego's and the flaming. For the good players (Diamond+) we see beyound the flaming and are still able to carry, but some people just aren't and you have to accept that. So they go into normal games and play random shit and win, cause it normals. Why aren't they allowed to talk about this, without listening to all the "this doesn't work in higher levels of play". SO WHAT? They probably fucking know that already, so why are we always pointing it out, we're just scaring people and then they hardly ever talk.
I have no idea what point you're trying to make. This is a forum designed to discuss League, and when strategy is involved, it's ostensibly to discuss how to get better at League. There is zero merit to discussing strategies that don't work at all levels of play.
You conflate honest, objective feedback with flaming and elitism, when there's really no connection between the two outside of oversensitive people who can't take accurate criticism mistaking one for the other.
EDIT: We should just split the strategy section in two; 1 which describes the champions that work in competetive play and how you play like that and then another section that talk about fun strategies (Kinda like T.R.O.L.L.S).
So go talk in TROLLS why do you want to inflict "funn" on other people who have no interest in it?
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I think one big question is what do you want to discuss, if not how viable the champion is in higher levels of play. Almost everything is viable in normal games other than if it's really stupid like AP Zed, and even then you could win some games with it. I can play tons of games and then say "see it worked in low level games", but you don't need data to back that up as I said it works with almost anything.
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On February 19 2014 23:59 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2014 23:52 Sponkz wrote:
Why is it irrelevant? We hardly ever discuss champions in LoL-strategy that can be played in other roles (unconventional), but i think it would be fun, that for an exchange, we stop the elitist attitude and just have fun.
I think you're on the wrong forum.
We also don't talk about Starcraft strategy based on C- iCCup skill level.
Yeah, well Starcraft is 1v1 and LoL is 5v5. Most of us, play solo queue and some people don't even like it, because of the ego's and the flaming. For the good players (Diamond+) we see beyound the flaming and are still able to carry, but some people just aren't and you have to accept that. So they go into normal games and play random shit and win, cause it normals. Why aren't they allowed to talk about this, without listening to all the "this doesn't work in higher levels of play". SO WHAT? They probably fucking know that already, so why are we always pointing it out, we're just scaring people and then they hardly ever talk.
I have no idea what point you're trying to make. This is a forum designed to discuss League, and when strategy is involved, it's ostensibly to discuss how to get better at League. There is zero merit to discussing strategies that don't work at all levels of play.
You conflate honest, objective feedback with flaming and elitism, when there's really no connection between the two outside of oversensitive people who can't take accurate criticism mistaking one for the other.
EDIT: We should just split the strategy section in two; 1 which describes the champions that work in competetive play and how you play like that and then another section that talk about fun strategies (Kinda like T.R.O.L.L.S).
So go talk in TROLLS why do you want to inflict "funn" on other people who have no interest in it?
Why can't we have both? I know NA has had TROLLS for some time now, and though at the time when it was posted, i see now why people enjoy this. But it should be for everyone, not just NA. You gotta remember I'm a EU guy, and we only really have TL IH's which focuses on improving as a player.
On February 20 2014 00:00 loSleb wrote:
I think one big question is what do you want to discuss, if not how viable the champion is in higher levels of play. Almost everything is viable in normal games other than if it's really stupid like AP Zed, and even then you could win some games with it. I can play tons of games and then say "see it worked in low level games", but you don't need data to back that up as I said it works with almost anything.
Because there are several ways to describe strategy. Some LCS teams and OGN teams have their play style and it's important, that you find your own play style and find what you find fun about the game. This game isn't and shouldn't be all about becoming a better player, but also having fun while doing it. Otherwise you just create solo queue behaviour.
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Baa?21242 Posts
I am not objecting to that at all. There is nothing that prevents you from organizing TROLLS-EU, and whoever is willing to play in it can participate. It's also a completely different issue than the multiple ones you've brought up.
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On February 20 2014 00:05 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I am not objecting to that at all. There is nothing that prevents you from organizing TROLLS-EU, and whoever is willing to play in it can participate. It's also a completely different issue than the multiple ones you've brought up.
Read this, it's from Sarah Bryant, she was the one that got me thinking:
It's not a question of belief, if i didn't post that screenshot no one would have known, and no one should care. Only one thing matters in league of legends and that's how good you are in game. I don't take shit becuase i play to win 100% and to be the best, and i play with like minded people, not with people who care about gender.
So...ww support?
it's just a fun idea i came up with and after testing turned up nice, ran it through some irc channels, didn't work out, thought i'd register here becuase i heard other games forums here are good. I didnt wan't to waste everyone's time and try to sell people shit/troll ideas, , so i state the following in my initial message before anything else:
Not worth picking over top supports
cant beat perfect play means he's bad for very high levels
bad lane, awful lane
cant ward as good as others
Then i list positive stuff
Now it's fine if people call it bad, awful, god awful, etc, but what they do is:
"No it sucks becuase other top supports are better[said it in my post]
"No it sucks becuase adc is in bad spot[said it]
"No you suck you are baddie if you think he can work"
No real discussion, not even an attempt to see if my pros i've raised are legit, just repeating message after message about the cons i already said myself. It's a shit atmosphere in a place i thought people would apperciate such thinking and ideas
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Baa?21242 Posts
On February 20 2014 00:08 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2014 00:05 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I am not objecting to that at all. There is nothing that prevents you from organizing TROLLS-EU, and whoever is willing to play in it can participate. It's also a completely different issue than the multiple ones you've brought up. Read this, it's from Sarah Bryant, she was the one that got me thinking: It's not a question of belief, if i didn't post that screenshot no one would have known, and no one should care. Only one thing matters in league of legends and that's how good you are in game. I don't take shit becuase i play to win 100% and to be the best, and i play with like minded people, not with people who care about gender. So...ww support? it's just a fun idea i came up with and after testing turned up nice, ran it through some irc channels, didn't work out, thought i'd register here becuase i heard other games forums here are good. I didnt wan't to waste everyone's time and try to sell people shit/troll ideas, , so i state the following in my initial message before anything else: Not worth picking over top supports cant beat perfect play means he's bad for very high levels bad lane, awful lane cant ward as good as others Then i list positive stuff Now it's fine if people call it bad, awful, god awful, etc, but what they do is: "No it sucks becuase other top supports are better[said it in my post] "No it sucks becuase adc is in bad spot[said it] "No you suck you are baddie if you think he can work" No real discussion, not even an attempt to see if my pros i've raised are legit, just repeating message after message about the cons i already said myself. It's a shit atmosphere in a place i thought people would apperciate such thinking and ideas
I wasn't here over the weekend for this but I skimmed through the thread/fiasco when I returned. Basically everyone is stupid.
The way I see it is:
Sarah Bryant comes in with a very silly idea. When he himself admitted that it's a bad idea, it leads to the inevitable of question of "why did you even bring it up in the first place?"
On the flip side, a lo tof really terrible posters decided to bandwagon and shit on the new guy, which is an issue that people like Roffles and Neo have already addressed in the past, but perhaps it bears restating. That's an issue with people responding poorly to something that was bad to begin with, which leads to an inevitable spiral of shit.
This does not, however, mean we should tolerate bad posts like the support WW one and simply tell people not to respond poorly to it. We should do the latter, but we should not do the former.
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Exactly, now we're on the same page! That's why i think a sub-forum designated specifically for these "fun" ideas would be a great thing!
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Baa?21242 Posts
On February 20 2014 00:15 Sponkz wrote:
Exactly, now we're on the same page! That's why i think a sub-forum designated specifically for these "fun" ideas would be a great thing!
I don't object to this on principle, but this is something for Neo/other LoL mods to decide, whether it be a separate thread or a separate forum or some other solution if it were to be implemented at all.
I must point out, however, that this is not at all what you proposed in your OP, which implied people can do this in GD/LoL strategy alongside more "legitimate" threads/discussions.
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Splitting an already seldom-used subforum wouldnt go very well i think. I still dont understand why you want it removed from GD. Discussing unconventional picks doesnt always dissolve into "lol wtf ban". If the pick has some legtimate thought behind it (better yet, testing and results), it will get discussed.
Even the most recent example of WW support had people discussing why it wasnt viable even as an unconventional pick at any level (provided both teams are the same level.) things were discussed and points were listed as to why it wasnt good and nobody could come up with a very legitimate counter-arguement for it. Of course that was imbetween alot of flaming and flame-baiting from a few idiots, but it didnt help that the person advocating WW support refused to provide evidence/counter arguements in a decent fashion to begin with while still claiming it was perfectly ok, both sides of that shit-storm were at fault.
Anything below that standard is just a "troll" / fun pick really that doesnt warrant enough discussion or serious debate.
And WP posters, Guy makes a blog talking about things he's never expressed before now about how he always felt socially awkward and shit and what do you guys do? Tell him he shouldnt be spouting that shit here. Shameful.
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On February 20 2014 00:18 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2014 00:15 Sponkz wrote:
Exactly, now we're on the same page! That's why i think a sub-forum designated specifically for these "fun" ideas would be a great thing! I don't object to this on principle, but this is something for Neo/other LoL mods to decide, whether it be a separate thread or a separate forum or some other solution if it were to be implemented at all. I must point out, however, that this is not at all what you proposed in your OP, which implied people can do this in GD/LoL strategy alongside more "legitimate" threads/discussions.
Yeah, I've just always been a self-righteous person fighting for the little guy ever since i was little and sometimes the little guy just need his/hers voice heard, that's how i feel.
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5/5 would read again while drunk
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Happy you're doing better Sponkz. It kind of coincides with my own struggles, except that I've never had drugs in my life. Just had a pretty shitty period where nothing seemed to work out and I had to figure out that I can't do everything on my own without any help from outside, and that making mistakes is ok as long as I've tried my best (ty parents for pressuring me to perform).
Just keep working at it, we'll all get there 
The rest of EU LP and the TLIH group love you back, or at least my part of it. <3
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So let me get this right, you want a subforum or thread for serious discussion of "troll" or completely, out of left-field unconventional champions?
The issue I see with doing that, is that conventional picks are there for a reason, they work and work well, and generally do things better in the chaotic clusterfucks that League games sometimes fall into. So, wouldn't an "unconventional" pick basically not just hamstring yourself, but other players in the game as well? The biggest hurdle you would need to get over is how everyone, aside from the highest levels of soloq, gives up at champion select anytime there's a massively weak pick that happens that is also unconventional because people who play Ranked, want to win. Winning is fun for the majority of people, others like to troll or dick around, but the general consensus is that blind pick normals are for trolling of the highest order, draft normals are less trolly, but it still happens, and ranked is for "tryhards".
How do you purpose getting around this mentality of the playerbase? I'm firmly on the side of, "it doesn't work at the highest levels, why should I bother?" and most of the rest of TL, and the players who follow LCS/OGN/whatever want to get better as well, so they only play the FotM champions or very niche, but strong picks, and then only certain niche picks, such as Tryndemere, Singed, and Soraka/Thresh with Urgot.
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the problem is you're saying they are FOTM champs, and champs that dont work at the highest level or some shit, that's totally wrong, there are plenty of champs that work at the highest level and aren't currently FOTM, lulu mid exploded from nowhere, kayle came from not being played a while either, but i never say anyone theorycrafting and testing it in trolls or whatever they are just wasting time with ideas that clearly wont work
theres plenty of room for trying non FOTM champs that doesn't only work vs baddies
the thing is everything works at lower levels of play assuming you are skilled enough, while everything that works at higher levels also works at lower levels
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On February 20 2014 01:02 Crusnik wrote:
So let me get this right, you want a subforum or thread for serious discussion of "troll" or completely, out of left-field unconventional champions?
The issue I see with doing that, is that conventional picks are there for a reason, they work and work well, and generally do things better in the chaotic clusterfucks that League games sometimes fall into. So, wouldn't an "unconventional" pick basically not just hamstring yourself, but other players in the game as well? The biggest hurdle you would need to get over is how everyone, aside from the highest levels of soloq, gives up at champion select anytime there's a massively weak pick that happens that is also unconventional because people who play Ranked, want to win. Winning is fun for the majority of people, others like to troll or dick around, but the general consensus is that blind pick normals are for trolling of the highest order, draft normals are less trolly, but it still happens, and ranked is for "tryhards".
How do you purpose getting around this mentality of the playerbase? I'm firmly on the side of, "it doesn't work at the highest levels, why should I bother?" and most of the rest of TL, and the players who follow LCS/OGN/whatever want to get better as well, so they only play the FotM champions or very niche, but strong picks, and then only certain niche picks, such as Tryndemere, Singed, and Soraka/Thresh with Urgot.
When you say player base, do you mean the people who are already active on Team Liquid or the general LoL player base? Cus what I'm aiming at, is the casual players, who play the game for fun. Everybody should be playing this game, because it's fun and some have fun while improving while others stay close with their friends and just develop fun strategies to execute in low-tier ranked 5v5 or normal games and that's what i think we should ALSO promote. We already have the whole tryhard thing solved, but we lack the fun discussions, where we can brag about how we played retarded shit like AP Sona or Tank Kassadin and it worked and we won. Like freaking Copenhagen Wolves played AP Trundle during a LAN here in Denmark, i mean what the fuck  !
At the end of the day, League of Legends is just a game for most people and sport to a selected group of individuals who are better than the majority of the player base, but we also need to promote fun and someone like Sarah Bryant (who is just one of many) that actually take the scientific approach to her unconventional picks should be allowed to have her voice heard WITHOUT all the bashing!
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But if you play just for fun, why would you even take a scientific approach to an unconventional pick? There is no need to convince anyone of anything if you just play for fun. Argueing for the viability of something only makes sense if winning is the goal. (it is a 'constitutive goal' for any viability discussion)
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Because that's how you do it, in this game. You look at pro's and con's, match-ups, item-builds, masteries, runes, scaling etc. and it all comes down to math (and how you play in-game).
EDIT: Like a conclusion to Sarah Bryant (sorry for repeating this example, but the issue has been adressed) and her WW build would be:
Works in lower tier play
Extremely fun to play
Good AS scaling while providing supression
And after she has said what needs to be said, you can go into a game and try it and give your feedback, maybe she got some of the numbers wrong etc. and from there you slowly work your way up to a point where it's "viable".
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The people on TL are generally more concerned with playing at the top level, or at least watch it, such as myself. I'm more biased towards not liking none-meta, just because of what I said, I hate losing, yeah I'll troll around, but if I start losing in other games, I bring out more conventional things. League is different in that you are stuck with your decisions, so I won't bring out weird shit as much, even if I love the champion (rip Corki)
I'm just going to ignore the support WW thing, that isn't just unviable, it forces your AD to basically play a 1v2 with an XP sponge nearby, not my idea of fun. Yes, the bashing was over-the-top, but was definitely warranted since there are isn't a single reasons to play it outside of being forced into supporting and you hate your team. Harsh, but that's what it comes down to, you generally are fucking over your team by doing weird, off-meta shit or forcing odd play from your teammates, which in anything other than arranged play usually results in a loss and if it's unexpected, depending on your friends, even they will flame you for the pick. And I do have a friend who loved the offmeta thing, even with evidence that it doesn't work as well as other picks, such as Maokai, Nautilus, Quinn in a duo lane, etc
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EPT
