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Hello, my beloved TL-LoL Community. Over the years, I’ve come to realize, how much this forum means to me, and how I enjoy spending every single day, reading threads and posts by various users all over the world. To start this thread out, I need to clarify who I am, in order to get my intention out truthfully.
Who am I?
My name’s Kristoffer, I’m 22 years old, grew up in Grindsted and now living in Aarhus, Denmark. When I was in a younger state of life, I had a lot of troubles in school, I never really liked being with other kids, because they always saw me as different. This resulted in some real emotional issues, and my parents got divorced when I was 7, so that didn’t really help either. Luckily, teachers in school realized I was smart and misunderstood and that helped me, become the person I am today. I didn’t have that many friends in school and people always looked at me as “the bad guy”, because I loved to be provocative and that got me into unwanted fights which resulted in problems. When I turned 16 I started in upper secondary school, barely making it into the school in the first place, because I was lazy and sat in front of my computer every day playing World of Warcraft. I got some new friends though, and started drinking, which is rather common here in Denmark.
The downside to all this, were the consequences of some of my actions; at the age of 16 I also started experimenting with drugs. For those of you, who are inexperienced with drugs, I took something called Methylone, a research chemical back at that point (back in late 2007-early 2008 and it got illegal in Denmark march 2008) and it’s preparation of MDMA just 5x stronger and 99,9% pure (when you buy research chemicals, they’re always near purity). It opened up a whole new world to me, that I wasn’t ready for. Hell, I was only 16, I had no idea what I was doing and I just did it, because my friends did it. It resulted in all the emotions that I had been hiding for years coming out to reality and I wasn’t ready to show them. It certainly didn’t help me that my best friend at that time was jealous of me and although people told me this, I just ignored them, because for once I was happy, even if our friendship was based on drugs.
Fast-forward to fall 2008, I started seeing this girl. Some of my friends told me, she had been with this real psycho 1 town away and that I should stay away from her, but did I? No! And what did that result in? I got caught up in some nasty conflict between a guy from my school (who was dating my sister at that time) and the psycho kids (yes, they ARE psychos, they did cocaine like some people eat candy) and one night, when we were out partying, they confronted us. My friend ran the fuck away and I got beaten up by 6-7 guys I didn’t know. This resulted in trust-issues and a lot of emotional stress. My dad got furious, and wanted to get them into court, and while we did get into court only 2 were convicted and I’m still anxious about this. 1 guy got 50 days suspended prison, the other guy got 60 days suspended prison. So here I am, I’ve been through hell, I got a serious depression and were in a mental ward for 3 months, and those faggots aren’t even going to fucking jail?! I was pissed, I couldn’t control myself, I tried to kill myself, I slept with my best friend’s girlfriend just to relieve some of the anger and it wasn’t enough. I was selfish, I was young, I was a fucking dick to everyone and soon it became a part of my personality. I was told from the mental ward, to be open about my problems, but as some of you may know, mental illnesses are hard to talk about, because some people will think you’re victimizing yourself, other people will think you exaggerate and some people just won’t believe you, no matter what you tell them. And since I’m from a small town with 9.500 people, they start talking and rumors start spreading. It didn’t help, that I so desperately wanted to succeed in life, being forced to drop out of the best school class I’ve ever been in, and being forced to start over. Upper secondary school takes 3 years and grants you access to the university, and I tried taking 2nd year three fucking times. I have no idea, why I didn’t just move away and start over, but the drugs came back haunting me. My dad kicked me out, because I wouldn’t listen and I had to start living by myself and being responsible and an adult. This is a lot to put on a 19 year old guy, who is already weak-minded. I was diagnosed with the mental illness “Schizotypy” in late 2010, so I finally knew what was wrong with me, but I wouldn’t accept it. In real life, I tried to show everybody that I was normal, and tried to act normal but I would fail every single time, because I wasn’t normal, and my disease is made in a way, where stress makes you isolate yourself, you start making delusional ideas about what people think about you and that creates more stress which results in micro-psychosis that only lasts for a few days, but they are awfully alike what schizophrenics experience every day. And there is no cure, but learning to control it. Some people with my disease can get anti-psychosis medicine to help them, but it just makes me crazier.
Fast-forward again to February 2011 I was introduced to League of Legends, by a now very dear friend of mine and I quickly came to realize that I wasn’t the only one playing and fellow Teamliquid-user Equilash introduced me to this forum in May 2011. I know, you’ve all heard this before on reddit and other forums, but this fucking saved my life in the end. Since I was mentally ill, I had to be on public service, but I couldn’t work like normal people, I can’t get up in the morning and fulfill my duty, because it will make me stressful and then the train just keeps on going.
Sadly I was haunted by my past; I was still living in Grindsted, smoking weed now instead of doing drugs and it helped me. In late 2011 I met a person who also changed my life. I had a very nice group of friends who played League of Legends together, and some of us were considered a bit of “outcasts”, because we had all failed school even though we were smart guys. One of the guys I always teased, and in his class was a girl, who fell for me, because she could see beyond the façade and knew who I truly was. We started dating and she was really something else. She was normal, she never really tried weed or drugs and had a normal childhood with some-what normal parents and that was refreshing. She became an escape tool from my terrible everyday life, filled with judgments and prejudices and slowly but surely I became more stable. We moved to Aarhus, I tried to start in school again and so far I’m only 1 year away from university and being able to fulfill, what I consider, my duty as a citizen in Denmark, because I’ve been a real whining shithead and I need to atone.
Some of you, might think this is self-righteous bullshit, but for me, I just needed to get my story out in the open. And though this is Team Liquid and not the real world, it’s what I want. I love this community, hell the LP-EU and NA guys are some of the nicest people I’ve ever talked to, and over the years I’ve grown as a person, and started to like people and their ideas. I’m very empathic, but I haven’t been showing this and although I’m agnostic I feel like I need to repent for my sins. That’s who I am, you can think however you want about it, but in order for me to move on with my life, I have to get this out in the open and now I did.
With all this said, I can say that today I am a happy man. I’m studying HF (higher preparation exam) and I’m in the Danish mental-health system, but I also realized that I had to show this to the outer world, that I as a person, have changed and I’m finally ready to show it. No more trolling, no more random discussions about my problems, I’m over it, and this post should prove it.
So what is my intention?
I propose of a rule-change to this forum. Over the years, I’ve seen what egos do to people, both IRL but also in solo queue, normal games and ranked 5v5. I think it’s time, we stop all the bashing and instead take a more scientific approach to the game. League of legends is based on numbers and math and that’s how we should address the game. No more “FoTM or GTFO” talk!
The rule change I propose of, will make the LoL strategy forum more open. These days, everything we do is compare champions to the highest level of the game, but sometimes we forget that not everyone is playing at the highest level of the game. The change I propose is:
If you want to discuss unconventional picks, create a thread in the LoL-strategy, with substantial evidence (replays, stats and also include the skill-range, your experiment was conducted at)
With this change, people can discuss these picks, without always having to listen to “you’re bad, this doesn’t work in d1/challenger” in a formal objective manner. I do believe, that experimenting is good! Experiments are what creates new FoTM and Koreans have been doing this for ages now, so why shouldn’t we? As long as people are aware that this is low-tier champion discussion it’s fine. You don’t have to be hateful towards these people, they are just doing what THEY think is right and what’s wrong with that? League of Legends is more than 35-FoTM champions that are being played mindlessly in LCS, every champion has its own strengths and weaknesses!
Lol, I wrote way more than I intended, sorry about that! I really hope, that we, as a community can grow even more than we have right now, because each of us loves this game, I can tell that!
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
How is smoking weed and doing drugs LoL related? Seems more like a blog material 
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Netherlands4973 Posts
Indeed blog material.
"I slept with my best friend’s girlfriend just to relieve some of the anger and it wasn’t enough."
I'm not sure who is the bigger asshole, you or his gf. This sentence alone made me lose all respect I had for you, regardless of your mental state at that time.
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Oh yeah, i probably left out some details. It was her, after she was done with my best friend, she tried to pull the same trick on me and another friend of mine.
Yeah, it could probably be blog material, but given the fact that I've only really been writing on this sub-forum, i wanted to share it here.
On February 19 2014 20:46 739 wrote:How is smoking weed and doing drugs LoL related? Seems more like a blog material
I dropped the drugs, because of LoL. In the end, you meet people on the internet, you talk to them on skype etc. and you realize that the world isn't such a shitty place after all. I guess, League helped me grow as a person. When i started out, i was bad like super bad, but being able to discuss things openly here on Teamliquid's Sub-forum and interacting with everyone, you start to realize things you haven't realized before. For me, it was to be open about myself and not hide behind my username and using that to boost my ego, both IRL and online.
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Was it really necessary to share all of that just to impart an idea you had for the forum?
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
On February 19 2014 21:04 Peeano wrote:
Indeed blog material.
"I slept with my best friend’s girlfriend just to relieve some of the anger and it wasn’t enough."
I'm not sure who is the bigger asshole, you or his gf. This sentence alone made me lose all respect I had for you, regardless of your mental state at that time.
Why? He slept with his best friends girlfriend and actually he did him a favor, showing how slutty bitch his g/f is... Come on, she wouldn't slept with him if he was fair with her boyfriend.
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Netherlands4973 Posts
On February 19 2014 21:06 Sponkz wrote:Oh yeah, i probably left out some details. It was her, after she was done with my best friend, she tried to pull the same trick on me and another friend of mine. Yeah, it could probably be blog material, but given the fact that I've only really been writing on this sub-forum, i wanted to share it here. Show nested quote +On February 19 2014 20:46 739 wrote:How is smoking weed and doing drugs LoL related? Seems more like a blog material I dropped the drugs, because of LoL. In the end, you meet people on the internet, you talk to them on skype etc. and you realize that the world isn't such a shitty place after all. I guess, League helped me grow as a person. When i started out, i was bad like super bad, but being able to discuss things openly here on Teamliquid's Sub-forum and interacting with everyone, you start to realize things you haven't realized before. For me, it was to be open about myself and not hide being my username and using that to boost my ego, both IRL and online.
Quite vital details if you ask me.
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On February 19 2014 21:07 ReignSupreme. wrote:
Was it really necessary to share all of that just to impart an idea you had for the forum?
Yes. This is the first time, I've shared my story with "the outer world" (not including my gf and my parents+psychiatrist). Like i write, i just needed this to be said, so it can be forgotten and be part of my past, that defined me as a person.
On February 19 2014 21:08 Peeano wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2014 21:06 Sponkz wrote:Oh yeah, i probably left out some details. It was her, after she was done with my best friend, she tried to pull the same trick on me and another friend of mine. Yeah, it could probably be blog material, but given the fact that I've only really been writing on this sub-forum, i wanted to share it here. On February 19 2014 20:46 739 wrote:How is smoking weed and doing drugs LoL related? Seems more like a blog material I dropped the drugs, because of LoL. In the end, you meet people on the internet, you talk to them on skype etc. and you realize that the world isn't such a shitty place after all. I guess, League helped me grow as a person. When i started out, i was bad like super bad, but being able to discuss things openly here on Teamliquid's Sub-forum and interacting with everyone, you start to realize things you haven't realized before. For me, it was to be open about myself and not hide being my username and using that to boost my ego, both IRL and online. Quite vital details if you ask me.
I wasn't sure, how much i was gonna include, because i didn't want this to look like "oh look at me, i'm a victim, do as i say" but more like an explanation of my actions over the years.
Like since you all love TL;DR here's one:
I was an asshole, i didn't have much success in life and got manipulated like a doll. Now i do have success (although small), and i wanna change and bring out the real me.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
I think the best place to discuss unconventional picks atm is T.R.O.L.L.S., although it doesn't have an EU equivalent. I agree that discussions about unconventional picks are rarely worthwhile, but I am not sure a change in policy in the best way to adress that.
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Im very impressed by your honesty. In my oppinion its very brave to tell everyone here about your sickness. Related to the trash talk in mobas I want to say this:
The trash talk results of feelings and emotions. At the end not everyone can handle them with proud and strenght. Emotions and trash talk are part of the game wich make it sometimes so sweet and sometimes so bad. Without love there is no anger and without any anger the would be no love. The correlation of both is what makes moba games a real experience.
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On February 19 2014 21:14 Scip wrote:
I think the best place to discuss unconventional picks atm is T.R.O.L.L.S., although it doesn't have an EU equivalent. I agree that discussions about unconventional picks are rarely worthwhile, but I am not sure a change in policy in the best way to adress that.
I just feel like, the focus have been rather "elitist" and i became one myself when i reached Diamond 1 in Season 3, but I'm still just a person like everyone else, and for some, the "elitist" attitude can sometimes be too much and other strive towards more civil discussions at their skill-range and not top-diamond/challenger level.
On February 19 2014 21:15 Datteln wrote:
Im very impressed by your honesty. In my oppinion its very brave to tell everyone here about your sickness. Related to the trash talk in I want to say this:
The trash talk results of feelings and emotions. At the end not everyone can handle them with proud and sthrenght. Emotions and trash talk are part of the game wich make it sometimes so sweet and sometimes so bad. Without love there is no anger and without any anger the would be no love. The correlation of both is what makes moba games a real experience.
Yeah, you're right. That's why i have decided to retire, because i LOVE the game, but i don't enjoy playing it anymore i guess. It just gets to you, when everytime you queue up, people expect way too much of you. I guess i just don't like my ego being that big.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
This is fine posted here. LoL specific blog posts are more appropriate here than in the blog section with TL set up the way it is at the moment.
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´It just gets to you, when everytime you queue up, people expect way too much of you
People are different...
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On February 19 2014 21:25 Datteln wrote:Show nested quote +´It just gets to you, when everytime you queue up, people expect way too much of you People are different...
Yep, people are indeed different. That's why i strive towards mutual understanding, because when you truly understand one and another, you can start working on your dreams. It sounds kind of gay, i suppose, but that's just who I am and I'm proud of myself 
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wtf
i dont get the connection at all
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Does that mean you'll stop feeding?
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For all the ill-speaking Scip did of T.R.O.L.L.S., I think it's indeed what you're talking about. Probably not now, since it seems like after its pause the activity shrank and it's hard to get a lot of people involved and really meaningful/conclusive discussion going, but that's the concept: get an idea, do some outlining work on it, explain how it's relevant, then T.R.O.L.L.S. may try it out in games at mid-range level and report results and empiric findings. It generally won't be much because games can't be massed, and stacks skews the results compared to solo/duo play, but it's what their schedule affords and it's open to discussion, not gospel conclusions.
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On February 19 2014 22:25 Dandel Ion wrote:
Does that mean you'll stop feeding?
I won't play the game anymore. Hell, i was one of the "founders" of the TL EU IH's yet i was always trolling and feeding and not giving a shit and you deserve better.
EDIT: You have to remember, i myself have a lot of history in the game and while some people just don't care when people flame, i do. It gets to me, because I'm serious about my life and who I am, so imma drop the online games.
On February 19 2014 21:55 Paljas wrote:
wtf
i dont get the connection at all
I guess you haven't seen the "trolling", i understand that.
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Baa?21242 Posts
I think it’s time, we stop all the bashing and instead take a more scientific approach to the game. League of legends is based on numbers and math and that’s how we should address the game.
God no.
No more “FoTM or GTFO” talk!
Misleading connection. There's nothing linking this point with the former.
The rule change I propose of, will make the LoL strategy forum more open. These days, everything we do is compare champions to the highest level of the game,
As should be. We don't do that enough if anything.
but sometimes we forget that not everyone is playing at the highest level of the game.
We also don't talk about Starcraft strategy based on C- iCCup skill level.
The change I propose is:
If you want to discuss unconventional picks, create a thread in the LoL-strategy, with substantial evidence (replays, stats and also include the skill-range, your experiment was conducted at)
This is fine. It's also completely unrelated to all the other preposterous suggestions/points you made before this point.
With this change, people can discuss these picks, without always having to listen to “you’re bad, this doesn’t work in d1/challenger” in a formal objective manner.
What is "formal objective manner?" The shit that Ketara spews? Cause that shit is neither formal nor objective. There are many posters who make good, "formal," and "objective" posts. In fact, "formal objective" posts are probably the opposite of what you actually want because those are precisely the posts which reject the stupid low-level shit that people bring up.
Professional play is literally the only thing that matters. Making strategies that don't work as you climb higher is hurting your own ability to play/improve at the game.
I do believe, that experimenting is good!
Sure. But you're still creating false dichotomies and equivalencies with your earlier points.
Experiments are what creates new FoTM and Koreans have been doing this for ages now, so why shouldn’t we?
Ironically, Korea is one of the most conservative regions in their picks. Pick a different region for your argument.
As long as people are aware that this is low-tier champion discussion it’s fine.
Slippery slope.
You don’t have to be hateful towards these people, they are just doing what THEY think is right and what’s wrong with that?
Lol.
League of Legends is more than 35-FoTM champions that are being played mindlessly in LCS, every champion has its own strengths and weaknesses!
Yes, but again, completely irrelevant to the suggestion you're putting forth.
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Well I'm very glad you're doing so much better. These kinds of posts tend to catch people off guard but I'm just happy you're doing ok.
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Why is it irrelevant? We hardly ever discuss champions in LoL-strategy that can be played in other roles (unconventional), but i think it would be fun, that for an exchange, we stop the elitist attitude and just have fun.
We also don't talk about Starcraft strategy based on C- iCCup skill level.
Yeah, well Starcraft is 1v1 and LoL is 5v5. Most of us, play solo queue and some people don't even like it, because of the ego's and the flaming. For the good players (Diamond+) we see beyound the flaming and are still able to carry, but some people just aren't and you have to accept that. So they go into normal games and play random shit and win, cause it normals. Why aren't they allowed to talk about this, without listening to all the "this doesn't work in higher levels of play". SO WHAT? They probably fucking know that already, so why are we always pointing it out, we're just scaring people and then they hardly ever talk.
EDIT: We should just split the strategy section in two; 1 which describes the champions that work in competetive play and how you play like that and then another section that talk about fun strategies (Kinda like T.R.O.L.L.S).
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Baa?21242 Posts
On February 19 2014 23:52 Sponkz wrote:
Why is it irrelevant? We hardly ever discuss champions in LoL-strategy that can be played in other roles (unconventional), but i think it would be fun, that for an exchange, we stop the elitist attitude and just have fun.
I think you're on the wrong forum.
We also don't talk about Starcraft strategy based on C- iCCup skill level.
Yeah, well Starcraft is 1v1 and LoL is 5v5. Most of us, play solo queue and some people don't even like it, because of the ego's and the flaming. For the good players (Diamond+) we see beyound the flaming and are still able to carry, but some people just aren't and you have to accept that. So they go into normal games and play random shit and win, cause it normals. Why aren't they allowed to talk about this, without listening to all the "this doesn't work in higher levels of play". SO WHAT? They probably fucking know that already, so why are we always pointing it out, we're just scaring people and then they hardly ever talk.
I have no idea what point you're trying to make. This is a forum designed to discuss League, and when strategy is involved, it's ostensibly to discuss how to get better at League. There is zero merit to discussing strategies that don't work at all levels of play.
You conflate honest, objective feedback with flaming and elitism, when there's really no connection between the two outside of oversensitive people who can't take accurate criticism mistaking one for the other.
EDIT: We should just split the strategy section in two; 1 which describes the champions that work in competetive play and how you play like that and then another section that talk about fun strategies (Kinda like T.R.O.L.L.S).
So go talk in TROLLS why do you want to inflict "funn" on other people who have no interest in it?
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I think one big question is what do you want to discuss, if not how viable the champion is in higher levels of play. Almost everything is viable in normal games other than if it's really stupid like AP Zed, and even then you could win some games with it. I can play tons of games and then say "see it worked in low level games", but you don't need data to back that up as I said it works with almost anything.
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On February 19 2014 23:59 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2014 23:52 Sponkz wrote:
Why is it irrelevant? We hardly ever discuss champions in LoL-strategy that can be played in other roles (unconventional), but i think it would be fun, that for an exchange, we stop the elitist attitude and just have fun.
I think you're on the wrong forum.
We also don't talk about Starcraft strategy based on C- iCCup skill level.
Yeah, well Starcraft is 1v1 and LoL is 5v5. Most of us, play solo queue and some people don't even like it, because of the ego's and the flaming. For the good players (Diamond+) we see beyound the flaming and are still able to carry, but some people just aren't and you have to accept that. So they go into normal games and play random shit and win, cause it normals. Why aren't they allowed to talk about this, without listening to all the "this doesn't work in higher levels of play". SO WHAT? They probably fucking know that already, so why are we always pointing it out, we're just scaring people and then they hardly ever talk.
I have no idea what point you're trying to make. This is a forum designed to discuss League, and when strategy is involved, it's ostensibly to discuss how to get better at League. There is zero merit to discussing strategies that don't work at all levels of play.
You conflate honest, objective feedback with flaming and elitism, when there's really no connection between the two outside of oversensitive people who can't take accurate criticism mistaking one for the other.
EDIT: We should just split the strategy section in two; 1 which describes the champions that work in competetive play and how you play like that and then another section that talk about fun strategies (Kinda like T.R.O.L.L.S).
So go talk in TROLLS why do you want to inflict "funn" on other people who have no interest in it?
Why can't we have both? I know NA has had TROLLS for some time now, and though at the time when it was posted, i see now why people enjoy this. But it should be for everyone, not just NA. You gotta remember I'm a EU guy, and we only really have TL IH's which focuses on improving as a player.
On February 20 2014 00:00 loSleb wrote:
I think one big question is what do you want to discuss, if not how viable the champion is in higher levels of play. Almost everything is viable in normal games other than if it's really stupid like AP Zed, and even then you could win some games with it. I can play tons of games and then say "see it worked in low level games", but you don't need data to back that up as I said it works with almost anything.
Because there are several ways to describe strategy. Some LCS teams and OGN teams have their play style and it's important, that you find your own play style and find what you find fun about the game. This game isn't and shouldn't be all about becoming a better player, but also having fun while doing it. Otherwise you just create solo queue behaviour.
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Baa?21242 Posts
I am not objecting to that at all. There is nothing that prevents you from organizing TROLLS-EU, and whoever is willing to play in it can participate. It's also a completely different issue than the multiple ones you've brought up.
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On February 20 2014 00:05 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I am not objecting to that at all. There is nothing that prevents you from organizing TROLLS-EU, and whoever is willing to play in it can participate. It's also a completely different issue than the multiple ones you've brought up.
Read this, it's from Sarah Bryant, she was the one that got me thinking:
It's not a question of belief, if i didn't post that screenshot no one would have known, and no one should care. Only one thing matters in league of legends and that's how good you are in game. I don't take shit becuase i play to win 100% and to be the best, and i play with like minded people, not with people who care about gender.
So...ww support?
it's just a fun idea i came up with and after testing turned up nice, ran it through some irc channels, didn't work out, thought i'd register here becuase i heard other games forums here are good. I didnt wan't to waste everyone's time and try to sell people shit/troll ideas, , so i state the following in my initial message before anything else:
Not worth picking over top supports
cant beat perfect play means he's bad for very high levels
bad lane, awful lane
cant ward as good as others
Then i list positive stuff
Now it's fine if people call it bad, awful, god awful, etc, but what they do is:
"No it sucks becuase other top supports are better[said it in my post]
"No it sucks becuase adc is in bad spot[said it]
"No you suck you are baddie if you think he can work"
No real discussion, not even an attempt to see if my pros i've raised are legit, just repeating message after message about the cons i already said myself. It's a shit atmosphere in a place i thought people would apperciate such thinking and ideas
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Baa?21242 Posts
On February 20 2014 00:08 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2014 00:05 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I am not objecting to that at all. There is nothing that prevents you from organizing TROLLS-EU, and whoever is willing to play in it can participate. It's also a completely different issue than the multiple ones you've brought up. Read this, it's from Sarah Bryant, she was the one that got me thinking: It's not a question of belief, if i didn't post that screenshot no one would have known, and no one should care. Only one thing matters in league of legends and that's how good you are in game. I don't take shit becuase i play to win 100% and to be the best, and i play with like minded people, not with people who care about gender. So...ww support? it's just a fun idea i came up with and after testing turned up nice, ran it through some irc channels, didn't work out, thought i'd register here becuase i heard other games forums here are good. I didnt wan't to waste everyone's time and try to sell people shit/troll ideas, , so i state the following in my initial message before anything else: Not worth picking over top supports cant beat perfect play means he's bad for very high levels bad lane, awful lane cant ward as good as others Then i list positive stuff Now it's fine if people call it bad, awful, god awful, etc, but what they do is: "No it sucks becuase other top supports are better[said it in my post] "No it sucks becuase adc is in bad spot[said it] "No you suck you are baddie if you think he can work" No real discussion, not even an attempt to see if my pros i've raised are legit, just repeating message after message about the cons i already said myself. It's a shit atmosphere in a place i thought people would apperciate such thinking and ideas
I wasn't here over the weekend for this but I skimmed through the thread/fiasco when I returned. Basically everyone is stupid.
The way I see it is:
Sarah Bryant comes in with a very silly idea. When he himself admitted that it's a bad idea, it leads to the inevitable of question of "why did you even bring it up in the first place?"
On the flip side, a lo tof really terrible posters decided to bandwagon and shit on the new guy, which is an issue that people like Roffles and Neo have already addressed in the past, but perhaps it bears restating. That's an issue with people responding poorly to something that was bad to begin with, which leads to an inevitable spiral of shit.
This does not, however, mean we should tolerate bad posts like the support WW one and simply tell people not to respond poorly to it. We should do the latter, but we should not do the former.
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Exactly, now we're on the same page! That's why i think a sub-forum designated specifically for these "fun" ideas would be a great thing!
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Baa?21242 Posts
On February 20 2014 00:15 Sponkz wrote:
Exactly, now we're on the same page! That's why i think a sub-forum designated specifically for these "fun" ideas would be a great thing!
I don't object to this on principle, but this is something for Neo/other LoL mods to decide, whether it be a separate thread or a separate forum or some other solution if it were to be implemented at all.
I must point out, however, that this is not at all what you proposed in your OP, which implied people can do this in GD/LoL strategy alongside more "legitimate" threads/discussions.
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Splitting an already seldom-used subforum wouldnt go very well i think. I still dont understand why you want it removed from GD. Discussing unconventional picks doesnt always dissolve into "lol wtf ban". If the pick has some legtimate thought behind it (better yet, testing and results), it will get discussed.
Even the most recent example of WW support had people discussing why it wasnt viable even as an unconventional pick at any level (provided both teams are the same level.) things were discussed and points were listed as to why it wasnt good and nobody could come up with a very legitimate counter-arguement for it. Of course that was imbetween alot of flaming and flame-baiting from a few idiots, but it didnt help that the person advocating WW support refused to provide evidence/counter arguements in a decent fashion to begin with while still claiming it was perfectly ok, both sides of that shit-storm were at fault.
Anything below that standard is just a "troll" / fun pick really that doesnt warrant enough discussion or serious debate.
And WP posters, Guy makes a blog talking about things he's never expressed before now about how he always felt socially awkward and shit and what do you guys do? Tell him he shouldnt be spouting that shit here. Shameful.
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On February 20 2014 00:18 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2014 00:15 Sponkz wrote:
Exactly, now we're on the same page! That's why i think a sub-forum designated specifically for these "fun" ideas would be a great thing! I don't object to this on principle, but this is something for Neo/other LoL mods to decide, whether it be a separate thread or a separate forum or some other solution if it were to be implemented at all. I must point out, however, that this is not at all what you proposed in your OP, which implied people can do this in GD/LoL strategy alongside more "legitimate" threads/discussions.
Yeah, I've just always been a self-righteous person fighting for the little guy ever since i was little and sometimes the little guy just need his/hers voice heard, that's how i feel.
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5/5 would read again while drunk
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Happy you're doing better Sponkz. It kind of coincides with my own struggles, except that I've never had drugs in my life. Just had a pretty shitty period where nothing seemed to work out and I had to figure out that I can't do everything on my own without any help from outside, and that making mistakes is ok as long as I've tried my best (ty parents for pressuring me to perform).
Just keep working at it, we'll all get there
The rest of EU LP and the TLIH group love you back, or at least my part of it. <3
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So let me get this right, you want a subforum or thread for serious discussion of "troll" or completely, out of left-field unconventional champions?
The issue I see with doing that, is that conventional picks are there for a reason, they work and work well, and generally do things better in the chaotic clusterfucks that League games sometimes fall into. So, wouldn't an "unconventional" pick basically not just hamstring yourself, but other players in the game as well? The biggest hurdle you would need to get over is how everyone, aside from the highest levels of soloq, gives up at champion select anytime there's a massively weak pick that happens that is also unconventional because people who play Ranked, want to win. Winning is fun for the majority of people, others like to troll or dick around, but the general consensus is that blind pick normals are for trolling of the highest order, draft normals are less trolly, but it still happens, and ranked is for "tryhards".
How do you purpose getting around this mentality of the playerbase? I'm firmly on the side of, "it doesn't work at the highest levels, why should I bother?" and most of the rest of TL, and the players who follow LCS/OGN/whatever want to get better as well, so they only play the FotM champions or very niche, but strong picks, and then only certain niche picks, such as Tryndemere, Singed, and Soraka/Thresh with Urgot.
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the problem is you're saying they are FOTM champs, and champs that dont work at the highest level or some shit, that's totally wrong, there are plenty of champs that work at the highest level and aren't currently FOTM, lulu mid exploded from nowhere, kayle came from not being played a while either, but i never say anyone theorycrafting and testing it in trolls or whatever they are just wasting time with ideas that clearly wont work
theres plenty of room for trying non FOTM champs that doesn't only work vs baddies
the thing is everything works at lower levels of play assuming you are skilled enough, while everything that works at higher levels also works at lower levels
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On February 20 2014 01:02 Crusnik wrote:
So let me get this right, you want a subforum or thread for serious discussion of "troll" or completely, out of left-field unconventional champions?
The issue I see with doing that, is that conventional picks are there for a reason, they work and work well, and generally do things better in the chaotic clusterfucks that League games sometimes fall into. So, wouldn't an "unconventional" pick basically not just hamstring yourself, but other players in the game as well? The biggest hurdle you would need to get over is how everyone, aside from the highest levels of soloq, gives up at champion select anytime there's a massively weak pick that happens that is also unconventional because people who play Ranked, want to win. Winning is fun for the majority of people, others like to troll or dick around, but the general consensus is that blind pick normals are for trolling of the highest order, draft normals are less trolly, but it still happens, and ranked is for "tryhards".
How do you purpose getting around this mentality of the playerbase? I'm firmly on the side of, "it doesn't work at the highest levels, why should I bother?" and most of the rest of TL, and the players who follow LCS/OGN/whatever want to get better as well, so they only play the FotM champions or very niche, but strong picks, and then only certain niche picks, such as Tryndemere, Singed, and Soraka/Thresh with Urgot.
When you say player base, do you mean the people who are already active on Team Liquid or the general LoL player base? Cus what I'm aiming at, is the casual players, who play the game for fun. Everybody should be playing this game, because it's fun and some have fun while improving while others stay close with their friends and just develop fun strategies to execute in low-tier ranked 5v5 or normal games and that's what i think we should ALSO promote. We already have the whole tryhard thing solved, but we lack the fun discussions, where we can brag about how we played retarded shit like AP Sona or Tank Kassadin and it worked and we won. Like freaking Copenhagen Wolves played AP Trundle during a LAN here in Denmark, i mean what the fuck !
At the end of the day, League of Legends is just a game for most people and sport to a selected group of individuals who are better than the majority of the player base, but we also need to promote fun and someone like Sarah Bryant (who is just one of many) that actually take the scientific approach to her unconventional picks should be allowed to have her voice heard WITHOUT all the bashing!
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But if you play just for fun, why would you even take a scientific approach to an unconventional pick? There is no need to convince anyone of anything if you just play for fun. Argueing for the viability of something only makes sense if winning is the goal. (it is a 'constitutive goal' for any viability discussion)
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Because that's how you do it, in this game. You look at pro's and con's, match-ups, item-builds, masteries, runes, scaling etc. and it all comes down to math (and how you play in-game).
EDIT: Like a conclusion to Sarah Bryant (sorry for repeating this example, but the issue has been adressed) and her WW build would be:
Works in lower tier play
Extremely fun to play
Good AS scaling while providing supression
And after she has said what needs to be said, you can go into a game and try it and give your feedback, maybe she got some of the numbers wrong etc. and from there you slowly work your way up to a point where it's "viable".
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The people on TL are generally more concerned with playing at the top level, or at least watch it, such as myself. I'm more biased towards not liking none-meta, just because of what I said, I hate losing, yeah I'll troll around, but if I start losing in other games, I bring out more conventional things. League is different in that you are stuck with your decisions, so I won't bring out weird shit as much, even if I love the champion (rip Corki)
I'm just going to ignore the support WW thing, that isn't just unviable, it forces your AD to basically play a 1v2 with an XP sponge nearby, not my idea of fun. Yes, the bashing was over-the-top, but was definitely warranted since there are isn't a single reasons to play it outside of being forced into supporting and you hate your team. Harsh, but that's what it comes down to, you generally are fucking over your team by doing weird, off-meta shit or forcing odd play from your teammates, which in anything other than arranged play usually results in a loss and if it's unexpected, depending on your friends, even they will flame you for the pick. And I do have a friend who loved the offmeta thing, even with evidence that it doesn't work as well as other picks, such as Maokai, Nautilus, Quinn in a duo lane, etc
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That's why there should be a seperation, so people don't get confused. Right now, if i brought up AP Sona in GD, people would be like "wtf are you talking, Sona can only be played as a support, get over it", but if i had a section where i could post MY idea that I came up with, without having to listen to all the thrash-talking, then it would be more accepted.
EDIT: Some people just don't like copying professional players all day every day.
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your options arent limited to copying professional players and playing terrible builds like AP sona
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Exactly, so why should look at unconventional strategies as something bad? It is bad for higher levels of play, but to those who create it, it works and maybe someone will come up with some serious OP-batshit like Lanewick back in the days (if you've read the story about the guy who claims to have "invented" it, you will get it).
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there are plenty of shit that isn't fotm and isn't bad at higher levels of play, thats the sort of shit you can theorycraft for champions you enjoy, but almost nobody does
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Well, i get why nobody does it here on team liquid, cus everytime someone has tried to show something, they would get bashed really really hard.
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ive been spreading word of the garen for a while now and nobody dares but put their faith in the light
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On February 20 2014 02:28 Sponkz wrote:
Because that's how you do it, in this game. You look at pro's and con's, match-ups, item-builds, masteries, runes, scaling etc. and it all comes down to math (and how you play in-game).
EDIT: Like a conclusion to Sarah Bryant (sorry for repeating this example, but the issue has been adressed) and her WW build would be:
Works in lower tier play
Extremely fun to play
Good AS scaling while providing supression
And after she has said what needs to be said, you can go into a game and try it and give your feedback, maybe she got some of the numbers wrong etc. and from there you slowly work your way up to a point where it's "viable".
There are just two different types of discussions:
1) The viability one, in which you bring up strengths and weaknesses with the constitutive goal winning.
and
2) The fun one, in which you discuss why something is fun to play.
It makes no sense to discuss, for instance, match-up viability, or which item build is best against x, if you play the language game of aiming at fun. (Edit: It makes perfect sense though too discuss which builds are fun because of what) Most of the problems with controversial picks in the general discussion happen because one does not clearly indicate which language game one is playing.
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<3 Sponkz
Don't worry about the inhouses, I don't care that much if you play serious or not, as long as you're there!
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On February 20 2014 02:55 Prog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2014 02:28 Sponkz wrote:
Because that's how you do it, in this game. You look at pro's and con's, match-ups, item-builds, masteries, runes, scaling etc. and it all comes down to math (and how you play in-game).
EDIT: Like a conclusion to Sarah Bryant (sorry for repeating this example, but the issue has been adressed) and her WW build would be:
Works in lower tier play
Extremely fun to play
Good AS scaling while providing supression
And after she has said what needs to be said, you can go into a game and try it and give your feedback, maybe she got some of the numbers wrong etc. and from there you slowly work your way up to a point where it's "viable". There are just two different types of discussions: 1) The viability one, in which you bring up strengths and weaknesses with the constitutive goal winning. and 2) The fun one, in which you discuss why something is fun to play. It makes no sense to discuss, for instance, match-up viability, or which item build is best against x, if you play the language game of aiming at fun. (Edit: It makes perfect sense though too discuss which builds are fun because of what) Most of the problems with controversial picks in the general discussion happen because one does not clearly indicate which language game one is playing.
No, you are right about that. Maybe TL should implement a feature so your skill-range would be shown and then everyone has to show a little respect for each other and respect their rank compared to others. Like when i played in a danish community on facebook, it was easy for me to get a touch with these guys (random people really, other gamers, there's a big gaming culture in Denmark thanks to Counter Strike), cus usually it was 4 guys with 1 guy who was like "the leader" of 2-3 other guys (maybe a random sometimes) and he just wouldn't respect me when i called. As a support player, you RELY SO SO SO SO MUCH on your team, unless you snowball the living shit out of bot-lane (which is FUCKING hard to do at d1-level omfg), so naturally i tried to do shot-calling. And everyone knows that sometimes, shit goes wrong, it's a game SOMEONE has to WIN and SOMEONE has to LOSE, but then people will soon turn a grudge on you (this was back when i was d3, i remember the guy clearly, cus his friend added me after the game and said in danish "what do you think"). So much fucking shit I've had to take from my team over the years, because they started the blame game, while i was just trying to win. So naturally, i started acting like i was fucking "God", and trying to FORCE people to play certain champions, based on what they would write in team-select. And sometimes, it worked, but it also failed. Over the years i quick realized why i would fail; someone on my team would start getting a grudge on somebody and from there it just snowballs into a loss. So whenever i couldn't convince people to play, i would lose really really hard and really really fast because people would start to play like a "troll". But by acting like you know EVERYTHING fucking EVERYTHING (you just start by dominating the team select with a friendly attitude, like wtf you guys have been seeing LCS players do this on stream for years) and acting like they're fucking "God", because they show confidence in their play. You can be really good mechanically, but if you fail to understand this, you might be stuck in bronze/silvergold/plat (keep in mind that over the years i've played on several accounts, i'm not proud of it, but i did it to try and get a grip of what the play was like in every tier though it was "boosting").
So yeah, that's how i got Diamond 1. When i reached d1 i realized that everybody was exactly like me, in the sense that they showed confidence and didn't give up no matter what (well some do, but they're outcasts and people bash them reguarly in all-chat) and then it became boring to me and i started looking at it differently.
EDIT: I forgot to mention, i ping and look at the minimap all the time (minimap is your best friend)
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What do you guys mean by 'the highest level of play'? Challenger tier players or LCS/Champions teams?
I think we average solo Q players can't learn much from pro teams other than a few lane matchups and tricks, LoL becomes a very different game when instant communication is involved.
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Well, you can always write your actions in team-chat, that's what i did and i know for a fact, that some other EU and DK guys do this as well (while being at a very high level of play of course). The highest level of play each individual player are able to achieve individually (solo queue). From there, you get into the LCS with the strict competitive 5v5, but let's ignore that, since those players have been giving an opportunity to be able to play under a banner and with that, there comes a lot of other things into mind like strategy thinking and what each player can actually play at a high enough level, that they will play it in LCS. That's why LCS is such a boring view sometimes, because people want to experiment before making it to the play-offs and then we get to see like the real FoTM-pool (you guys remember the statistics from s1-s2-s3?).
And that's pretty much all there is to it. With that said, I'm a fucking terrible player. It took me somewhere between 4000-5000 games to reach the second highest level the game has to offer(d1 30 LP) , and i couldn't even keep consistent, that's how hard it was. And remember i only played Nunu and Sona, those champions are fucking bat-shit easy to play lol.
Tip if you shot-call: Be humble and explain why shit went wrong, and just get over it and start focusing on something else you can do.
EDIT: And i almost forgot this http://www.lolking.net/summoner/euw/21597596
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I dont feel like theres an issue at all.
-If someones playing some wacky shit for fun and posts about it, TL LoL will giggle along and have fun with it.
-If someones trying an abstract pick and posting constructive theory and better yet evidence and results about it being legit, TL LoL will discuss its merits
The problems arise when you start posting about something being legit without the evidence/results/valid points and continue insisting its legit without providing these things. (See: Support WW) You're basically taking a wacky fun pick and just saying its legit.
Before support WW which prompted this thread, there was a very legit morgana support conversation going on.
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I'll let Sarah Bryant talk herself/himself, I'm not here to enforce any ideas, just trying to explain why people take some of the actions like they do.
EDIT: I wanted an open debate about some of the terrible attitudes that has shown their faces on this forum over the years including myself.
League of Legends is just as much a casual game to some people as it is competitive.
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Yeah no shit, i know a bronze 5 dude who owns every. fucking. skin and bought 90% of the champions with RP. Do you realise how expensive that is D:
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There is a thread for this, its called T.R.O.L.L.S for unconventional picks and whatnot
and methylone is not 5x as strong as x, sorry bud
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United States37500 Posts
After reading over this thread I guess I'll respond in some official capacity.
Sponkz, what you are looking for is essentially the TROLLS thread in the LoL Strategy subforum, like a few people have suggested already. You're free to piggie back off Monte and the NA crew's discussion and test things out for yourself on the EU servers. Most of the posters in that thread are much more "free-thinking" and are more open to eccentric picks.
In TL LoL General Discussion, I'd like to think we're open and mature enough to theorycraft (so long as it's backed by some common sense and rationale). Like Omnishroud mentioned, several posters and I were talking about support Morg last week and that is certainly not something that's mainstream yet. I don't want to beat a dead horse about support Warwick but frankly, I don't think it's viable or optimal. I've heard TROLLS talk about support Cass and even that is so many more levels more valid than a melee support with negligible poke, subpar team buff during laning phase, and zero CC until level 6.
Lastly, in regards to hostility and bashing ideas or users in General Discussion, feel free to PM me if such situations arise. I understand that several of our TL veterans are inanely abrasive and I will do my best to reel them in (except Cheep, who I can't action against when he oversteps his bounds because he's "staff" status) but for the most part, there's a line between criticism and mockery and I honestly don't think we tread into the latter that often.
Please let me know if there's anything else.
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EPT
