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On February 04 2014 23:36 Dusty wrote:
That being said, as someone who was a Jayce god in S3 and played him before he got discovered as being OP as balls
Eh, he was broken as all hell from day 1, I don't think anyone had to "discover" him. Barely any mana cost, super low cooldowns, disengage-cc-%HP magic nuke on n otherwise physical kit, in-fight and map-wide mobility, a combo that until the 4th item deals as much damage as a Nid spear... but in AoE, etc. etc.
I'm not sure how he's got that much issues mid now? I can see him struggling versus Gragas for example, or Kha'Zix if he fucks up and isolate himself, but his level 2 all-in is pretty absurd and still wrecks most squishies, with a good potential for FB if you dropped some harass at level 1 or, heavens forbid, manage to somehow hit a QE combo before jumping in.
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Jinx needs a nerf but the other ads should get some kind of buff. I don't know I like playing Jinx because I actually feel like I do damage to the tankfest but her auto range in rocket form and ultimate damage are a tad overtuned when compared to other ads. There should be some kind of middle ground there to work with.
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Hydra Jayce is where it's at.
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On February 04 2014 23:54 Dusty wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2014 23:51 Sufficiency wrote:
Maybe nowadays we should just pretend Jayce is melee and rely on his W in hammer form instead? I don't know; I think he needs some new approaches. I think he needs some buffs honestly. but Riot doesn't want to buff champions like Jayce/Ryze because the balance designers are shitheads who think that every strong champion with an "ANTI-FUN" kit needs to be nerfed into the ground for a year and a half, then reworked.
OK I think Ryze is a bit different. He is just broken from the start. Coupled with no skill shots and easy combos, you can't misplay him and he is tanky + does a lot of damage. Jayce at least takes some skill to play.
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Ryze used to be a hella shitty AP caster.
Only after that did rito decide to make him do the same amount of damage, only while being super tanky during that.
And then they were surprised he was OP or something.
Jayce was broken on release, so actually "from the start".
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Jayce was OP on release, then they nerfed him, then nobody played him competitively until around april/may (at which point it was pretty much only popular in Korea until around summertime), I was playing him mid from February, so idunno.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On February 05 2014 00:22 Dandel Ion wrote:
Ryze used to be a hella shitty AP caster.
Ryze was an OK AP caster at various points before the manatank rework era came along. They just kept changing his numbers so he kept fluctuating between WTF HE JUST ONE SHOT ME to he does nothing.
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On February 05 2014 00:35 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 00:22 Dandel Ion wrote:
Ryze used to be a hella shitty AP caster.
Ryze was an OK AP caster at various points before the manatank rework era came along. They just kept changing his numbers so he kept fluctuating between WTF HE JUST ONE SHOT ME to he does nothing.
Problem on Ryze is he's the only one with his specific itemization, so it's really hard to balance him.
Getting damage from Frozen Heart and double dipping from RoA is either completely op or absolutely useless.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
The problem is that Ryze is literally one of two champions in the game* that can't stack Tear with QWE abilities without an enemy unit nearby. That and the combination of range nerfs, Tear nerfs, and the rework of Banshee's Veil was just too much for him.
* Can you name the other?
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Baa?21248 Posts
On February 05 2014 00:52 GrandInquisitor wrote:
The problem is that Ryze is literally one of two champions in the game* that can't stack Tear with QWE abilities without an enemy unit nearby.
* Can you name the other?
That has so little to do with why Ryze is weak right now lol. Are you seriously suggesting that people like Khazix, for example, built tear because they could stack it with spamming W and E and R at nothing?
And unless you count high CD skills (which would be absurd), there are waaaay more than 2 heroes in the game that can't stack Tear without anything nearby.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
What I'm saying is that Ryze suffers (and has always suffered) from the fact that he is uniquely bad at making use of one of his best items. No other Tear-core champion has as much difficulty stacking Tear as Ryze does. This is exacerbated by the fact that Ryze is running out of good mana items to build, now that Banshee's Veil doesn't give mana any more.
On February 05 2014 00:55 mr_tolkien wrote:
Irelia ?
Can theoretically stack Tear on her W, though you probably wouldn't want to.
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I guess he was referencing either Singed or Karthus. Anivia can too (Swain can't; cd on ult too long to be optimal and Anivia can also get 2 triggers at once from her Q). Cass can, if anything her passive helps her a bunch at that.
Nidalee can since the change that makes her cougar abilities trigger it.
etc. etc.
Actually upon rereading, it feels like the problem with Tear wasn't with how fast you could stack it, but what would let you stack it. Put the mana expenditure requirement back in rather than the "cast a spell" one, and then Jayce/Nidalee/Elise can't abuse their form switching or costless abilities to stack it. Now you can undo the nerf that gimped everyone not named Kha'Zix/Jayce/Nidalee. o/
Actually it'd let Kha'Zix turbo stack it again, but people don't play him with the W poke anymore so I guess it'd be 0K?
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United States15536 Posts
On February 05 2014 00:52 GrandInquisitor wrote:
The problem is that Ryze is literally one of two champions in the game* that can't stack Tear with QWE abilities without an enemy unit nearby. That and the combination of range nerfs, Tear nerfs, and the rework of Banshee's Veil was just too much for him.
* Can you name the other?
The answer to this is whatever Champion that also ONLY has QWE that are targeted rather than self-cast, skillshot, or triggered.
I don't know the answer, but that's the formula.
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Oh it's "can't", I'm dumb.
The other is Fiddlesticks.
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I love Ryze so much. Nothing quite compares to chaining all your spells together perfectly as you 1v3 at the end of team fight with only your ridiculous vamp keeping you alive.
Yes! I am INVINCIBLE!
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On February 05 2014 00:52 GrandInquisitor wrote:
The problem is that Ryze is literally one of two champions in the game* that can't stack Tear with QWE abilities without an enemy unit nearby. That and the combination of range nerfs, Tear nerfs, and the rework of Banshee's Veil was just too much for him.
* Can you name the other?
I'm pretty sure there is no such champion.
edit: I'm pretty wrong.
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i think ryze's tear stacking issues are being overstated. while unable to stack while moving around the map, he can do it cheaply/for free and quickly in lane. the biggest reason ryze isn't played is the cumulative effect of direct nerfs to him, not itemization problems
incidentally, i strongly feel that ryze is a product of terrible terrible champion design and am happy that he's not being played, whatever the reason may be
to clarify on tear stacking, my claim isn't that ryze can keep up with, say, an ezreal. however, he is effective enough, and the final tear item late enough in his build, to have a full tear by the time he needs it
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EPT
