KeSPA President Jun Byung-Hun issued a ‘President’s Letter’ of disappointment regarding the ‘Team Dark incident’ on Nov. 25th.
Chairman Jun stated that he plans to write more ‘President’s Letters’ to fans in the future in which he precisely explains the stance of KeSPA regarding future issues as well.
Below is the full ‘President’s Letter’ about Team Dark:
On Saturday evening I received many SNS messages from E-Sports fans saying that ‘Sportsmanship in E-Sports has crumbled.’
On Sunday, after finishing a briefing for political issues, I was informed of the details regarding the game, the news reports about it, and the reaction from the community and the fans. This letter to the fans and the press contains the conclusion that KeSPA reached.
Firstly, as the President and leader of Korean E-Sports, I cannot help but express extreme disappointment about this incident.
Even though ‘Team Dark’ is not part of KeSPA and are not licensed progamers, as President and representative of Korean E-Sports I apologize to all the fans who felt irritated after the match.
As President, I feel that this incident cannot happen in the future, and KeSPA, Riot Games, and Ongamenet are discussing appropriate actions for ‘Team Dark,’ and the results of our discussion will be announced as soon as possible.
However, as President I have a responsibility to not just pros, but Korean E-Sports as a whole. I believe that a new system should be created in which amateurs are able to shoot for higher challenges, and this system should not create a situation in which the passion of the amateurs can be broken.
E-Sports’s greatest strength that other sports lack, in my opinion, is ‘open opportunity.’
The World Championship is a worldwide festival for all the fans who enjoy League of Legends. All those who enjoy playing LoL should have a shot at the title.
Though a team may not be pro, if that amateur team has a passion hotter than pros, that team should be given a chance to win the World Championships, and open opportunities like this will make Korean E-Sports healthier and progress further.
KeSPA will take this bad incident as a lesson and will think about ways to revitalize teams with a system of support and promotion to create a healthy amateur scene filled with passion.
Also, we will review our current progamer licensing system as a whole.
Lastly, as President I will look forward to the day when the ‘Amateur’s Passion’ overcomes the ‘Pro’s Experience.’
team dark played a cloudtemplar (currently on the casting desk at ogn) tribute comp of 5 junglers in game 2 of their group stage set against samsung ozone. they were out of group stages at that point, and ozone all but guaranteed to go through, so their reasoning was that they had leeway to fool around and entertain the fans given that this was a rubber match.
they knew that there would be backlash. its pretty implicit in korean gaming culture. they clearly didn't give enough of a fuck or didn't think it through very well, but its not career-endingly bad backlash like apdo's case.
are you joking? corsair dweb in PvT as "not unheard of"? that game was as clear as a joke game as BW games have ever gone and people LOVED it. both players already failed to qualify for the next rounds so it was a pure game of formality and Pusan took the opportunity to do a fun joke strat and Hiya responded in kind with his own troll shit. what the fuck's the difference? this team already failed to move on and the game was pure formality, so they decided to do a joke game. where's the difference?
"Sportsmanship in E-Sports has crumbled" because of one joke game that made use of a game of pure formality? now that's a fucking joke.
edit: it wasn't Hiya vs Pusan - I'm trying to find out exactly which game it was
note the repeated references to 'korean esports' and the 'world championships' - now that korean gaming is receiving international attention on a level that makes bw look niche, appearances are taken much more seriously
If you don't make these kids sign contracts that say they can't do this then you leave yourself open to the risk of it. Make the contract state they will not earn any money from competing if they break the rules.
I mean it's fucking "We Came to Slay the Peasants" we are talking about here. Apdo's team. Am I the only one not surprised (and actually glad) that this happened? I have no sympathy for all these butthurt koreans saying this is such a bad thing.
I don't see the last place team in the NBA trolling because they aren't going to make the playoffs I FUCKING WONDER WHY HMMMMMMM. Could it be because the NBA didn't let an amateur team of street basketball players from Rucker Park play in the NBA? Could it be perhaps because the players are expected to perform by their organization? I could go on and on.
Isn't the moral of the story "don't provide useless games"?
You want a bunch of people to play to win? The best way of doing that is making sure they have an incentive to do so. If your tournament format doesn't have meaningless games or kingmaker games then this shit is much much less likely to happen.
On November 26 2013 17:12 scrubtastic wrote: Isn't the moral of the story "don't provide useless games"?
You want a bunch of people to play to win? The best way of doing that is making sure they have an incentive to do so. If your tournament format doesn't have meaningless games or kingmaker games then this shit is much much less likely to happen.
Make a better tournament format please
you didnt read. The games werent pointless because the seeding wasn't decided. They could have advanced in theory
KeSPA President Jun Byung-Hun issued a ‘President’s Letter’ of disappointment regarding the ‘Team Dark incident’ on Nov. 25th.
Chairman Jun stated that he plans to write more ‘President’s Letters’ to fans in the future in which he precisely explains the stance of KeSPA regarding future issues as well.
Below is the full ‘President’s Letter’ about Team Dark:
On Saturday evening I received many SNS messages from E-Sports fans saying that ‘Sportsmanship in E-Sports has crumbled.’
...On Sunday, after finishing a briefing for political issues,...+ Show Spoiler +
I was informed of the details regarding the game, the news reports about it, and the reaction from the community and the fans. This letter to the fans and the press contains the conclusion that KeSPA reached.
Firstly, as the President and leader of Korean E-Sports, I cannot help but express extreme disappointment about this incident.
Even though ‘Team Dark’ is not part of KeSPA and are not licensed progamers, as President and representative of Korean E-Sports I apologize to all the fans who felt irritated after the match.
As President, I feel that this incident cannot happen in the future, and KeSPA, Riot Games, and Ongamenet are discussing appropriate actions for ‘Team Dark,’ and the results of our discussion will be announced as soon as possible.
However, as President I have a responsibility to not just pros, but Korean E-Sports as a whole.I believe that a new system should be created in which amateurs are able to shoot for higher challenges, and this system should not create a situation in which the passion of the amateurs can be broken.
E-Sports’s greatest strength that other sports lack, in my opinion, is ‘open opportunity.’
The World Championship is a worldwide festival for all the fans who enjoy League of Legends. All those who enjoy playing LoL should have a shot at the title.
Though a team may not be pro, if that amateur team has a passion hotter than pros, that team should be given a chance to win the World Championships, and open opportunities like this will make Korean E-Sports healthier and progress further.
KeSPA will take this bad incident as a lesson and will think about ways to revitalize teams with a system of support and promotion to create a healthy amateur scene filled with passion.
Also, we will review our current progamer licensing system as a whole.
Lastly, as President I will look forward to the day when the ‘Amateur’s Passion’ overcomes the ‘Pro’s Experience.’
Translated by jpak
just casually mentions his Sunday political briefings. power move.
controversy aside I think it's interesting he talked so much about esports being a more open and amateur teams having more opportunities for the world championship.
I leave this to bad tourney format. Don't have players play pointless matches if you don't want this shit to happen. Having memorable match for a team that can't progress is actually the best financial move, cuz at least they get more name exposure.
On November 26 2013 18:50 wei2coolman wrote: I leave this to bad tourney format. Don't have players play pointless matches if you don't want this shit to happen. Having memorable match for a team that can't progress is actually the best financial move, cuz at least they get more name exposure.
and you failed to read too. Seeding wasnt decided yet for the group. Do you guys even read the posts from others?
On November 26 2013 18:50 wei2coolman wrote: I leave this to bad tourney format. Don't have players play pointless matches if you don't want this shit to happen. Having memorable match for a team that can't progress is actually the best financial move, cuz at least they get more name exposure.
and you failed to read too. Seeding wasnt decided yet for the group. Do you guys even read the posts from others?
The seeding for Dark required the worse teams in qualifiers 2:0 established teams for a chance of Dark going through. If that's what I recall. Very very unlikely
On November 26 2013 15:36 koreasilver wrote: are you joking? corsair dweb in PvT as "not unheard of"? that game was as clear as a joke game as BW games have ever gone and people LOVED it. both players already failed to qualify for the next rounds so it was a pure game of formality and Pusan took the opportunity to do a fun joke strat and Hiya responded in kind with his own troll shit. what the fuck's the difference? this team already failed to move on and the game was pure formality, so they decided to do a joke game. where's the difference?
"Sportsmanship in E-Sports has crumbled" because of one joke game that made use of a game of pure formality? now that's a fucking joke.
edit: it wasn't Hiya vs Pusan - I'm trying to find out exactly which game it was
edit2: Pusan vs. go.go 2009-12-11
Nope, not joking. corsair dweb has been used several times, especially in PvT. Dragoon sair has been a strong all-in timing if prepared correctly. I remember a handful of games with corsair PvT, there are probably more. It's definitely not the norm and easy to beat if scouted, but I'd put the viability on a similar level as Deep Six.
If both players were out that changes things a bit. Ozone wasn't out of it and they were trying their best to win to get more points. It's a lot less fun when 1 team is trying and 1 isn't. So there's the difference for ya. Oh, and did you ignore the part where I said LoL is more mainstream right now?
These type of games might be fun for you, but not for many others and especially so for sponsors.
I can attest to DWeb-Goon being a legitimate strategy. fOru was known for stomping Terran's out of nowhere with it on the Gamei ladder back in the day (there's an infamous replay of him against Sync).
yeah saw it but was watching HIMYM and wanted to translate it later
they also are banned from NLB Winter, lose their prizemoney for OGN Winter Ro16 and all the remaining games with Team Dark in it will end with a 15 Teamkill score for the other team
Team Dark's punishment: 1) Disqualified from OGN and NLB this season. TD will not play any more matches. 1a) Team Dark v. Alienware = Alienware win by default 2) All games played this season are deleted from official records. The opposing teams will be given a compensatory made-up in-game stats: Each team will have a 15K/0D/15A and each individuals will be given 3K/0D/3A for games played against Team Dark. AA will get this record as well. 3) TD will not get any monetary awards; they forfeit prize for being a Ro16 team.
Well I remember that game with Team Dark was lame as fuck. I tuned in and then closed the stream 5 minutes later as it was completely pointless to watch. That game should not have happened like that. The punishment seems pretty harsh though. If it is a just ruling depends on how well made OGN clear in advance that such behavior is not tolerated imo.
The punishment seems to be aimed at setting an example. It doesn't really fit the "crime" in my opinion. The intent doesen't seem to have been malicious and it reminds me more of the MLG Rayleigh incident last year. Dignitas and Curse went ARAM one game, because they thought it would be fun.
Naninwa is different in my opinion because he outright didn't want to play and just suicided to his opponent. He even allegedly removed his hands from the keyboard after sending the probes in.
The overall problem is that you're basically punishing players for playing badly. As long as they admit that what they did was done on purpose all is fine. But what do you do when they claim to have executed a bad pocket strat? And what do you do when it appears that they are blatantly lying to you? This might become a slippery slope. In my opinion the respective teams and their fans should punish the players for their behaviour and not Kespa.
The overall problem is that you're basically punishing players for playing badly. As long as they admit that what they did was done on purpose all is fine. But what do you do when they claim to have executed a bad pocket strat? And what do you do when it appears that they are blatantly lying to you?
Had a long discussion with a friend on whether the TPA retirement game with the tribute to their worlds win should be looked at as trolling and be punished (hint: its one of the coolest things I've ever seen). We came to the conclusion that the best way really is just an arbitrary decision on whether the game was enjoyed by a majority of viewers. Nestea vs Naniwa clearly wasn't, TPA's retirement game was. I'm not sure what the general reaction to this 5 junglers thing was.
On November 26 2013 19:52 justiceknight wrote: from Kleague facebook
Team Dark's punishment: 1) Disqualified from OGN and NLB this season. TD will not play any more matches. 1a) Team Dark v. Alienware = Alienware win by default 2) All games played this season are deleted from official records. The opposing teams will be given a compensatory made-up in-game stats: Each team will have a 15K/0D/15A and each individuals will be given 3K/0D/3A for games played against Team Dark. AA will get this record as well. 3) TD will not get any monetary awards; they forfeit prize for being a Ro16 team.
On November 26 2013 13:16 Navi wrote: they knew that there would be backlash. its pretty implicit in korean gaming culture. they clearly didn't give enough of a fuck or didn't think it through very well, but its not career-endingly bad backlash like apdo's case.
Slightly off topic, but what happened in Apdo's case? I wasn't aware he used to be a proplayer.
On November 26 2013 13:16 Navi wrote: they knew that there would be backlash. its pretty implicit in korean gaming culture. they clearly didn't give enough of a fuck or didn't think it through very well, but its not career-endingly bad backlash like apdo's case.
Slightly off topic, but what happened in Apdo's case? I wasn't aware he used to be a proplayer.
On November 26 2013 13:16 Navi wrote: they knew that there would be backlash. its pretty implicit in korean gaming culture. they clearly didn't give enough of a fuck or didn't think it through very well, but its not career-endingly bad backlash like apdo's case.
Slightly off topic, but what happened in Apdo's case? I wasn't aware he used to be a proplayer.
elo boosted and started messing with the e-sport groupies, got busted shortly after.
Mh well team dark might have been the sacrificial lamb or something, but it's nice to see OGN/KeSPA/Riot set an example together. I guess the team was destined to get gutted anyway. The player individually don't suffer any punishments, do they? Just the team?
If the seeding wasn't finished then yeah, they should be punished since it screws things up for other teams that aren't themselves. I suppose the main difference is that even if Pusan was using a "fun" troll strat, he at least did try to win with it, and they were both knocked out of the tournament anyway.
and for god's sake citing foru's gamei games does not make dweb PvT relevent in 2009. those are from COMPLETELY different eras. it would be like saying 1base TvZ is legit because Boxer won with it vs Yellow in 2002 or something. and I don't care how contrarian and hipster you try to be, but dweb PvT in 2009 was a completely troll thing that hasn't been seen for YEARS prior to it in a professional game, and never after it until the end of televised BW.
The majority of the Korean community is siding with KeSPA on this one. But it's not necessarily because of a "e-Sports is serious in Korea" mentality, although there's no denying that KeSPA is pretty strict on professionalism. But another reason why the community is supporting KeSPA's decision is because of personal reasons. A lot of people hate Team Dark. While Apdo got the main spotlight for being a tool, it wasn't just him who ELO boosted and flamed people in Solo Q. Pretty much everyone in Team Dark were extremely toxic players. People compared TSM's troll games to this, but the difference is that TSM has a huge fan base and had they been punished, the NA community would have revolted, which may or may not have some bearing on sanctions against them. But Team Dark had nothing going for them, yet still chose to do this. They were essentially on probation, just not an official one.
Also, a lot of people are downplaying the importance of these matches. 1) Team Dark was not eliminated from advancing. As slim as their chances were, one would expect a team in a professional tournament to give it their best if they had a chance of advancing. 2) Even if they were eliminated, their games still do matter unlike a lot of the examples cited by some posters here. Because how they do against their opponents can affect the placements of the other teams in the same group as Team Dark. Not to mention the additional bonus payouts for highest KDA in OGN.
IMO the punishment was completely justified. I really hope that the same people who (legitimately) complain about e-sports not being taken seriously enough are not the same people trying to dismiss this incident as 'just a bit of harmless fun'. If a similar incident happened in, say, the English Premier League, or the NFL, it would be a massive scandal. The Korean e-sports scene has already had enough problems with thrown games and fixed matches as it is. I also don't know why people are saying that Dark were already out; maybe my math is off, but as far as I can tell they still had a (very slim) chance of qualifying depending on other results.
By throwing a competitive fixture like this, they are essentially disrespecting the integrity of the competition. There have been troll games before, but as I recall, those were only when the final standings were already completely decided. Blaming the tournament structure is a poor excuse - there are always going to be uncompetitive games in a league structure. That doesn't give teams the right to blatantly throw games.
I think the punishment is justified. I would've been fine with their joke comp but at one point about four minutes in they just stopped trying and devolved to intentional feeding and mass warding their own base. If they picked that comp and ran semi-standard lanes and actually attempted to try and didn't sell all their items to mass ward their base I think the reaction would've been a lot more reserved.
Especially since Ozone's seeding wasn't determined and Team Dark wasn't actually eliminated yet.
Translated by paynejiwon on reddit Mid laner plls from Team Dark gives his side of the story:
"Before the game started, we asked the judges inside the booth if we were allowed to troll pick. The judges said it did not matter. How would we, players who had just arrived an hour earlier to get our make up done for broadcasting, know the rules that even the judges did not know? If the judges had replied that there would be sanctions, we would never have played out the troll game. We were not very eager to go on beyond the best of 16 and we had achieved our initial goal. Moreover, had there been a forfeit option we would have taken it, however the Producer called and told us that he would sue us if we did not come for the profile shooting or the actual game. Two of our teammates don't live in Seoul and it took them four hours and transportation costs that OGN did not provide for them..." (mentions teammates facebook post about the event, kind of irrelevant imo) "I would like to ask one question to OGN: Had we been told that we would be punished, we would never have acted accordingly. How would players know the rules that even the judges were unaware of ?"
Funny how some interpret it as judges allowed TD to troll in that game, when the literal translation implies that they were allowed to pick those 5 champions.
Sure, they won't tell you that you'll get punished in the first place if you guys just wanted to pick those 5 champions and play seriously. Never told the judges that you wanted to troll on purpose.
That excuse sounds like a cop-out to me. First of all, what on Earth are they doing competing in OGN if they aren't even interested in going beyond the Ro16? It sucks that OGN didn't provide any of the transportation costs, but let's face it: all they had to do was ride out the rest of the relatively short season, and collect the prize money for finishing at the bottom of the table, with potentially more rewards from NLB. I'd rather they just not compete at all and offer up their spot to a team who are willing to deal with the modest travel arrangements (I've made the Seoul-Busan day trip a couple of times, Korea's just not really that big) in order to compete in arguably the strongest domestic LoL competition in the world. Look at what Gambit go through.
Besides that, as many people have said, the problem wasn't necessarily the troll picks. The problem was that they clearly had no strategy and no desire to win. Regardless of what the OGN judges may have told them, what kind of team decides to throw a game so obviously, especially one that can affect the outcome of the group? Practically speaking, if they were smart, they would have been a little more subtle, but instead they were incredibly dumb and made a farce of the whole thing. Pretty disgusting behavior if you ask me. I'd throw in a few bans on top of their existing punishment.
On November 27 2013 20:04 krndandaman wrote: ^ to be fair tho, the travelling part is all relative. for me as well, going from seoul to busan and back from busan to seoul wasn't that bad either. just 2 hours on KTX. coming home from college is 5 hours for me back in the USA. but people in korea seem to feel that it's a really long travel and hassle, especially those who don't know seoul well.
I remember getting kinda disappointed by some friends who I had to beg for to come out from just ulsan/daejeon to seoul to visit me. they said that the travel is way too long and seoul confuses them. didn't understand at first but there are people who go travel 2hours maybe only once or twice per year in korea.
Yeah, that's true I guess. Still, it's pretty pathetic of them to complain about the travel issue, when they only had three games to play in the group stages (six max if they made it to the final). I mean, I teach students who make a two hour commute (one way) on a daily basis. This is the most prestigious LoL tournament in Korea and one of the most competitive leagues in the world we're talking about, and IIRC they only managed to sneak a spot because of a favourable draw. It just boggles my mind.
On November 27 2013 20:04 krndandaman wrote: ^ to be fair tho, the travelling part is all relative. for me as well, going from seoul to busan and back from busan to seoul wasn't that bad either. just 2 hours on KTX. coming home from college is 5 hours for me back in the USA. but people in korea seem to feel that it's a really long travel and hassle, especially those who don't know seoul well.
I remember getting kinda disappointed by some friends who I had to beg for to come out from just ulsan/daejeon to seoul to visit me. they said that the travel is way too long and seoul confuses them. didn't understand at first but there are people who go travel 2hours maybe only once or twice per year in korea.
Yeah, that's true I guess. Still, it's pretty pathetic of them to complain about the travel issue, when they only had three games to play in the group stages (six max if they made it to the final). I mean, I teach students who make a two hour commute (one way) on a daily basis. This is the most prestigious LoL tournament in Korea and one of the most competitive leagues in the world we're talking about, and IIRC they only managed to sneak a spot because of a favourable draw. It just boggles my mind.
Yup, I believe they played against team Mook? Someone of that caliber at least, while KTA, IM, Xenics, Alienwares all knocked each other out (not sure about Alienware's caliber of play though).
On November 27 2013 16:08 Jindo wrote: Translated by paynejiwon on reddit Mid laner plls from Team Dark gives his side of the story:
"Before the game started, we asked the judges inside the booth if we were allowed to troll pick. The judges said it did not matter. How would we, players who had just arrived an hour earlier to get our make up done for broadcasting, know the rules that even the judges did not know? If the judges had replied that there would be sanctions, we would never have played out the troll game. We were not very eager to go on beyond the best of 16 and we had achieved our initial goal. Moreover, had there been a forfeit option we would have taken it, however the Producer called and told us that he would sue us if we did not come for the profile shooting or the actual game. Two of our teammates don't live in Seoul and it took them four hours and transportation costs that OGN did not provide for them..." (mentions teammates facebook post about the event, kind of irrelevant imo) "I would like to ask one question to OGN: Had we been told that we would be punished, we would never have acted accordingly. How would players know the rules that even the judges were unaware of ?"
Frankly that is an idiotic excuse. Yes you are allowed to troll pick most likely. If you run whatever non-standard comp you want and try your hardest no caster would complain. They might say something like "maybe they should have picked standard" but there would be no reason to discuss consequences.
Instead they picked a troll comp and then did their level best to throw the game. their multiple smites had no role at all (they could have tried to invade red and blue at the same time to use them) they didn't even try to cs and they spent more time throwing wards than defending their towers.
Concerning the travel time, maybe that is something they should have considered before they tried to qualify for the tournament. It isn't a secret where OGN is being played...
On November 27 2013 16:08 Jindo wrote: Translated by paynejiwon on reddit Mid laner plls from Team Dark gives his side of the story:
"Before the game started, we asked the judges inside the booth if we were allowed to troll pick. The judges said it did not matter. How would we, players who had just arrived an hour earlier to get our make up done for broadcasting, know the rules that even the judges did not know? If the judges had replied that there would be sanctions, we would never have played out the troll game. We were not very eager to go on beyond the best of 16 and we had achieved our initial goal. Moreover, had there been a forfeit option we would have taken it, however the Producer called and told us that he would sue us if we did not come for the profile shooting or the actual game. Two of our teammates don't live in Seoul and it took them four hours and transportation costs that OGN did not provide for them..." (mentions teammates facebook post about the event, kind of irrelevant imo) "I would like to ask one question to OGN: Had we been told that we would be punished, we would never have acted accordingly. How would players know the rules that even the judges were unaware of ?"
Frankly that is an idiotic excuse. Yes you are allowed to troll pick most likely. If you run whatever non-standard comp you want and try your hardest no caster would complain. They might say something like "maybe they should have picked standard" but there would be no reason to discuss consequences.
Instead they picked a troll comp and then did their level best to throw the game. their multiple smites had no role at all (they could have tried to invade red and blue at the same time to use them) they didn't even try to cs and they spent more time throwing wards than defending their towers.
Concerning the travel time, maybe that is something they should have considered before they tried to qualify for the tournament. It isn't a secret where OGN is being played...
They should argue that they're really bad players and can't play any better imo.
In fact, if they really had no intentions to advance at all (I doubt this) and just wanted the Ro16 money they should have just played like utter garbage in all games. Then it would have looked like they're trying to do some special taktiks and just failing normally.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OlJ0WCA.jpg?1)
