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On August 27 2013 11:21 MoonBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 10:27 PrinceXizor wrote:
I've come around pretty heavily toward hybrid penetration marks and Arpen Quints Armor/level seals and mres/lvl and a few mana regen glyphs. Then grabbing Wits end + bruta + last whisper. it FEELS like it hits his timing more smoothly and it feels like you are killing stuff at the right times and rates. I don't often come in and play heavy-handed moderation when it comes to theorycraft but this is irritating me - Never ever say that Armour/lvl Seals work in bot lane or for a matter of fact in almost every lane except where both players agree 20 min no harass. In fact, if anyone ever recommends Armour/lvl Seals again I am going to mod-action them. There is room for customising rune pages in LoL, but this is something you absolutely do not compromise on.
- The MPen component of Hybrid Pen only works for his E. I don't think it's worth taking that and giving up AD which makes last hitting even harder and means your auto trades in lane are going to suck. Taking MPen to make Wits End even better is bad because Wits End is not great for AD Carries and trying to mitigate and build around a flaw is just fundamentally worse than actually doing something good and proactive in the first place. (This is also MtG Deck Building Rule #2.)
- Wits End is bad on AD Carries.
- Wits End It doesn't even apply on his Ult. Which means you are solely doing this to take advantage of his Passive. Which is a bad idea because point 3
- Building Wits End first item in lane is bad itemisation too. I have no idea how you plan on surviving the laning phase sitting on a Recurve Bow and Mantle and just not dying repeatedly.
:/ are you serious. thats pretty dumb overall moonbear. Mpen component does nothing for his E, since that doesn't deal ANY damage at all, and instead his W does magic damage, the Hybrid Penetration is useful for mid game fights when you need to be dealing damage with your W as well as everything else as lucian is as much a caster as he is an auto attacker. the 6 less arpen for more Mpen is justified when you are dealing a good third of your damage as magic damage, as you do with a wits end timing.
Lucian isn't really an AD carry. Not in the sense of how his power curve works and his strengths and weaknesses. He's a ranged AD that hits mid game timings and pushes. He definitely doesn't feel meant to "carry" the way something like a vayne or tristana does. I never suggested you rush wits end. Its just an item in the trinity of items that i build that trinity being bruta wits and and last whisper. THinking i suggested a wits end rush is more of a comprehension or explanation error than fact. I never suggested that wits end applies on his ult, in fact i believe i've explained to questioners that it doesn't.
more important than responding to moonbear, Lucians should probably be building multiple dorans blades in situations where they aren't absolutely dominating their lane as he is unlikely to be filling up on slots early.
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Baa?21245 Posts
Please deliver MoonBear we need more moderation in the heavy handed style here.
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United States23745 Posts
On August 27 2013 11:23 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 11:21 MoonBear wrote:On August 27 2013 10:27 PrinceXizor wrote:
I've come around pretty heavily toward hybrid penetration marks and Arpen Quints Armor/level seals and mres/lvl and a few mana regen glyphs. Then grabbing Wits end + bruta + last whisper. it FEELS like it hits his timing more smoothly and it feels like you are killing stuff at the right times and rates. I don't often come in and play heavy-handed moderation when it comes to theorycraft but this is irritating me - Never ever say that Armour/lvl Seals work in bot lane or for a matter of fact in almost every lane except where both players agree 20 min no harass. In fact, if anyone ever recommends Armour/lvl Seals again I am going to mod-action them. There is room for customising rune pages in LoL, but this is something you absolutely do not compromise on.
- The MPen component of Hybrid Pen only works for his E. I don't think it's worth taking that and giving up AD which makes last hitting even harder and means your auto trades in lane are going to suck. Taking MPen to make Wits End even better is bad because Wits End is not great for AD Carries and trying to mitigate and build around a flaw is just fundamentally worse than actually doing something good and proactive in the first place. (This is also MtG Deck Building Rule #2.)
- Wits End is bad on AD Carries.
- Wits End It doesn't even apply on his Ult. Which means you are solely doing this to take advantage of his Passive. Which is a bad idea because point 3
- Building Wits End first item in lane is bad itemisation too. I have no idea how you plan on surviving the laning phase sitting on a Recurve Bow and Mantle and just not dying repeatedly.
I'm sure we'll have answer as to how you're wrong fairly shortly, MB.
I literally laughed out loud.
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On August 27 2013 11:41 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 11:23 WaveofShadow wrote:On August 27 2013 11:21 MoonBear wrote:On August 27 2013 10:27 PrinceXizor wrote:
I've come around pretty heavily toward hybrid penetration marks and Arpen Quints Armor/level seals and mres/lvl and a few mana regen glyphs. Then grabbing Wits end + bruta + last whisper. it FEELS like it hits his timing more smoothly and it feels like you are killing stuff at the right times and rates. I don't often come in and play heavy-handed moderation when it comes to theorycraft but this is irritating me - Never ever say that Armour/lvl Seals work in bot lane or for a matter of fact in almost every lane except where both players agree 20 min no harass. In fact, if anyone ever recommends Armour/lvl Seals again I am going to mod-action them. There is room for customising rune pages in LoL, but this is something you absolutely do not compromise on.
- The MPen component of Hybrid Pen only works for his E. I don't think it's worth taking that and giving up AD which makes last hitting even harder and means your auto trades in lane are going to suck. Taking MPen to make Wits End even better is bad because Wits End is not great for AD Carries and trying to mitigate and build around a flaw is just fundamentally worse than actually doing something good and proactive in the first place. (This is also MtG Deck Building Rule #2.)
- Wits End is bad on AD Carries.
- Wits End It doesn't even apply on his Ult. Which means you are solely doing this to take advantage of his Passive. Which is a bad idea because point 3
- Building Wits End first item in lane is bad itemisation too. I have no idea how you plan on surviving the laning phase sitting on a Recurve Bow and Mantle and just not dying repeatedly.
I'm sure we'll have answer as to how you're wrong fairly shortly, MB. I literally laughed out loud.
the prince never disappoints
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You guys are really cruel and this is hard to read/watch.
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United States47024 Posts
This honestly makes me want to try and do something with armor/level seals just to troll Moonbear, but it's too much effort.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On August 27 2013 11:32 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 11:21 MoonBear wrote:On August 27 2013 10:27 PrinceXizor wrote:
I've come around pretty heavily toward hybrid penetration marks and Arpen Quints Armor/level seals and mres/lvl and a few mana regen glyphs. Then grabbing Wits end + bruta + last whisper. it FEELS like it hits his timing more smoothly and it feels like you are killing stuff at the right times and rates. I don't often come in and play heavy-handed moderation when it comes to theorycraft but this is irritating me - Never ever say that Armour/lvl Seals work in bot lane or for a matter of fact in almost every lane except where both players agree 20 min no harass. In fact, if anyone ever recommends Armour/lvl Seals again I am going to mod-action them. There is room for customising rune pages in LoL, but this is something you absolutely do not compromise on.
- The MPen component of Hybrid Pen only works for his E. I don't think it's worth taking that and giving up AD which makes last hitting even harder and means your auto trades in lane are going to suck. Taking MPen to make Wits End even better is bad because Wits End is not great for AD Carries and trying to mitigate and build around a flaw is just fundamentally worse than actually doing something good and proactive in the first place. (This is also MtG Deck Building Rule #2.)
- Wits End is bad on AD Carries.
- Wits End It doesn't even apply on his Ult. Which means you are solely doing this to take advantage of his Passive. Which is a bad idea because point 3
- Building Wits End first item in lane is bad itemisation too. I have no idea how you plan on surviving the laning phase sitting on a Recurve Bow and Mantle and just not dying repeatedly.
:/ are you serious. thats pretty dumb overall moonbear. Mpen component does nothing for his E, since that doesn't deal ANY damage at all, and instead his W does magic damage, the Hybrid Penetration is useful for mid game fights when you need to be dealing damage with your W as well as everything else as lucian is as much a caster as he is an auto attacker. the 6 less arpen for more Mpen is justified when you are dealing a good third of your damage as magic damage, as you do with a wits end timing. Lucian isn't really an AD carry. Not in the sense of how his power curve works and his strengths and weaknesses. He's a ranged AD that hits mid game timings and pushes. He definitely doesn't feel meant to "carry" the way something like a vayne or tristana does. I never suggested you rush wits end. Its just an item in the trinity of items that i build that trinity being bruta wits and and last whisper. THinking i suggested a wits end rush is more of a comprehension or explanation error than fact. I never suggested that wits end applies on his ult, in fact i believe i've explained to questioners that it doesn't. more important than responding to moonbear, Lucians should probably be building multiple dorans blades in situations where they aren't absolutely dominating their lane as he is unlikely to be filling up on slots early.
- Ok yeah W not E. But point still applies. Do you take Hybrid Pen on Corki or Ezreal? Both of them have more than one spell that does magic damage. (Corki Q + R and Ezreal W + E + R) They're also both casters as much as they are AD Carries. Yet no one takes Hybrid Pen on them. There's a good reason for that and it's because the MPen bonus you get is far less important than the raw AD for laning power and then getting big items to kill you opponents with.
- Then what is your Wits End timing? I can't figure out any time at which you would say to yourself "I'd really like to get a Wits End" rather than just getting almost any other item. If it's not the first item, then you've already committed to building something AD. And at this point you're committed into AD damage. Getting a Wits End dilutes that so now both your AD and Magic damage both don't hurt much against that tank charging against you because you're not stacking multipliers like Crit/AS/AD or MPen/CDR/AP to punch through cheap and effective defensive itemisation. Say you have a Bruta going into Wits End. Why did you get Bruta then? It doesn't synergise with the APen you spent money on. Even worse if you have a LW+Bruta. You want to keep stacking synergising stats and smash people's faces in, not dilute your damage output. And it's even worse if you only have Dorans because your autos will barely tickle the Udyr running at your face.
- If you're not meant to carry then what do you do? Take shots at towers? Wits End passive doesn't even apply extra damage to towers according to Wiki. Bonus AS? What does Wits End do that a Shiv or PD doesn't? Heck, why not just pick an actual AD Carry and still do exactly the same thing by building AD items and being useful? What exactly did you pick Lucian for and build him like this for? You're not carrying or taking towers in which case you're a dead-weight AD Carry.
On August 27 2013 11:28 Alaric wrote:I want answer as to how many of his detailed posts MB keeps linked in case the discussion is raised again. 
I keep a Notepad with urls of important posts to link to. Either that or I use the TL search function.
On August 27 2013 11:48 TheYango wrote:
This honestly makes me want to try and do something with armor/level seals just to troll Moonbear, but it's too much effort.
Yango pls
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On August 27 2013 11:32 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 11:21 MoonBear wrote:On August 27 2013 10:27 PrinceXizor wrote:
I've come around pretty heavily toward hybrid penetration marks and Arpen Quints Armor/level seals and mres/lvl and a few mana regen glyphs. Then grabbing Wits end + bruta + last whisper. it FEELS like it hits his timing more smoothly and it feels like you are killing stuff at the right times and rates. I don't often come in and play heavy-handed moderation when it comes to theorycraft but this is irritating me - Never ever say that Armour/lvl Seals work in bot lane or for a matter of fact in almost every lane except where both players agree 20 min no harass. In fact, if anyone ever recommends Armour/lvl Seals again I am going to mod-action them. There is room for customising rune pages in LoL, but this is something you absolutely do not compromise on.
- The MPen component of Hybrid Pen only works for his E. I don't think it's worth taking that and giving up AD which makes last hitting even harder and means your auto trades in lane are going to suck. Taking MPen to make Wits End even better is bad because Wits End is not great for AD Carries and trying to mitigate and build around a flaw is just fundamentally worse than actually doing something good and proactive in the first place. (This is also MtG Deck Building Rule #2.)
- Wits End is bad on AD Carries.
- Wits End It doesn't even apply on his Ult. Which means you are solely doing this to take advantage of his Passive. Which is a bad idea because point 3
- Building Wits End first item in lane is bad itemisation too. I have no idea how you plan on surviving the laning phase sitting on a Recurve Bow and Mantle and just not dying repeatedly.
:/ are you serious. thats pretty dumb overall moonbear. Mpen component does nothing for his E, since that doesn't deal ANY damage at all, and instead his W does magic damage, the Hybrid Penetration is useful for mid game fights when you need to be dealing damage with your W as well as everything else as lucian is as much a caster as he is an auto attacker. the 6 less arpen for more Mpen is justified when you are dealing a good third of your damage as magic damage, as you do with a wits end timing. Lucian isn't really an AD carry. Not in the sense of how his power curve works and his strengths and weaknesses. He's a ranged AD that hits mid game timings and pushes. He definitely doesn't feel meant to "carry" the way something like a vayne or tristana does. I never suggested you rush wits end. Its just an item in the trinity of items that i build that trinity being bruta wits and and last whisper. THinking i suggested a wits end rush is more of a comprehension or explanation error than fact. I never suggested that wits end applies on his ult, in fact i believe i've explained to questioners that it doesn't. more important than responding to moonbear, Lucians should probably be building multiple dorans blades in situations where they aren't absolutely dominating their lane as he is unlikely to be filling up on slots early.
Have fun with that buildup to Wits in a lane that isn't like... Corki/Leona. You're literally throwing away the advantage Lucian seems to have(laning) by building shit that will suck ass in lane, especially when you compound this fact with you having armor/lvl seals.
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MoonBear vs PX grudgematch incoming.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 27 2013 11:26 canikizu wrote:
Dude, Wits End is good on AD carries.
There are certain ADs Wit's would be good for if the item were actually better on the whole. Suffice to say, Lucian is not one of them.
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On August 27 2013 11:49 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 11:32 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 27 2013 11:21 MoonBear wrote:On August 27 2013 10:27 PrinceXizor wrote:
I've come around pretty heavily toward hybrid penetration marks and Arpen Quints Armor/level seals and mres/lvl and a few mana regen glyphs. Then grabbing Wits end + bruta + last whisper. it FEELS like it hits his timing more smoothly and it feels like you are killing stuff at the right times and rates. I don't often come in and play heavy-handed moderation when it comes to theorycraft but this is irritating me - Never ever say that Armour/lvl Seals work in bot lane or for a matter of fact in almost every lane except where both players agree 20 min no harass. In fact, if anyone ever recommends Armour/lvl Seals again I am going to mod-action them. There is room for customising rune pages in LoL, but this is something you absolutely do not compromise on.
- The MPen component of Hybrid Pen only works for his E. I don't think it's worth taking that and giving up AD which makes last hitting even harder and means your auto trades in lane are going to suck. Taking MPen to make Wits End even better is bad because Wits End is not great for AD Carries and trying to mitigate and build around a flaw is just fundamentally worse than actually doing something good and proactive in the first place. (This is also MtG Deck Building Rule #2.)
- Wits End is bad on AD Carries.
- Wits End It doesn't even apply on his Ult. Which means you are solely doing this to take advantage of his Passive. Which is a bad idea because point 3
- Building Wits End first item in lane is bad itemisation too. I have no idea how you plan on surviving the laning phase sitting on a Recurve Bow and Mantle and just not dying repeatedly.
:/ are you serious. thats pretty dumb overall moonbear. Mpen component does nothing for his E, since that doesn't deal ANY damage at all, and instead his W does magic damage, the Hybrid Penetration is useful for mid game fights when you need to be dealing damage with your W as well as everything else as lucian is as much a caster as he is an auto attacker. the 6 less arpen for more Mpen is justified when you are dealing a good third of your damage as magic damage, as you do with a wits end timing. Lucian isn't really an AD carry. Not in the sense of how his power curve works and his strengths and weaknesses. He's a ranged AD that hits mid game timings and pushes. He definitely doesn't feel meant to "carry" the way something like a vayne or tristana does. I never suggested you rush wits end. Its just an item in the trinity of items that i build that trinity being bruta wits and and last whisper. THinking i suggested a wits end rush is more of a comprehension or explanation error than fact. I never suggested that wits end applies on his ult, in fact i believe i've explained to questioners that it doesn't. more important than responding to moonbear, Lucians should probably be building multiple dorans blades in situations where they aren't absolutely dominating their lane as he is unlikely to be filling up on slots early. Have fun with that buildup to Wits in a lane that isn't like... Corki/Leona. You're literally throwing away the advantage Lucian seems to have(laning) by building shit that will suck ass in lane, especially when you compound this fact with you having armor/lvl seals.
Brutalizer actually gives you more damage than other AD items. The buildup isn't that bad.
It's still the late game I'd be worried about. Brutalizer falls off fast and many people don't turn it into anything and just sell it :/
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United States23745 Posts
On August 27 2013 11:47 Aukai wrote:
You guys are really cruel and this is hard to read/watch.
This isn't even that bad, at least MoonBear has a detailed argument instead of him just calling PX shit. Honestly this has been pretty civil so far.
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On August 27 2013 11:54 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 11:47 Aukai wrote:
You guys are really cruel and this is hard to read/watch. This isn't even that bad, at least MoonBear has a detailed argument instead of him just calling PX shit. Honestly this has been pretty civil so far.
Oh no i don't have an issue with how moonbear handled this. apart from invoking mod powers to anyone who disagrees with him, that was rather poor form. intimidation is never a way to actually have a good discussion.
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On August 27 2013 11:50 Seuss wrote:
MoonBear vs PX grudgematch incoming.
I'm sliver one and after reading wits ends on marksmen, it made me give a confused face and want to post something that disagreed with him only for it to lead into a grudge match. Hopefully resulting in me stomping him into the ground and TL LoL raising me up on their shoulders as the hero that came and silenced the evil.
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On August 27 2013 11:52 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 11:26 canikizu wrote:
Dude, Wits End is good on AD carries.
There are certain ADs Wit's would be good for if the item were actually better on the whole. Suffice to say, Lucian is not one of them.
If it gave 8% more AS, and 8 more damage on the passive for the same price, I could see it being an easy 3rd item on Kog vs double AP comps. It DOESN'T have those stats however, so I recommend it on NOBODY.
On August 27 2013 11:57 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 11:54 onlywonderboy wrote:On August 27 2013 11:47 Aukai wrote:
You guys are really cruel and this is hard to read/watch. This isn't even that bad, at least MoonBear has a detailed argument instead of him just calling PX shit. Honestly this has been pretty civil so far. Oh no i don't have an issue with how moonbear handled this. apart from invoking mod powers to anyone who disagrees with him, that was rather poor form. intimidation is never a way to actually have a good discussion.
Well it's only a written threat, you could always test him and see if he means what he types. I mean, how else do you know if he is serious?
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i mean do you even have any evidence of doing wits end lucian and winning multiple times in ranked games to even show for yourself
its just talk and more talk and empty ideas
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On August 27 2013 11:57 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 11:54 onlywonderboy wrote:On August 27 2013 11:47 Aukai wrote:
You guys are really cruel and this is hard to read/watch. This isn't even that bad, at least MoonBear has a detailed argument instead of him just calling PX shit. Honestly this has been pretty civil so far. Oh no i don't have an issue with how moonbear handled this. apart from invoking mod powers to anyone who disagrees with him, that was rather poor form. intimidation is never a way to actually have a good discussion.
Armor/lvl runes have been discussed already and thoroughly disproved as being any good when in context to laning. It's annoying for lots of readers to have to re-read the same useless discussion that has been talked about to death already just like Elo hell came up every page or gold for 10 items etc... At some point the mods have to put their foot down, lucky enough the LoL mods are a lot kinder than the Starcraft counter parts when it comes to punishment and banning people for bad posts.
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On August 27 2013 11:57 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 11:54 onlywonderboy wrote:On August 27 2013 11:47 Aukai wrote:
You guys are really cruel and this is hard to read/watch. This isn't even that bad, at least MoonBear has a detailed argument instead of him just calling PX shit. Honestly this has been pretty civil so far. Oh no i don't have an issue with how moonbear handled this. apart from invoking mod powers to anyone who disagrees with him, that was rather poor form. intimidation is never a way to actually have a good discussion.
its to bring some freaking order into here, because recently this reads like release SC2 forum.
Its also the same reason why we dont argue wether 0.99... is equal to 1 or not. Because there is one wrong opinion and one that is right.
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11589 Posts
I'd rather have BOTRK over Wits on any AD that wants some kind of on-hit damage. 5% of health > MR Steal and Magic Damage. Hence, bork on lucian is pretty good.
Plus, BOTRK is the same atksp (IIRC) and lifesteal > MR as a defensive stat on anyone who builds AD.
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On August 27 2013 12:01 FinestHour wrote:
i mean do you even have any evidence of doing wits end lucian and winning multiple times in ranked games to even show for yourself
its just talk and more talk and empty ideas
Many of the mobafire guides list 21-2 games and show videos where they roflstomp nasus/ryze/vayne/amumu's while duoing with Hotshot. Even here, I seem to recall someone posting score screens that were like 15-2 that advocated pd Hecarim or Frozen mallet Sejuani.
Score screens are fairly easy to game. I agree it's best to try things out if you're going to defend them.
On August 27 2013 12:07 LaNague wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 11:57 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 27 2013 11:54 onlywonderboy wrote:On August 27 2013 11:47 Aukai wrote:
You guys are really cruel and this is hard to read/watch. This isn't even that bad, at least MoonBear has a detailed argument instead of him just calling PX shit. Honestly this has been pretty civil so far. Oh no i don't have an issue with how moonbear handled this. apart from invoking mod powers to anyone who disagrees with him, that was rather poor form. intimidation is never a way to actually have a good discussion. its to bring some freaking order into here, because recently this reads like release SC2 forum. Its also the same reason why we dont argue wether 0.99... is equal to 1 or not. Because there is one wrong opinion and one that is right.
It isn't. You're off by .01
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EPT
