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On August 01 2013 08:40 PrinceXizor wrote:
Riot needs to stop generating their own hype. Asmos comment about dotas hype is right. Things are just DONE in dota. we don't get alerted of the patch until its out. Heroes just COme out with no warning. Riot tried to control and generate all their own hype, and it leaves the community pretty left out unless they follow the riot train. For instance there is no LoL channel that compares to how good DotaCinema is. there is no hype surrounding releases of patches, because its expectd that riot tells everyone whats in it beforehand, so when it comes out everyone is just thinking, yeah, thats what we had expected.
D=
Dota has "patch hype" because Valve doesn't ever hype patches?
No no, I get it, but it's funny.
Press over time >>>>>>>>> unannounced press. It may "explode" more, but longer lead-ins mean overall further input, press and discussion.
I mean, if Half Life episode 3 gets released tomorrow I'm sure it'll explode. Won't make one tenth as much profit as it would with announcements, pre-sales, previews, etc, but I'm sure it'll do ok.
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You know I bought that stuff a few years ago, when everyone from sc scene was saying riot was going to run their ship into the ground, the game would die quickly, the e-sports side of things were being managed awful(god did I have issues with their tournament structure etc) but I just don't feel it's got a single grain of truth to it given how things have played out since 2010 and I saw riot run wcg and s1 champs awful, yet here we are now, and things are looking really really really good.
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United States37500 Posts
On August 01 2013 08:48 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 08:46 Ketara wrote:On August 01 2013 08:44 NeoIllusions wrote:On August 01 2013 08:40 PrinceXizor wrote:
Riot needs to stop generating their own hype. Asmos comment about dotas hype is right. Things are just DONE in dota. we don't get alerted of the patch until its out. Heroes just COme out with no warning. Riot tried to control and generate all their own hype, and it leaves the community pretty left out unless they follow the riot train. For instance there is no LoL channel that compares to how good DotaCinema is. there is no hype surrounding releases of patches, because its expectd that riot tells everyone whats in it beforehand, so when it comes out everyone is just thinking, yeah, thats what we had expected. wtf... If you want to bitch about balance I mean, whatever. But if you want to say Riot is bad at managing its community like, what? srs? I'm saying riot shouldn't be managing its community as much as it is. its hard to find an aspect of the lol community that isn't guided entirely by riot. thats bad. its bad for long term growth and its bad for the pro scene.
The only people that I ever hear this from are from Dota players.
Pretty sure most of us are ok with how Riot runs things. From a spectrum of Blizzard to Riot, I'll take Riot.
Edit: I also want to say that your patch note example is pretty damn bad. Why is a preview of upcoming shit ever a bad thing? @_@
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On August 01 2013 08:48 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 08:46 Ketara wrote:On August 01 2013 08:44 NeoIllusions wrote:On August 01 2013 08:40 PrinceXizor wrote:
Riot needs to stop generating their own hype. Asmos comment about dotas hype is right. Things are just DONE in dota. we don't get alerted of the patch until its out. Heroes just COme out with no warning. Riot tried to control and generate all their own hype, and it leaves the community pretty left out unless they follow the riot train. For instance there is no LoL channel that compares to how good DotaCinema is. there is no hype surrounding releases of patches, because its expectd that riot tells everyone whats in it beforehand, so when it comes out everyone is just thinking, yeah, thats what we had expected. wtf... If you want to bitch about balance I mean, whatever. But if you want to say Riot is bad at managing its community like, what? srs? I'm saying riot shouldn't be managing its community as much as it is. its hard to find an aspect of the lol community that isn't guided entirely by riot. thats bad. its bad for long term growth and its bad for the pro scene.
Could you explain how it's bad for the pro scene?
Riot has always had extremely close community interaction and it is the most played game in the world and the most watched eSport in the world... and OGN has adapted it as its flagship eSport after Brood War ended...
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xizor hype train pulling in, choo choo.
On August 01 2013 08:44 vvSiegvv wrote:
I guess I just disagree with you. It's very possible to set a precedent without limiting yourself to a timetable. I understand what you're saying though.
that's what the word precedent means in this context though. it's a standard for future behaviour set by past behaviour, in this case the behaviour being release timing.
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Idk about you guys but I feel like Riot does a great job about handling most things, sure there are some hiccups every once and awhile but nothing too bad. Coming over from SC and blizzard it's great lol.
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United States23745 Posts
On August 01 2013 08:53 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 08:48 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 01 2013 08:46 Ketara wrote:On August 01 2013 08:44 NeoIllusions wrote:On August 01 2013 08:40 PrinceXizor wrote:
Riot needs to stop generating their own hype. Asmos comment about dotas hype is right. Things are just DONE in dota. we don't get alerted of the patch until its out. Heroes just COme out with no warning. Riot tried to control and generate all their own hype, and it leaves the community pretty left out unless they follow the riot train. For instance there is no LoL channel that compares to how good DotaCinema is. there is no hype surrounding releases of patches, because its expectd that riot tells everyone whats in it beforehand, so when it comes out everyone is just thinking, yeah, thats what we had expected. wtf... If you want to bitch about balance I mean, whatever. But if you want to say Riot is bad at managing its community like, what? srs? I'm saying riot shouldn't be managing its community as much as it is. its hard to find an aspect of the lol community that isn't guided entirely by riot. thats bad. its bad for long term growth and its bad for the pro scene. The only people that I ever hear this from are from Dota players. Pretty sure most of us are ok with how Riot runs things. From a spectrum of Blizzard to Riot, I'll take Riot. Edit: I also want to say that your patch note example is pretty damn bad. Why is a preview of upcoming shit ever a bad thing? @_@
If anything patch note hype gets killed by PBE mining, that's not really Riot's fault though.
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On August 01 2013 08:54 UniversalSnip wrote:xizor hype train pulling in, choo choo. Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 08:44 vvSiegvv wrote:
I guess I just disagree with you. It's very possible to set a precedent without limiting yourself to a timetable. I understand what you're saying though. that's what the word precedent means in this context though. it's a standard for future behaviour set by past behaviour, in this case the behaviour being release timing.
But couldn't you just do the following. Say a new champ will come out when he's patched into the client. That way, you don't sit in this awkward state of wondering when he's going to be turned on, but Riot can still take the time to release the patch when he's ready. The only reason there is so much confusion is because it's been so inconsistent in the past.
EDIT
Ya of course though people will still then bitch about "OMG WHEN IS THE PATCH COMING", but I mean there's always going to be something for people to bitch at haha.
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On August 01 2013 08:48 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 08:46 Ketara wrote:On August 01 2013 08:44 NeoIllusions wrote:On August 01 2013 08:40 PrinceXizor wrote:
Riot needs to stop generating their own hype. Asmos comment about dotas hype is right. Things are just DONE in dota. we don't get alerted of the patch until its out. Heroes just COme out with no warning. Riot tried to control and generate all their own hype, and it leaves the community pretty left out unless they follow the riot train. For instance there is no LoL channel that compares to how good DotaCinema is. there is no hype surrounding releases of patches, because its expectd that riot tells everyone whats in it beforehand, so when it comes out everyone is just thinking, yeah, thats what we had expected. wtf... If you want to bitch about balance I mean, whatever. But if you want to say Riot is bad at managing its community like, what? srs? I'm saying riot shouldn't be managing its community as much as it is. its hard to find an aspect of the lol community that isn't guided entirely by riot. thats bad. its bad for long term growth and its bad for the pro scene.
Honestly that's how I used to think because of that's how broodwar pro scene develloped. But now you look at LoL, see al the riot managing, and still it's the most successfull game/e-sport to date. So who are we to judge whether it's bad if they get involved so much.
As for patchs, I actually like the frequent patching, I'm sure riot's objective is not to have a "perfectly balanced" game or the likes. letting players "figure out" stuff on their own instead of changing them creates a solid game yes, but a rather stale one too. LoL being a moba and not a very difficult one to play can take advantage of changing stuff frequently, switching power between champions and stuff, because as long as each side has a similar winrate, there will never be a hudge imbalance.
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While I love the fact that DotA is community-guided...
A Riot-controlled pro-scene is still really good. I don't think it's terrible at all.
Just because the community is lazy and doesn't put out content doesn't mean it's Riot's fault.
Blizzard sucks.
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Most complaints by community sounds a lot like a teenage girl complaining about her parents who got her a white bmw, instead of the black one. A lot of it has to do with the fact that Riot has taken such great care of their consumers, that a lot of it has to do with consumer expectations being so high.
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Baa?21242 Posts
On August 01 2013 08:59 SagaZ wrote:
As for patchs, I actually like the frequent patching, I'm sure riot's objective is not to have a "perfectly balanced" game or the likes. letting players "figure out" stuff on their own instead of changing them creates a solid game yes, but a rather stale one too. LoL being a moba and not a very difficult one to play can take advantage of changing stuff frequently, switching power between champions and stuff, because as long as each side has a similar winrate, there will never be a hudge imbalance.
you say that, and then you realize Lee Sin still hasn't been deleted.
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On August 01 2013 09:00 wei2coolman wrote:
Most complaints by community sounds a lot like a teenage girl complaining about her parents who got her a white bmw, instead of the black one.
QFT
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On August 01 2013 08:53 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 08:48 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 01 2013 08:46 Ketara wrote:On August 01 2013 08:44 NeoIllusions wrote:On August 01 2013 08:40 PrinceXizor wrote:
Riot needs to stop generating their own hype. Asmos comment about dotas hype is right. Things are just DONE in dota. we don't get alerted of the patch until its out. Heroes just COme out with no warning. Riot tried to control and generate all their own hype, and it leaves the community pretty left out unless they follow the riot train. For instance there is no LoL channel that compares to how good DotaCinema is. there is no hype surrounding releases of patches, because its expectd that riot tells everyone whats in it beforehand, so when it comes out everyone is just thinking, yeah, thats what we had expected. wtf... If you want to bitch about balance I mean, whatever. But if you want to say Riot is bad at managing its community like, what? srs? I'm saying riot shouldn't be managing its community as much as it is. its hard to find an aspect of the lol community that isn't guided entirely by riot. thats bad. its bad for long term growth and its bad for the pro scene. Could you explain how it's bad for the pro scene? Riot has always had extremely close community interaction and it is the most played game in the world and the most watched eSport in the world... and OGN has adapted it as its flagship eSport after Brood War ended...
A lot of things went into LoL being adopted by the world and the smallest of them is riots involvement with making it happen (unless they have a lot of private information about contracting these groups to all adopt lol, but the scene isn't THAT manufactured i'd think)
As for why its bad for the pro scene. when riot manages everything, sponsors have very little incentive to actually sponsor a team. sure the teams can get product sponsorship which are essentially free publicity for the sponsor, since they cost relatively little. But almost no teams are ACTUALLY sponsored. there are a lot of internal sponsorships like lolking and other league related site sponsoring, but thats fairly limited overall.
Riot had stated a goal of running a couple seasons of LCS and then just having the tournament and being hands off for the teams. but Why should I as a sponsor put money into housing a team, feeding them, and paying for them to go to finals and stuff, when i can get the exact amount of exposure from just giving them 10 sets of products and asking them to patch my logo on themselves. There is no reason to do so. As it is right now, if riot were to step back from their support of teams, the NA scene is just gone period. and EU will be centered around dreamhacks only. That is something that doesn't seem to be changing anytime soon.
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On August 01 2013 08:57 vvSiegvv wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 08:54 UniversalSnip wrote:xizor hype train pulling in, choo choo. On August 01 2013 08:44 vvSiegvv wrote:
I guess I just disagree with you. It's very possible to set a precedent without limiting yourself to a timetable. I understand what you're saying though. that's what the word precedent means in this context though. it's a standard for future behaviour set by past behaviour, in this case the behaviour being release timing. But couldn't you just do the following. Say a new champ will come out when he's patched into the client. That way, you don't sit in this awkward state of wondering when he's going to be turned on, but Riot can still take the time to release the patch when he's ready. The only reason there is so much confusion is because it's been so inconsistent in the past. EDIT Ya of course though people will still then bitch about "OMG WHEN IS THE PATCH COMING", but I mean there's always going to be something for people to bitch at haha.
yeah, you've identified the problem, which is that issues arise from the release being tied to a specific thing, whether it's a date or a patch cycle or what.
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United States15536 Posts
I would like to state for the record that I like how Riot hypes their patches just fine, but I think the hype would be accordingly greater if all of a sudden three champs came out at once. We'd all freak out like hell.
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United States47024 Posts
The patch thing is really a double-edged sword. On the one hand, there is virtually never any negative opinion about new DotA patches. The community response to a patch is almost always overwhelmingly positive.
On the other hand, the timing of the patches seems to always come just as the time when people are saying "I am sick of seeing X hero" to remedy that. This is something the DotA community has become fairly conditioned to--most people don't mind seeing a hero played a lot over a long period of time, and it's usually around 6-8 months into a patch when people start getting sick of a common competitive hero. Undoubtedly, the League community tends to be a lot more fickle and less tolerant of heroes getting picked/played a lot.
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On August 01 2013 09:03 AsmodeusXI wrote:
I would like to state for the record that I like how Riot hypes their patches just fine, but I think the hype would be accordingly greater if all of a sudden three champs came out at once. We'd all freak out like hell.
I think TL would go down due to all the bitching we'd do.
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On August 01 2013 08:57 vvSiegvv wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 08:54 UniversalSnip wrote:xizor hype train pulling in, choo choo. On August 01 2013 08:44 vvSiegvv wrote:
I guess I just disagree with you. It's very possible to set a precedent without limiting yourself to a timetable. I understand what you're saying though. that's what the word precedent means in this context though. it's a standard for future behaviour set by past behaviour, in this case the behaviour being release timing. But couldn't you just do the following. Say a new champ will come out when he's patched into the client. That way, you don't sit in this awkward state of wondering when he's going to be turned on, but Riot can still take the time to release the patch when he's ready. The only reason there is so much confusion is because it's been so inconsistent in the past. EDIT Ya of course though people will still then bitch about "OMG WHEN IS THE PATCH COMING", but I mean there's always going to be something for people to bitch at haha.
There are three reasons not to do that. First, it means you only get 1 wave of "Come check out new stuff!" hype per patch. Second, there are good technical reasons to push the champion files with the patch and to avoid choosing between forcing an additional downtime to put out a champion, delaying a champion until the next balance patch, or having a certain percentage of players get booted on game start with a decently large download because they lack the new champion files if you hotpatch them in. Thirdly, they don't have the most stable of servers already. Separating the increased load from the patch(and any added problems that it may cause) and the champion release was the original reason given for delaying champions an unannounced <24 hour period of time after patches.
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On August 01 2013 08:40 PrinceXizor wrote:
Riot needs to stop generating their own hype. Asmos comment about dotas hype is right. Things are just DONE in dota. we don't get alerted of the patch until its out. Heroes just COme out with no warning. Riot tried to control and generate all their own hype, and it leaves the community pretty left out unless they follow the riot train. For instance there is no LoL channel that compares to how good DotaCinema is. there is no hype surrounding releases of patches, because its expectd that riot tells everyone whats in it beforehand, so when it comes out everyone is just thinking, yeah, thats what we had expected.
There's no PBE for DotA or DotA 2.
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EPT
