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On August 01 2013 09:17 Lmui wrote:
Hmm. Additional changes incoming to EG? Wickd's been doing nothing but play AD when he's duoQ'd with Froggen for the last couple of hours, kinda odd.
I doubt it. His champion pool has been tiny since the beginning of time, imagine how long it would take him to learn to play a whole new role at a competitive level all together?
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United States15536 Posts
On August 01 2013 09:20 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 09:19 Alaric wrote:On August 01 2013 09:10 TheYango wrote:On August 01 2013 09:09 Alaric wrote:On August 01 2013 08:40 PrinceXizor wrote:
Riot needs to stop generating their own hype. Asmos comment about dotas hype is right. Things are just DONE in dota. we don't get alerted of the patch until its out. Heroes just COme out with no warning. Riot tried to control and generate all their own hype, and it leaves the community pretty left out unless they follow the riot train. For instance there is no LoL channel that compares to how good DotaCinema is. there is no hype surrounding releases of patches, because its expectd that riot tells everyone whats in it beforehand, so when it comes out everyone is just thinking, yeah, thats what we had expected. There's no PBE for DotA or DotA 2. There actually is a Test Server for DotA 2. It is public/relatively wide in terms of access? Are there often leaks if not? Just curious, since people seem to talk as if they have no idea what's going to be in a DotA patch when it comes out. I'm pretty sure it's public.
If I remember correctly, the first WHIFF of most "patches" are announced with EVERYTHING rather than little details at a time and they immediately go to the Test Environment. So usually patches go to the Test first but they're talked about "as if they're live. "
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Baa?21244 Posts
On August 01 2013 09:20 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 09:17 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On August 01 2013 09:13 NeoIllusions wrote:On August 01 2013 09:09 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On August 01 2013 09:06 TheYango wrote:
Undoubtedly, the League community tends to be a lot more fickle and less tolerant of heroes getting picked/played a lot. Riot needs to just delete all the heroes who have two skillsets - Lee Sin, Jayce, Nidalee, Elise, etc. - and the game will be in a great place. Also Fizz because fuck Fizz. I like you, Cheep. But fu. I've hated Fizz long before yous tarted playing Fizz. Neo pls. No way...
Neo pls. Why you play Fizz? I thought you had self-respect...
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On August 01 2013 09:09 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 09:06 TheYango wrote:
Undoubtedly, the League community tends to be a lot more fickle and less tolerant of heroes getting picked/played a lot. Riot needs to just delete all the heroes who have two skillsets - Lee Sin, Jayce, Nidalee, Elise, etc. - and the game will be in a great place. Also Fizz because fuck Fizz.
wish I could go fix the timestream. yorick never released.
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United States47024 Posts
Also, the worst part about Riot running the pro scene is that we've had to listen to Riv+Phreak English commentary since the scene began. Every tournament being Riot-staffed really killed a lot of the demand for community commentators.
Which is...frustrating to say the least.
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United States37500 Posts
On August 01 2013 09:23 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 09:20 NeoIllusions wrote:On August 01 2013 09:17 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On August 01 2013 09:13 NeoIllusions wrote:On August 01 2013 09:09 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On August 01 2013 09:06 TheYango wrote:
Undoubtedly, the League community tends to be a lot more fickle and less tolerant of heroes getting picked/played a lot. Riot needs to just delete all the heroes who have two skillsets - Lee Sin, Jayce, Nidalee, Elise, etc. - and the game will be in a great place. Also Fizz because fuck Fizz. I like you, Cheep. But fu. I've hated Fizz long before yous tarted playing Fizz. Neo pls. No way... Neo pls. Why you play Fizz? I thought you had self-respect...
SHARK
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On August 01 2013 09:25 TheYango wrote:
Also, the worst part about Riot running the pro scene is that we've had to listen to Riv+Phreak English commentary since the scene began.
Which is...frustrating to say the least.
Most of the commentating during LCS is pretty annoyingly bad; mostly because they're advertising their game, so it's extremely dumbed down.
I wonder if Riot ever initially intended for their to be such a big pro scene, or any pro scene?
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On August 01 2013 09:10 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 09:09 Alaric wrote:On August 01 2013 08:40 PrinceXizor wrote:
Riot needs to stop generating their own hype. Asmos comment about dotas hype is right. Things are just DONE in dota. we don't get alerted of the patch until its out. Heroes just COme out with no warning. Riot tried to control and generate all their own hype, and it leaves the community pretty left out unless they follow the riot train. For instance there is no LoL channel that compares to how good DotaCinema is. there is no hype surrounding releases of patches, because its expectd that riot tells everyone whats in it beforehand, so when it comes out everyone is just thinking, yeah, thats what we had expected. There's no PBE for DotA or DotA 2. There actually is a Test Server for DotA 2. Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 09:09 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On August 01 2013 09:06 TheYango wrote:
Undoubtedly, the League community tends to be a lot more fickle and less tolerant of heroes getting picked/played a lot. Riot needs to just delete all the heroes who have two skillsets - Lee Sin, Jayce, Nidalee, Elise, etc. - and the game will be in a great place. Also Fizz because fuck Fizz. I don't think there's any individual champ who i consider problematic. Most of the issues I currently have with the game are systemic, such as mana cost creep or cost/slot efficiency in itemization.
I do agree with you that the problems in the game don't generally have to do with one champion.
My problem with Riot's changes are how they baby us.
For instance in BW if 2 gate was an overpowered tactic at lower levels you just had to learn how to deal with it. With some 2 fact vultures with mines opening or some junk.
Here, if Elise is bullying Jax too much, then Elise gets nerfed and Jax gets a new MR item to counter Elise. Like I don't have time to try out my own counterplays.
For the same reason level 2 invades got nerfed and Rengar's going to get remade to reduce his sudden I KEEL U! even though both are counterable by playing a little smart.
+ Show Spoiler [rant about things in lol that seem gre…] +
There are also some plays that there is no good counterplay too. Facechecking is just so dangerous but even walking in your own jungle if it isn't warded is dangerous. Teemo can be hiding in a brush for a minute and kill you as soon as you step in a shroom or Rengar might do the same thing.
Certain types of hard CC are way too long Eg. Fiddle fear, they ruin any chance you have of counterplay. Fiddle can literally flash to you from outside your vision, fear you, and his team can kill you before you get out of the CC.
AoE teamcomps are still just a cluster of WTF. Like they're just so fast and random that there's no time to really react before everything is dead.
There are several times you get counterpicked and just don't know what to do in lane.
There are several situations where you can't figure out what you could have done better, like Shaco level 3 gank from lane brush. These last two aren't as bad though since they gives you a chance to test your ability to play from behind.
For the above you can comfort yourself that if you play well on average, even if you get unlucky once in a while you will still have more good/even games than bad.
And lag is also something outside your control. While Riot is working with Comcast and etc, it's been months and there is no end in sight. There is no comfort for lag since it's so scary that you'll ruin the game for your 4 allies.
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On August 01 2013 08:48 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 08:46 Ketara wrote:On August 01 2013 08:44 NeoIllusions wrote:On August 01 2013 08:40 PrinceXizor wrote:
Riot needs to stop generating their own hype. Asmos comment about dotas hype is right. Things are just DONE in dota. we don't get alerted of the patch until its out. Heroes just COme out with no warning. Riot tried to control and generate all their own hype, and it leaves the community pretty left out unless they follow the riot train. For instance there is no LoL channel that compares to how good DotaCinema is. there is no hype surrounding releases of patches, because its expectd that riot tells everyone whats in it beforehand, so when it comes out everyone is just thinking, yeah, thats what we had expected. wtf... If you want to bitch about balance I mean, whatever. But if you want to say Riot is bad at managing its community like, what? srs? I'm saying riot shouldn't be managing its community as much as it is. its hard to find an aspect of the lol community that isn't guided entirely by riot. thats bad. its bad for long term growth and its bad for the pro scene.
You have to invest in your product and maintain its image if you're going to have it scale in the way that you want. The worst thing Riot can do during their worldwide expansion phase is to let their product's community run amok. It's basic product expansion. A large portion of the LoL experience is curated. Zilean's antipatterns, their design philosophies, the LCS, the community showcase videos.
This is entirely necessary to continue their growth. LoL is much larger than Dota2 numbers wise. Dota's fans are a different breed. They're hardcore fans. There is a much larger casual base in LoL that requires and loves curated content.
Also, the ONLY way the e-sports scene is going to continue growing at a pace that we are happy with is if companies throw their money and weight behind it. Companies will not do this unless they are able to maintain control. Riot has done a great job balancing that control with the LCS teams without being overbearing or uncaring. This is probably the best thing for gaming in general: a company that is active in the community that is taking part in growing a culture around a product.
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United States47024 Posts
Zileas's antipatterns feel silly to me because 1) they feel too philosophical, and 2) they're all lumped together meaning that he forces through the ones that are total bullshit alongside the ones that are logical and make sense. Like on the whole they probably contribute positively to the game experience, but there are definitely a few that are just bullshit.
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On August 01 2013 09:25 TheYango wrote:
Also, the worst part about Riot running the pro scene is that we've had to listen to Riv+Phreak English commentary since the scene began. Every tournament being Riot-staffed really killed a lot of the demand for community commentators.
Which is...frustrating to say the least.
Well in France, since there's no official Riot stream, big webTVs have broadcast rights and work with community commentators.
Being one of those, I'm pretty thankful to be French :p
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United States47024 Posts
On August 01 2013 09:37 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 09:25 TheYango wrote:
Also, the worst part about Riot running the pro scene is that we've had to listen to Riv+Phreak English commentary since the scene began. Every tournament being Riot-staffed really killed a lot of the demand for community commentators.
Which is...frustrating to say the least. Well in France, since there's no official Riot stream, big webTVs have broadcast rights and work with community commentators. Being one of those, I'm pretty thankful to be French :p
From what I'm aware of Chinese and Korean LoL commentary, commentary in every other language is better than what we get in English.
Which says a lot because PLU's LPL commentators aren't even that good.
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On August 01 2013 09:34 Phunkapotamus wrote:
Also, the ONLY way the e-sports scene is going to continue growing at a pace that we are happy with is if companies throw their money and weight behind it. Companies will not do this unless they are able to maintain control. Riot has done a great job balancing that control with the LCS teams without being overbearing or uncaring. This is probably the best thing for gaming in general: a company that is active in the community that is taking part in growing a culture around a product.
Right because brood war, the FGC and dota all grew because the companies that made the games managed everything. Hint: a company didn't even make one of those.
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On August 01 2013 09:38 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 09:37 mr_tolkien wrote:On August 01 2013 09:25 TheYango wrote:
Also, the worst part about Riot running the pro scene is that we've had to listen to Riv+Phreak English commentary since the scene began. Every tournament being Riot-staffed really killed a lot of the demand for community commentators.
Which is...frustrating to say the least. Well in France, since there's no official Riot stream, big webTVs have broadcast rights and work with community commentators. Being one of those, I'm pretty thankful to be French :p From what I'm aware of Chinese and Korean LoL commentary, commentary in every other language is better than what we get in English. Which says a lot because PLU's LPL commentators aren't even that good.
Whoa; you dissing Monte and DoA?
Also; chinese play by play commentary is pretty lacking; all I hear is "Such beautiful play" repeated 10 times.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 01 2013 09:41 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 09:38 TheYango wrote:On August 01 2013 09:37 mr_tolkien wrote:On August 01 2013 09:25 TheYango wrote:
Also, the worst part about Riot running the pro scene is that we've had to listen to Riv+Phreak English commentary since the scene began. Every tournament being Riot-staffed really killed a lot of the demand for community commentators.
Which is...frustrating to say the least. Well in France, since there's no official Riot stream, big webTVs have broadcast rights and work with community commentators. Being one of those, I'm pretty thankful to be French :p From what I'm aware of Chinese and Korean LoL commentary, commentary in every other language is better than what we get in English. Which says a lot because PLU's LPL commentators aren't even that good. Whoa; you dissing Monte and DoA? Also; chinese play by play commentary is pretty lacking; all I hear is "Such beautiful play" repeated 10 times.
I sort of count Monte and DoA as "Korean commentary".
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United States15536 Posts
On August 01 2013 09:40 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 09:34 Phunkapotamus wrote:
Also, the ONLY way the e-sports scene is going to continue growing at a pace that we are happy with is if companies throw their money and weight behind it. Companies will not do this unless they are able to maintain control. Riot has done a great job balancing that control with the LCS teams without being overbearing or uncaring. This is probably the best thing for gaming in general: a company that is active in the community that is taking part in growing a culture around a product. Right because brood war, the FGC and dota all grew because the companies that made the games managed everything. Hint: a company didn't even make one of those.
None of those have 32 million international players. And yes, scale is extremely relevant to this discussion.
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On August 01 2013 09:37 TheYango wrote:
Zileas's antipatterns feel silly to me because 1) they feel too philosophical, and 2) they're all lumped together meaning that he forces through the ones that are total bullshit alongside the ones that are logical and make sense. Like on the whole they probably contribute positively to the game experience, but there are definitely a few that are just bullshit.
As a game designer he is really spot on with how to develop the initial learning curve. His rules make for an excellent initial framework. I don't think they scale very well with competitive play. After a certain point the philosophies have to be broken or bent in order to create enough nuanced gameplay as to be interesting.
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On August 01 2013 09:40 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 09:34 Phunkapotamus wrote:
Also, the ONLY way the e-sports scene is going to continue growing at a pace that we are happy with is if companies throw their money and weight behind it. Companies will not do this unless they are able to maintain control. Riot has done a great job balancing that control with the LCS teams without being overbearing or uncaring. This is probably the best thing for gaming in general: a company that is active in the community that is taking part in growing a culture around a product. Right because brood war, the FGC and dota all grew because the companies that made the games managed everything. Hint: a company didn't even make one of those.
You're being an esports hipster. Embrace change and let the big money flow or forever be labeled a basement dwelling nerd.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 01 2013 09:44 Phunkapotamus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 09:37 TheYango wrote:
Zileas's antipatterns feel silly to me because 1) they feel too philosophical, and 2) they're all lumped together meaning that he forces through the ones that are total bullshit alongside the ones that are logical and make sense. Like on the whole they probably contribute positively to the game experience, but there are definitely a few that are just bullshit. As a game designer he is really spot on with how to develop the initial learning curve. His rules make for an excellent initial framework. I don't think they scale very well with competitive play. After a certain point the philosophies have to be broken or bent in order to create enough nuanced gameplay as to be interesting.
Some of them do, other's don't. Unclear optimization is the one that stands out to me. Every point-and-click skill or disable is a case of unclear optimization. ESPECIALLY disables, where who you use them on is so critical, but so unclear as to who is the "correct" target.
I'd argue that it's easier to tell that you used Kunkka ult well than Taric stun on the right person, even though Kunkka is his specific counter-example for unclear optimization.
EDIT: There's also a pretty clear anti-WoW/anti-DotA bent to how he presents that post, which leads him to judge certain mechanics incorrectly/unfairly.
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On August 01 2013 09:43 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 09:40 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 01 2013 09:34 Phunkapotamus wrote:
Also, the ONLY way the e-sports scene is going to continue growing at a pace that we are happy with is if companies throw their money and weight behind it. Companies will not do this unless they are able to maintain control. Riot has done a great job balancing that control with the LCS teams without being overbearing or uncaring. This is probably the best thing for gaming in general: a company that is active in the community that is taking part in growing a culture around a product. Right because brood war, the FGC and dota all grew because the companies that made the games managed everything. Hint: a company didn't even make one of those. None of those have 32 million international players. And yes, scale is extremely relevant to this discussion.
Dota 1 has definitely had that many international players.
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EPT
