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On July 20 2013 04:35 Haiq343 wrote:The whining in that thread is astounding. Lots of props to Riot for continuing to be fairly open and communicative about what they're up to when everytime Morello posts he gets all those mouth breathers. I don't know that riot would call global passives anti-fun, they seem to reserve that lingo for things that are in fact un-fun to play against, but rather simply correctly consider those passives very strong, often unnoticed power, with not decision or counter-play involved. Pretty obvious candidates for tweaks.
Riot doesn't like counterplay; look at the way they design their champion. They're just good at everything, that there is no counterplay.
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On July 20 2013 04:37 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 04:35 Haiq343 wrote:The whining in that thread is astounding. Lots of props to Riot for continuing to be fairly open and communicative about what they're up to when everytime Morello posts he gets all those mouth breathers. I don't know that riot would call global passives anti-fun, they seem to reserve that lingo for things that are in fact un-fun to play against, but rather simply correctly consider those passives very strong, often unnoticed power, with not decision or counter-play involved. Pretty obvious candidates for tweaks. Riot doesn't like counterplay; look at the way they design their champion. They're just good at everything, that there is no counterplay.
Well I didn't say they were good at it, just that that appears to be one of their commonly stated design goals. I wish they did a better job, and agree that many of the recent heroes particularly are ughhhh in that regard. I don't think they really want super complex depth of counter-play, because that makes the game harder for the casual/newer player, but it seems like they give it the old college try or w/e (and then make manaless champs hue).
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TF and Zileans passives are completely overpowered.
With TF it's obvious, because the rest of TF's kit is overpowered too. Zilean skates by because nobody plays him.
Janna I think is a bit weirder, her passive is basically either amazing or useless. If it changes a lane dynamic where your champion moves faster than theirs where it normally wouldn't then it's awesome and feels awesome, if it doesn't you don't notice it. So I can understand removing it for the sake of being able to easier balance the rest of the champion.
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On July 20 2013 04:49 Ketara wrote:
TF and Zileans passives are completely overpowered.
With TF it's obvious, because the rest of TF's kit is overpowered too. Zilean skates by because nobody plays him.
Janna I think is a bit weirder, her passive is basically either amazing or useless. If it changes a lane dynamic where your champion moves faster than theirs where it normally wouldn't then it's awesome and feels awesome, if it doesn't you don't notice it. So I can understand removing it for the sake of being able to easier balance the rest of the champion.
you can't just look at a single ability and say it's "op'd"; it has to be part of a coherent kit. Zil may have a strong passive; but his over all kit doesn't warrant any nerfing to his passive.
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Sure if one part of a champion is overpowered and the rest is weak, then overall it's okay. Some stuff should be OP.
But everything TF has is ridiculous, even after nerfs. I fully support killing his passive. If he didn't have a passive at all he'd still be a top pick.
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On July 20 2013 04:54 Ketara wrote:
Sure if one part of a champion is overpowered and the rest is weak, then overall it's okay. Some stuff should be OP.
But everything TF has is ridiculous, even after nerfs. I fully support killing his passive. If he didn't have a passive at all he'd still be a top pick.
Then why target the passive? It's not what is making him OP'd. It doesn't fix what makes TF stupid in top tier play. I don't think it even curves off his strength at all; especially at highest tier of play.
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Well as far as I can tell (and I'm no expert) the reason Nature's Profit works is because of things like teleport scrolls and BT's even though his "Gate" has a ~20 sec cd and is true global. I don't see how you could put either of those items in to LoL without some serious (read non-mid season) changes.
So they'll probly just go Nocturne on him which is kinda sad to me, but mabye ok for the game.
I also don't like how Riot has been gradually been moving away from team buffs J4 flag getting nerfed over and over, incoming proposed bulwark nerfs and now this. I think stuff like auras and buffs add more depth to champion select, but then who knows at the start of s3 they said they don't like skill being involved in picking.
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On July 20 2013 04:14 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 04:13 Simberto wrote:
From what i heard, its basically the most unfair and ridiculous platformer out there, and also very hard, and apparently some people like that. I think the discussion trailed over to it from Dark Souls which is also known to be hard, but which is actually not unfair. I was watching the youtube video for it; looks so silly. There are so many unprompted things; like random moon falling down and spinning around the map. That's not difficulty; that's bullshit.
Right, that's basically why a lot of old Atari/Nintendo games were so hard. Jumping over a bottomless pit in Ninja Gaiden? Enjoy this random hawk who just appeared out of nowhere.
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On July 20 2013 04:14 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 04:13 Simberto wrote:
From what i heard, its basically the most unfair and ridiculous platformer out there, and also very hard, and apparently some people like that. I think the discussion trailed over to it from Dark Souls which is also known to be hard, but which is actually not unfair. I was watching the youtube video for it; looks so silly. There are so many unprompted things; like random moon falling down and spinning around the map. That's not difficulty; that's bullshit.
it's actually hilarious
what the game throws at you sometimes is so silly that you just have to sit back and laugh at what just happened
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On July 20 2013 04:59 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 04:54 Ketara wrote:
Sure if one part of a champion is overpowered and the rest is weak, then overall it's okay. Some stuff should be OP.
But everything TF has is ridiculous, even after nerfs. I fully support killing his passive. If he didn't have a passive at all he'd still be a top pick. Then why target the passive? It's not what is making him OP'd. It doesn't fix what makes TF stupid in top tier play. I don't think it even curves off his strength at all; especially at highest tier of play.
even if it is not, at the moment, what makes tf 100% pick/ban, the passive is an issue that will need to be addressed sooner or later. riot apparently has the resources to commit to the changes now, and the timing (relatively close to worlds) is such that truly significant kit changes like global ult revisions are inadvisable until postseason.
so that's why target the passive - game balance is not only about what will have an immediate impact on gameplay
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On July 20 2013 04:59 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 04:54 Ketara wrote:
Sure if one part of a champion is overpowered and the rest is weak, then overall it's okay. Some stuff should be OP.
But everything TF has is ridiculous, even after nerfs. I fully support killing his passive. If he didn't have a passive at all he'd still be a top pick. Then why target the passive? It's not what is making him OP'd. It doesn't fix what makes TF stupid in top tier play. I don't think it even curves off his strength at all; especially at highest tier of play.
I thought they explained it pretty well?
It's 1 - Easy, and 2 - The lamest part of his kit.
TF has a really cool kit that creates a lot of really cool situations, and it's really cool. It's just too good. So why not cut his power back a little by getting rid of the only part of his kit that is completely uninteresting.
I'd also like to see blue cards nerfed, but that's just me. Guy shouldn't have infinite mana. Infinite mana isn't cool.
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On July 20 2013 04:59 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 04:54 Ketara wrote:
Sure if one part of a champion is overpowered and the rest is weak, then overall it's okay. Some stuff should be OP.
But everything TF has is ridiculous, even after nerfs. I fully support killing his passive. If he didn't have a passive at all he'd still be a top pick. Then why target the passive? It's not what is making him OP'd. It doesn't fix what makes TF stupid in top tier play. I don't think it even curves off his strength at all; especially at highest tier of play.
If you directly target a champion's strengths when you go balance a game, you quickly end up with a game where everything is really boring.
I think a lot of TLers would prefer "fight OP with OP" (that is the BW way!) and Riot clearly does not do this, but at least they have the presence of mind to not immediately nerf all the strong points of champions right away and level the field to a blob of generic champions with the same abilities.
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They could give TF no passive at all and he'd still be the best mid laner in the game.
As someone who plays a lot of TF I don't really care that his passive is being changed. The new passive will probably be even better for TF in solo queue even if the rest of your team gets a bit less gold.
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Well, IWTBG becomes fun after awhile. You just start shrugging off deaths and being careful.
I still can't get over murder fruit.
On the other hand, I forget what MMO it was (Everquest maybe), but apparently the devs came out with a boss that was supposed to be unkillable. A guild just got together and whacked away at it for like 2 days while reviving their allies faster than they could be killed, then the devs pulled the plug or something.
EDIT: Also, Pink Bean.
Fuck Pink Bean.
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On July 20 2013 05:02 Slusher wrote:
Well as far as I can tell (and I'm no expert) the reason Nature's Profit works is because of things like teleport scrolls and BT's even though his "Gate" has a ~20 sec cd and is true global. I don't see how you could put either of those items in to LoL without some serious (read non-mid season) changes.
NP has like zero damage without items. His ulti is his only real burst until he gets some items and treants require decent micro to get any kill potential. No real way to compare him to TF at all.
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fight op with op in lol would be great fun, if there was something like a week every year where champions were reverted to their release or post-hotfix states on pbe. i guess very early champions like release tf would need to be pegged to a later date
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On July 20 2013 05:09 overt wrote:
They could give TF no passive at all and he'd still be the best mid laner in the game.
As someone who plays a lot of TF I don't really care that his passive is being changed. The new passive will probably be even better for TF in solo queue even if the rest of your team gets a bit less gold.
It at least makes the focus more about shutting down TF.
I'm okay with TF being the star of the team where everything in the game is about TF and what TF is doing right now. The existing passive is like, well everything can be about TF, but if he just hangs out in mid lane he's still giving his team thousands of gold.
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On July 20 2013 05:09 ticklishmusic wrote:
Well, IWTBG becomes fun after awhile. You just start shrugging off deaths and being careful.
I still can't get over murder fruit.
On the other hand, I forget what MMO it was, but apparently the devs came out with a boss that was supposed to be unkillable. A guild just got together and whacked away at it for like 2 days while reviving their allies faster than they could be killed, then the devs pulled the plug or something.
It was WoW, C'Thun was literally unkillable upon release. Unless you're talking about something else?
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On July 20 2013 05:10 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 05:09 overt wrote:
They could give TF no passive at all and he'd still be the best mid laner in the game.
As someone who plays a lot of TF I don't really care that his passive is being changed. The new passive will probably be even better for TF in solo queue even if the rest of your team gets a bit less gold. It at least makes the focus more about shutting down TF. I'm okay with TF being the star of the team where everything in the game is about TF and what TF is doing right now. The existing passive is like, well everything can be about TF, but if he just hangs out in mid lane he's still giving his team thousands of gold.
You need 500 CS for just 1000 gold, and that's teamwide. Even in a long game where 300 CS on a carry is expected, that's 600 gold. You can get an Amp Tome or Longsword at 40+ minutes I guess.
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EPT
