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On July 02 2013 14:21 Kupon3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:55 onlywonderboy wrote:On July 02 2013 13:51 kainzero wrote:On July 02 2013 13:07 Ketara wrote:
It is so sad to me to see this argument again.
"Lets all play League of Legends! Yeah! We like it so much we'll spend hours of our time talking about it on forums!"
"By the way, the design team is shit and none of them know what they're doing!"
Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh. So? There are a lot of games with "accidental" mechanics that turned out to be a lot of fun. The best example I can think of is Smash Melee. From Season 2 to Season 3, with all the tinkering they did, I really can't say I enjoy the game much more than before, nor can I say that I enjoy it any less either. If we want to keep it in the realm of MOBAs (or whatever your preferred acronym is) creep stacking and pulling camps into lane in Dota was unintended. I think that's one of the fundamental differences between Dota and LoL, in Dota something that's unintended is usually readily embraced as long as its not game-breaking wheras in LoL playing the game outside of the "intended" box usually leads to a pretty swift nerf, the first cases that come to mind are AP yi and AP trynd
Both of which were incredibly annoying and unfun for everyone but the player doing it. I had a blast as AP trynd, but my opponents were clearly not having fun, and as such I'd say Riot did the right thing.
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As a DotA example I'd say Shadow Blade BH was a pretty obvious one.
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On July 02 2013 18:55 Osmoses wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 14:21 Kupon3ss wrote:On July 02 2013 13:55 onlywonderboy wrote:On July 02 2013 13:51 kainzero wrote:On July 02 2013 13:07 Ketara wrote:
It is so sad to me to see this argument again.
"Lets all play League of Legends! Yeah! We like it so much we'll spend hours of our time talking about it on forums!"
"By the way, the design team is shit and none of them know what they're doing!"
Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh. So? There are a lot of games with "accidental" mechanics that turned out to be a lot of fun. The best example I can think of is Smash Melee. From Season 2 to Season 3, with all the tinkering they did, I really can't say I enjoy the game much more than before, nor can I say that I enjoy it any less either. If we want to keep it in the realm of MOBAs (or whatever your preferred acronym is) creep stacking and pulling camps into lane in Dota was unintended. I think that's one of the fundamental differences between Dota and LoL, in Dota something that's unintended is usually readily embraced as long as its not game-breaking wheras in LoL playing the game outside of the "intended" box usually leads to a pretty swift nerf, the first cases that come to mind are AP yi and AP trynd Both of which were incredibly annoying and unfun for everyone but the player doing it. I had a blast as AP trynd, but my opponents were clearly not having fun, and as such I'd say Riot did the right thing.
This mentality doesn't make much sense to me. Anything that makes me lose isn't fun for me so does that mean everything must be removed that does such a thing? This concept of 'unfun' is just an excuse to remove things from the game without getting a community backslash. Riot has done an amazing job have pushing this so they can have uncontested reign over the community while being completely hypocritical
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Difference is AP trynd was unfun 100% of the time, there was no win/lose scenario. AP trynd was just an unstoppable, unkillable, uncatcheable split pusher. You needed 2-3 people just to chase him away. The playstyle in and of itself was nothing but frustrating for the opposing team.
edit: imo ap trynd is still viable, but the opposition is given a fair chance.
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Now you have two conflicting arguments here. The first implies something is balanced but it is unfun and thus must be changed. The second is something is imbalanced and unfun so it gets changed. In the second it being unfun is basically irrelevant since the primary factor involved is being imbalanced.
Looking at your own example you claim AP tryn was unfun and thus changed yet still viable. This implies that it was both imbalanced and unfun at the time of change and now it's only "unfun". Split pushing by nature is "unfun" for the opposing team since it leads to frustration and requires good teamwork to deal with. The only thing I'm seeing here is that you believed AP tryn was too powerful at doing this so it get changed. This doesn't go against what I spoke about earlier. That change was a balance change and has nothing to do with something being balanced yet changed to it being "unfun". It's just a balance change masquerading as an "unfun" change.
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On July 02 2013 20:02 Osmoses wrote:
Difference is AP trynd was unfun 100% of the time, there was no win/lose scenario. AP trynd was just an unstoppable, unkillable, uncatcheable split pusher. You needed 2-3 people just to chase him away. The playstyle in and of itself was nothing but frustrating for the opposing team.
edit: imo ap trynd is still viable, but the opposition is given a fair chance.
It strangely sound like Singed. Who is still in the game.
AP trynd wasn't that OP, just really annoying. But if we remove annoying champions why are Kennen/Rumble still in the game ?
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On July 02 2013 16:49 HazMat wrote:
So I found out why my chat wasn't showing up in replays and when I was spectating. If you move your chat to the left side of your screen (I do this so it's above my minimap since my minimap is inverted) it won't show up. I have no idea why... I guess the chat is automatically moved to the left in replays and when you're spectating so it moves it off the screen if it's initially on the left?
Idk Riot should look into it :3
That's what I was getting at last time I responded. Guess I communicated terribly, sorry.
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I'm saying ap trynd is less annoying because he's no longer unkillable :p and to make him work now you can't just stack cdr and ap, you have to play him more closely as to how was originally intended, which is more fun for the opposition.
I agree kennen/elise is unfun to play against. I wouldn't mind a remake. Jayce I think is less problematic. Thing is all of those annoying champs have to play by the rules after the laning phase, whereas ap trynd was basically an absentee throughout the game.
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In the shower I came to a realization. According to what you have said AP tryn was nerfed because he excelled at splitpushing. This got me thinking about the requirements of splitpushing which I believe are as follows:
1) Mobility
2) Waveclear
3) Building killing
4) Dueling ability
Anyone that excels at most of these points has the potential to splitpush. Zed comes to mind who has all of these factors. Also with the inclusion of homeguard boots this means the team defending has the advantage if the enemy chooses to send an individual to duel with the splitpusher. This bring about the question of what are the requirements for a team to deal with splitpushing. Using a some simplifications I've come up with these:
1) Ability to breach highground.
2) Ability to force a teamfight
There are more I think but these 2 are the ones I'm focusing on since I believe LoL actually has too few tools to enable teams to actually accomplish this. My knowledge of dota is a bit more than LoL so I'm going to compare a few things that Dota that LoL either doesn't or has in a form that isn't enough.
Pipe of Insight - This gives a magical damage shield to everyone in the area upon activation. At first it sounds very much like locket but the thing to note is that it gives the shield to creeps too. A lot of the problems with breaching highground in lol is that waveclear is so easy to come by so it takes time to get into a position to fight without diving past t3 towers.
Mek - This heals and gives an armour buff to everyone upon activation(Gives a passive buff too). This again works on creeps too.
These two items are often THE items to get when a team has an advantage and wants to break highground. Often teams fail to break highground due to the lack of these items.
The second point can include breaking highground but isn't always the cause. It's the ability to force a 5v4 fight. This could be a case of team drafts or teams inexperience with initiation that makes it seem so difficult for this to happen in LoL so it's hard to say. Someone with better knowledge has to help me here.
Anyone that has shown to excel in splitpushing seems to get nerfed in the game. Nidalee,Zed,Tryn all come to mind and I'm sure there are more that I don't know about. Some might have been nerfed for other reasons but I can't help feel it was partially due to this factor. Currently they are merely trying to stop the bleeding instead of fix what is causing the bleed I feel. Introducing more tools to deal with splitpushing might go a long way to "fixing" these feelings of frustration every time a new character pops up that excels at it.
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On July 02 2013 11:11 NeoIllusions wrote:
I'd just like to share that Fizz is a lot of fun and he's pretty gud against a number of AD Mids (as long as you know how to trollstick when they start to aggro). But holy shit, I cannot Chum for my life. 2/10 np.
That is all.
Neo, I am disappoint.
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only thing about AP trynd was that he healed his whole healthbar every 7 fucking seconds oh and ofc that+no cd spin made him uncatchable
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I feel that the high ground and ability to force a teamfight when entering the lategame Is more so an Issue with the team composition and Items they have bought over the course of the game. For example, there were some games played over the weekend at MLG where the commentators brought up how some teams picked raw, Individual champion power over a cohesive, lategame team composition. I cant remember the specific game, but one of the matches was where blue team had taken Baron and were trying to end the game, but because of a lack of pokes and no real engagement option, combined with the red team killing wards thrown Into their base thanks to an oracle, the red team was able to last through the bsron buff and shove blue team back.
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On July 02 2013 20:55 AsnSensation wrote:
only thing about AP trynd was that he healed his whole healthbar every 7 fucking seconds oh and ofc that+no cd spin made him uncatchable
Well, same deal with normal trynd. AP Trynd wasn't really that much more difficult to kill. If you could kill AD Trynd through his ult, so could you kill AP Trynd.
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damn didn't even realize that TSM is below 50% now, even with chaox they never were this bad. during last split.
I guess I just assumed there's no drama currently because there's no gamecribs but I bet there's a lot of shit behind the scenes at the moment.
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wickd became such a boring streamer, he plays malphite,zac and shen in pretty much every single game, i would rather watch paint dry than afk farm top with full tank builds ...
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On July 02 2013 21:24 kongoline wrote:
wickd became such a boring streamer, he plays malphite,zac and shen in pretty much every single game, i would rather watch paint dry than afk farm top with full tank builds ...
It would be fun, if he didn't have a medi-ocre play style with those champions. His Zac and Shen are so underwhelming compared to other top laners.
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On July 02 2013 20:44 Numy wrote:
In the shower I came to a realization. According to what you have said AP tryn was nerfed because he excelled at splitpushing. This got me thinking about the requirements of splitpushing which I believe are as follows:
1) Mobility
2) Waveclear
3) Building killing
4) Dueling ability
Anyone that excels at most of these points has the potential to splitpush. Zed comes to mind who has all of these factors. Also with the inclusion of homeguard boots this means the team defending has the advantage if the enemy chooses to send an individual to duel with the splitpusher. This bring about the question of what are the requirements for a team to deal with splitpushing. Using a some simplifications I've come up with these:
1) Ability to breach highground.
2) Ability to force a teamfight
There are more I think but these 2 are the ones I'm focusing on since I believe LoL actually has too few tools to enable teams to actually accomplish this. My knowledge of dota is a bit more than LoL so I'm going to compare a few things that Dota that LoL either doesn't or has in a form that isn't enough.
Pipe of Insight - This gives a magical damage shield to everyone in the area upon activation. At first it sounds very much like locket but the thing to note is that it gives the shield to creeps too. A lot of the problems with breaching highground in lol is that waveclear is so easy to come by so it takes time to get into a position to fight without diving past t3 towers.
Mek - This heals and gives an armour buff to everyone upon activation(Gives a passive buff too). This again works on creeps too.
These two items are often THE items to get when a team has an advantage and wants to break highground. Often teams fail to break highground due to the lack of these items.
The second point can include breaking highground but isn't always the cause. It's the ability to force a 5v4 fight. This could be a case of team drafts or teams inexperience with initiation that makes it seem so difficult for this to happen in LoL so it's hard to say. Someone with better knowledge has to help me here.
Anyone that has shown to excel in splitpushing seems to get nerfed in the game. Nidalee,Zed,Tryn all come to mind and I'm sure there are more that I don't know about. Some might have been nerfed for other reasons but I can't help feel it was partially due to this factor. Currently they are merely trying to stop the bleeding instead of fix what is causing the bleed I feel. Introducing more tools to deal with splitpushing might go a long way to "fixing" these feelings of frustration every time a new character pops up that excels at it.
I don't think duelling is a requirement as long as you have mobility and waveclear, you can just hang back for the next wave or go to another lane if you get confronted. What made pre-nerf AP trynd OP (and the biggest cause for frustration) was the fact that BESIDES those things he had the ridiculous sustain which allowed him to duel AND basically solo towers early on.
I'm gonna try playing AP trynd again. I'm curious to see how a hybrid build consisting of cdr/lifesteal/ap would work out.
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Alex Ich going WEEWER on his stream as TF against a Kass, to harass him harder pre-6 since he doesn't want to push him. First time I see that. ôo
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On July 02 2013 21:58 Alaric wrote:
Alex Ich going WEEWER on his stream as TF against a Kass, to harass him harder pre-6 since he doesn't want to push him. First time I see that. ôo
seems like he's building full ad tf actually, lol.
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On July 02 2013 21:24 kongoline wrote:
wickd became such a boring streamer, he plays malphite,zac and shen in pretty much every single game, i would rather watch paint dry than afk farm top with full tank builds ...
Doesnt all of CLG.EU or whatever they are now do that?
I remember specifically cutting any game of them off when they played because its literally so boring i want to die.
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EPT
