EPT[Patch 3.08: Aatrox Patch] General Discussion - Page 285
| Forum Index > LoL General |
Interested in helping start an on-topic, serious League discussion thread? PM Neo to talk about how to get started. | ||
|
cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
| ||
|
UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
| ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
| ||
|
Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
On July 02 2013 13:55 onlywonderboy wrote: If we want to keep it in the realm of MOBAs (or whatever your preferred acronym is) creep stacking and pulling camps into lane in Dota was unintended. I think that's one of the fundamental differences between Dota and LoL, in Dota something that's unintended is usually readily embraced as long as its not game-breaking wheras in LoL playing the game outside of the "intended" box usually leads to a pretty swift nerf, the first cases that come to mind are AP yi and AP trynd | ||
|
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On July 02 2013 14:21 Kupon3ss wrote: I think that's one of the fundamental differences between Dota and LoL, in Dota something that's unintended is usually readily embraced as long as its not game-breaking wheras in LoL playing the game outside of the "intended" box usually leads to a pretty swift nerf, the first cases that come to mind are AP yi and AP trynd For shame... (us/Riot that is). | ||
|
Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On July 02 2013 13:57 Amui wrote: What they could do is make the block mastery twice as effective against ranged attacks, in addition to working on spells(-3 bonus on ranged autos, -3 on spells). At the cost of reducing the power of most of the ranged lane bullies(jayce, elise, kennen, possibly a few others I can't name), you give 1v2's ~5-10% additional defense against getting harassed down early game, while not significantly affecting the game past the 10 minute mark. AFAIK only jungler's, tanky solos & supports take that mastery anyways. Would also make supports stronger in a duo lane as well I guess. While that will help, I'm not sure it's enough. The issue isn't only that the off laner is in danger of getting bursted/killed, but rather that they can't really do anything outside their tower because they get harassed down faster than they can reliably sustain themselves in lane. I also worry that doing that will make that mastery a must-have for almost any champion/match-up. + Show Spoiler + While Dota and LoL are different games, I feel that the two games have enough in common that LoL can learn/borrow some aspects of the game to help itself. If you look at Dota, off laners are a huge part of the meta game and they regularly play 1v2 or even 1v3s. On top of that, you regularly get melee carries in 2v2s or 3v3s. While the skillsets of common off laners in Dota (along with other more fundamental game differences) plays a huge part in letting them off lane so successfully, early game itemization plays a huge part of it, as well. Most notably, the existence of Stout Shield, which blocks 20 damage (when used by melee heroes) 60% of the time, which comes out to ~12 damage blocked per hit. This item only costs 250 gold and provides no other stats. Some math/comparison: Players start the game with 603 gold. Common build starts for melee heroes/off laners usually consist of Stout Shield (250) + 2~3 Branches (106~159), which provide 19 hp per branch (there are other stats but those are more or less irrelevant for this discussion) This gives them 247~194 gold for regen items, which usually means a salve (100 gold - heals 400 hp over 10 seconds; heal stopped by damage) and a set of tangos (90 gold - 3 charges that heal 115 hp per charge). So total you get ~12 damage block, 57 hp, and 845 hp worth of regen in starting items. Compare this to LoL, where assuming you take the Block mastery. If you start Bead, you get -5 damage block, 1 health regen, and 750 hp worth of regen in starting items. You also get a ward, whose value is harder to quantify. If you start Cloth, you get -5 damage block, 15 armor (which in the best case scenario is 92 EHP*) , and 750 hp worth of regen in starting items. If you start DShield, you get -13 damage block, 2 health regen, and 150 hp worth of regen. Opening item builds simply pale in comparison and imo, play a large part in what makes the 1v2 lane uncompromising. As it is now, the only champions that can reliably 1v2 are champions with some combination of long range farming abilities, innate tankiness, innate sustain. And even then, the 1v2 laner almost always has to play like a little bitch and just hang at the turret/barely in exp range and forgo getting cs until the wave is at their turret. *+ Show Spoiler + Armor increases your EHP against physical damage by 1% per point of armor. The highest base hp in the game is Gangplank at 576 hp. Adding in 4 points in durability and 1 point in veteran scars gives you 612 hp, which accounts for the 92 EHP. I didn't calculate in HP runes because to my knowledge no one really runs them; at least not often. | ||
|
sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On July 02 2013 13:57 Amui wrote: What they could do is make the block mastery twice as effective against ranged attacks, in addition to working on spells(-3 bonus on ranged autos, -3 on spells). At the cost of reducing the power of most of the ranged lane bullies(jayce, elise, kennen, possibly a few others I can't name), you give 1v2's ~5-10% additional defense against getting harassed down early game, while not significantly affecting the game past the 10 minute mark. AFAIK only jungler's, tanky solos & supports take that mastery anyways. Would also make supports stronger in a duo lane as well I guess. If you buff block much more than it already is, standard offensive mastery spec will be 17/13/0 and utility will be 0/13/17. Maybe they should push doran's shield to where Doran's Ring is now - If it were 400g, would it be feasible to start doran's shield in a 1v2 lane and have 2 pots (possibly teleporting out and coming back when you need more pots?) Perhaps on a laner with access to some kind of early sustain? | ||
onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On July 02 2013 14:21 Kupon3ss wrote: I think that's one of the fundamental differences between Dota and LoL, in Dota something that's unintended is usually readily embraced as long as its not game-breaking wheras in LoL playing the game outside of the "intended" box usually leads to a pretty swift nerf, the first cases that come to mind are AP yi and AP trynd You ever lane against an AP Trynd? That shit was annoying lol. | ||
|
Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On July 02 2013 14:38 sylverfyre wrote: If you buff block much more than it already is, standard offensive mastery spec will be 17/13/0 and utility will be 0/13/17. Maybe they should push doran's shield to where Doran's Ring is now - If it were 400g, would it be feasible to start doran's shield in a 1v2 lane and have 2 pots (possibly teleporting out and coming back when you need more pots?) Perhaps on a laner with access to some kind of early sustain? I'm actually not too worried about the implications if a team wants to force a 2v2 and run 17/13. You'll be stronger in trades, but later on, you lose either the crit masteries(not too important if you're running blue ez, but on some other's it's huge damage) as well as 4-6 arpen & executioner, without gaining very much in terms of tankiness. If people are running 17/13 and forcing 2v2's as a strategy, then that's another possible strategy added to the pool. I don't see how this is a bad idea. | ||
|
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Top: Miso Jungle: Reapered Middle: Raven AD Carry: Roar Support: StarLast There were some interesting line-ups for the teams entering the summer season of the OGN The Champions, and the line-up for Najin Black Sword looks ridiculously powerful. + Show Spoiler + CJ Entus Frost Top: Shy Jungle: CloudTemplar Middle: RapidStar AD Carry: Space Support: MadLife Middle substitute: Ganked By Mom CJ Entus Blaze Top: Flame Jungle: Helios Middle: Ambition AD Carry: Cpt Jack Support: Lustboy 함장식 AD Carry substitute: Hermes Support substitute: Muse Najin Black Sword Top: Expession Jungle: Watch Middle: SSONG AD Carry: PraY Support: Cain Middle substitute: Nagne Najin White Shield Top: Save Jungle: NoFe Middle: Ggoong AD Carry: Zefa Support: GorillA Top substitute: Chop AD Carry substitute: Locodoco MVP Ozone Top: Homme Jungle: DanDy Middle: dade AD Carry: imp Support: Mata Top substitute: Looper MVP Blue Top: Cheonju Jungle: CNyang Middle: EzHoon AD Carry: Deft Support: FLahm Top substitute: SuNo Middle/Jungle substitute: Spirit SKT T1 Top: Impact Jungle: bengi Middle: Faker AD Carry: Piglet Support: PoohManDu KT Rolster Bullets Top: inSec Jungle: KaKAO Middle: Ryu AD Carry Score Support: Mafa Top substitute: ssumday LG-IM #1 Top: Smeb Jungle: Reign Over Middle: MidKing AD Carry: Paragon Support: GGyuAng LG-IM #2 Top: Sylph Jungle: Lilac Middle: kurO AD Carry: Scarlet Support: BBuing Support substitute: Lasha HGD Top: TrAce Jungle: ActScene Middle: HooN AD Carry: LOAD Support: IceBear Eat Sleep Game Top: Miso Jungle: Reapered Middle: Raven AD Carry: Roar Support: StarLast Xenics Storm Top: Ragan Jungle: Daydream Middle: Coco AD Carry: Arrow Support: Comet Xenics Blast Top: Stark Jungle: Quality Middle: ManyReason AD Carry: Bang Support: Boink CTU Top: CTU NonameD Jungle: CTU Raccoon Middle: CTU Mima AD Carry: CTU Riris Support: CTU Wolf Middle substitute: CTU Joy Support substitute: CTU Piccaboo MiG Blitz Top: MiG Apple Jungle: MiG Prime Middle: MiG WonSeoK AD Carry: MiG GGoGGo Support: MiG Ryuna Middle substitute: MiG Bestial | ||
|
onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On July 02 2013 14:59 Letmelose wrote: Eat Sleep Game (previously SK Telecom T1 #1) had some major roster changes in their line-up. It's hard to imagine Reapered playing as a jungler, but I guess it would help him dictate the flow of the game even better. Reapered's laning has never been his greatest asset, and if we're to look at it purely from his point of view, I guess it makes sense somewhat. He's a damn smart player, but I wonder if ESG overall will benefit from these roster changes. Top: Miso Jungle: Reapered Middle: Raven AD Carry: Roar Support: StarLast There were some interesting line-ups for the teams entering the summer season of the OGN The Champions, and the line-up for Najin Black Sword looks ridiculously powerful. + Show Spoiler + CJ Entus Frost Top: Shy Jungle: CloudTemplar Middle: RapidStar AD Carry: Space Support: MadLife Middle substitute: Ganked By Mom CJ Entus Blaze Top: Flame Jungle: Helios Middle: Ambition AD Carry: Cpt Jack Support: Lustboy 함장식 AD Carry substitute: Hermes Support substitute: Muse Najin Black Sword Top: Expession Jungle: Watch Middle: SSONG AD Carry: PraY Support: Cain Middle substitute: Nagne Najin White Shield Top: Save Jungle: NoFe Middle: Ggoong AD Carry: Zefa Support: GorillA Top substitute: Chop AD Carry substitute: Locodoco MVP Ozone Top: Homme Jungle: DanDy Middle: dade AD Carry: imp Support: Mata Top substitute: Looper MVP Blue Top: Cheonju Jungle: CNyang Middle: EzHoon AD Carry: Deft Support: FLahm Top substitute: SuNo Middle/Jungle substitute: Spirit SKT T1 Top: Impact Jungle: bengi Middle: Faker AD Carry: Piglet Support: PoohManDu KT Rolster Bullets Top: inSec Jungle: KaKAO Middle: Ryu AD Carry Score Support: Mafa Top substitute: ssumday LG-IM #1 Top: Smeb Jungle: Reign Over Middle: MidKing AD Carry: Paragon Support: GGyuAng LG-IM #2 Top: Sylph Jungle: Lilac Middle: kurO AD Carry: Scarlet Support: BBuing Support substitute: Lasha HGD Top: TrAce Jungle: ActScene Middle: HooN AD Carry: LOAD Support: IceBear Eat Sleep Game Top: Miso Jungle: Reapered Middle: Raven AD Carry: Roar Support: StarLast Xenics Storm Top: Ragan Jungle: Daydream Middle: Coco AD Carry: Arrow Support: Comet Xenics Blast Top: Stark Jungle: Quality Middle: ManyReason AD Carry: Bang Support: Boink CTU Top: CTU NonameD Jungle: CTU Raccoon Middle: CTU Mima AD Carry: CTU Riris Support: CTU Wolf Middle substitute: CTU Joy Support substitute: CTU Piccaboo MiG Blitz Top: MiG Apple Jungle: MiG Prime Middle: MiG WonSeoK AD Carry: MiG GGoGGo Support: MiG Ryuna Middle substitute: MiG Bestial Bang and Boink best bot lane names. The Reapered stuff sure is interesting, I agree he should be able to shot call easier out of the Jungle. Also yeah, Sword is scary as fuck even without Maknoon. It's crazy to think how it used to be "Maknoon's Team" but now they are arguably better without him. | ||
|
sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On July 02 2013 14:50 Amui wrote: I'm actually not too worried about the implications if a team wants to force a 2v2 and run 17/13. You'll be stronger in trades, but later on, you lose either the crit masteries(not too important if you're running blue ez, but on some other's it's huge damage) as well as 4-6 arpen & executioner, without gaining very much in terms of tankiness. If people are running 17/13 and forcing 2v2's as a strategy, then that's another possible strategy added to the pool. I don't see how this is a bad idea. I'm more complaining that it degenerates the choices in masteries by making 13 defense far too powerful. Perhaps buffing something deeper down the defense tree could handle this better. | ||
|
iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On July 02 2013 14:50 Amui wrote: I'm actually not too worried about the implications if a team wants to force a 2v2 and run 17/13. You'll be stronger in trades, but later on, you lose either the crit masteries(not too important if you're running blue ez, but on some other's it's huge damage) as well as 4-6 arpen & executioner, without gaining very much in terms of tankiness. If people are running 17/13 and forcing 2v2's as a strategy, then that's another possible strategy added to the pool. I don't see how this is a bad idea. You dont lose crit mastery with 17/13/0. Can get attack speed, % armor pen, Havoc, Cit stuff, and either flat AD or butcher depending on your preferences (personally, I think flat AD better, but eh). You miss out on the flat armor pen, and executioner I guess, buts thats it. I've actually been running 17/13/0 masteries to great success on Quinn, Graves and Vayne. Lets you trade real hard pretty easy. If you get a Dorans Shield to start it is pretty disgusting, you just like take zero damage in trades. Shuts down real harrass-y Caitlyns pretty hard actually, after 5 minutes with having under full HP Dorans Shield out sustains Cloth-5pot. Outsustains DBlade unless you auto attacking 3 times every five seconds. This start gives you a toooon of HP to start game, and you win basically any trade and any all-in. It pretty sweet. I not sure I like it on Graves as much, but on Quinn and Vayne it is amazing, completely kills their early game meh-ness. | ||
|
Gahlo
United States35165 Posts
On July 02 2013 14:38 sylverfyre wrote: If you buff block much more than it already is, standard offensive mastery spec will be 17/13/0 and utility will be 0/13/17. Maybe they should push doran's shield to where Doran's Ring is now - If it were 400g, would it be feasible to start doran's shield in a 1v2 lane and have 2 pots (possibly teleporting out and coming back when you need more pots?) Perhaps on a laner with access to some kind of early sustain? I'm actually surprised we don't see more shields. You can already walk into lane shield/pot and the early game mitigation changes to it outweigh the armor it lost. | ||
|
kainzero
United States5211 Posts
On July 02 2013 14:21 Kupon3ss wrote: I think that's one of the fundamental differences between Dota and LoL, in Dota something that's unintended is usually readily embraced as long as its not game-breaking wheras in LoL playing the game outside of the "intended" box usually leads to a pretty swift nerf, the first cases that come to mind are AP yi and AP trynd It depends. Ward jumping? | ||
|
Don_Julio
2220 Posts
What's the problem about 1v2 lanes? I don't get it. It doesn't seem to be an issue in SoloQ at all. Maybe it will be but you don't even see 1v2s at challenger games. It's perfectly fine at competitive 5v5s. It enforces fast tower pushing which increases the overall pace of the game. I watched some games of the 2012 World Finals (to honor Toyz) and I was surprised to see that League was noticeably slower only a year ago. And Riot pls, don't change the whole game before Worlds. If there's need for a drastic change do it in the preseason like last time. | ||
|
Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On July 02 2013 15:07 Gahlo wrote: I'm actually surprised we don't see more shields. You can already walk into lane shield/pot and the early game mitigation changes to it outweigh the armor it lost. A big problem is that it only allows you to come into lane with 1 potion. The 10 health regen per 5 simply isn't enough to outweigh the downsides of only have 1 pot. On July 02 2013 15:17 Don_Julio wrote: Ggoong hwaiting! What's the problem about 1v2 lanes? I don't get it. It doesn't seem to be an issue in SoloQ at all. Maybe it will be but you don't even see 1v2s at challenger games. It's perfectly fine at competitive 5v5s. It enforces fast tower pushing which increases the overall pace of the game. I watched some games of the 2012 World Finals (to honor Toyz) and I was surprised to see that League was noticeably slower only a year ago. And Riot pls, don't change the whole game before Worlds. If there's need for a drastic change do it in the preseason like last time. The biggest problem I have with 1v2 lanes in the competitive scene is the fact that it really restricts which champions can be played in the non-mid solo lane. Some champions simply can't be played due to the fact that they will just get completely wrecked in a 1v2. | ||
|
cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 02 2013 14:21 Kupon3ss wrote: I think that's one of the fundamental differences between Dota and LoL, in Dota something that's unintended is usually readily embraced as long as its not game-breaking wheras in LoL playing the game outside of the "intended" box usually leads to a pretty swift nerf, the first cases that come to mind are AP yi and AP trynd Meh, the problems in LOL rarely stem from things that are seemingly mistakes, the usually stem from things "working as intended" but merely working too well. Past examples, that come to mind readily, and came after the crazy beta shit, etc, include: Metagolem, Release Graves, Release Lulu, Release Athenes, W Max Ez, Rengar, S3 Black Cleaver, S3 Warmogs (most HP items), S3 Muramana Ryze, Current(Physical) Muramana builds. ETC | ||
|
sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
Thresh is in this spot where he's incredibly powerful in pro hands, but merely pretty strong in unorganized play. Nerfing an aspect about him that is really only truly abusable by the best of the best seems like the perfect kind of nerf to hit him with. I'm more annoyed at Riot trying to 'control' the meta in questionable ways [encouragement towards 2v2 lanes being the most frustrating.] | ||
|
Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
| ||
| ||
