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United States23745 Posts
On July 02 2013 12:55 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 12:52 onlywonderboy wrote:On July 02 2013 12:45 wei2coolman wrote:On July 02 2013 12:00 nafta wrote:
No he was wrong for the simple reason that ad+supp beats anything else 2v2 easily and ad-s are generally the best tower siegers.Riot nerfed everything very fast even though ad wasn't in that bad of a spot honestly.Talon/pant were like the only legit problems.I guess ad assassins as well in general but those 2 were the scariest. Double bruiser beats ad+support in lane. But AD+support playing passive lane; and only lose slightly will be much more useful later on in the game. Problem is outside of laning phase; dual bruisers have no real sieging capabilities; other than going balls deep. Also; s3 adc's still do very little dmg compared to s2 counterparts. Especially with all these genja-eu builds that have been coming out. Especially of recent; now adc's are more so used as burst casters that can also put out auto attack damage (weixiaos varus build last night). On July 02 2013 12:44 cLutZ wrote:
By the way, how is Morello Silver IV? And how have people not just taken him to task for this. Like, if I were Riot Brass I would make him change his name immediately. No wonder he thinks Irelia and Jax are problem champions, then greenlights Aatrox. It has nothing to do with Morello being Silver IV; and more so that his idea about game designs are embarrassingly bad. I mean there is a whole balance team at Riot, Morello isn't making all of these decisions on his own. He just gets the most shit since he's the public face of balance and responds to a lot of posts Everyone gives him shit, but his opinion are just in line with the rest Riot's balance philosophy. Whether or not you agree with that is a completely different matter. Well yeah; Riot's balance philosophy makes me cry in my sleep. I still like how the 2v1 meta is coming out; before 2v1 used to be used just to shut down a solo laner; then it evolved into using to safely farm up a hyper carry; then now its being used for 3-4 minute tower timings; along with strong buff control with roaming support. I think there's still more room for innovation with 2v1 strats.
I don't mind 2v1 for fast pushes (which was one of the original reasons for 2v1. Blaze getting 4 minute towers the first time they played against TSM with Graves/Lulu and TSM having no idea what the hell to do). Farming up the hyper carry was sort of boring to watch, a lot of freezing the lane. I usually defend Riot balance more than most, but I'm sort of against them trying even harder to shut down the 2v1. I feel like it has to be a significant change at this point.
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United States47024 Posts
I don't think that 2v1 is boring or has lack of depth or anything.
The only thing that's really problematic about 2v1 is the lack of options from the standpoint of the actual 1v2 laner. And most of Riot's fixes so far have not seemed to address this fact.
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On July 02 2013 13:02 TheYango wrote:
I don't think that 2v1 is boring or has lack of depth or anything.
The only thing that's really problematic about 2v1 is the lack of options from the standpoint of the actual 1v2 laner. And most of Riot's fixes so far have not seemed to address this fact.
Well they can't without several reworks. To be good in the meta you have to:
1. Be good enough in 2v1 to not get behind.
2. Not be countered 1v1 early.
3. Not be countered 1v1 after towers start falling.
2v1 is only a problem because of fog of war, and how terribly punishing reacting to laneswaps is.
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It is so sad to me to see this argument again.
"Lets all play League of Legends! Yeah! We like it so much we'll spend hours of our time talking about it on forums!"
"By the way, the design team is shit and none of them know what they're doing!"
Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh.
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United States23745 Posts
On July 02 2013 13:02 TheYango wrote:
I don't think that 2v1 is boring or has lack of depth or anything.
The only thing that's really problematic about 2v1 is the lack of options from the standpoint of the actual 1v2 laner. And most of Riot's fixes so far have not seemed to address this fact.
Maybe with the change to Oracles in the upcoming patch we'd see more early wards cleared which would allow for more ganks. Still probably not enough. More Jungle camps or something would be better but that of course is a whole other can of worms.
Clearly we need to bring back Heart of Gold so Top laners can get it in a 2v1.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 02 2013 13:06 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:02 TheYango wrote:
I don't think that 2v1 is boring or has lack of depth or anything.
The only thing that's really problematic about 2v1 is the lack of options from the standpoint of the actual 1v2 laner. And most of Riot's fixes so far have not seemed to address this fact. Well they can't without several reworks. To be good in the meta you have to: 1. Be good enough in 2v1 to not get behind. 2. Not be countered 1v1 early. 3. Not be countered 1v1 after towers start falling. 2v1 is only a problem because of fog of war, and how terribly punishing reacting to laneswaps is.
I don't mean "options" with regard to champ selection. I mean "options" with regard to gameplay.
Even the good 1v2 laners don't do anything other than stay in lane and wait for the wave to come toward their tower.
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On July 02 2013 13:08 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:06 cLutZ wrote:On July 02 2013 13:02 TheYango wrote:
I don't think that 2v1 is boring or has lack of depth or anything.
The only thing that's really problematic about 2v1 is the lack of options from the standpoint of the actual 1v2 laner. And most of Riot's fixes so far have not seemed to address this fact. Well they can't without several reworks. To be good in the meta you have to: 1. Be good enough in 2v1 to not get behind. 2. Not be countered 1v1 early. 3. Not be countered 1v1 after towers start falling. 2v1 is only a problem because of fog of war, and how terribly punishing reacting to laneswaps is. I don't mean "options" with regard to champ selection. I mean "options" with regard to gameplay. Even the good 1v2 laners don't do anything other than stay in lane and wait for the wave to come toward their tower.
There used to be 1v2 laners that did other things, especially if they got blue. But then that was "op" or something. But in reality what you are talking then is a jungle issue + the mediocrity of a lvl 1 gank issue.
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Need to make a solo laner with very strong csing abilities, but not too amazing combat or utility wise. Something like spammable vayne q's or draven axes. Maybe quinn suppose to be the answer? Lol
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Can't this 2v1 situation be addressed through changes on the dragon? If Riot has a problem with the 2v1 meta, they should think about why the 2v2 happened at bot lane in the first place.
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On July 02 2013 13:17 wei2coolman wrote:
Need to make a solo laner with very strong csing abilities, but not too amazing combat or utility wise. Something like spammable vayne q's or draven axes. Maybe quinn suppose to be the answer? Lol
probably running quinn in a 1v2 is the same issue with running something like karthus, you can get 3 man dived really easy cause you're so squishy.
The only real gameplay variation I've seen was I think in an EU game where the irelia grabbed a red elixir and went balls deep on the enemy adc and managed to get a solo kill, but that's even more risky than normal allins are in a 1v1 scenario, and the 4 summoners vs. 2 is pretty brutal.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 02 2013 13:23 lefty wrote:
Can't this 2v1 situation be addressed through changes on the dragon? If Riot has a problem with the 2v1 meta, they should think about why the 2v2 happened at bot lane in the first place.
I think *getting rid of* 1v2 as a viable option is a cop-out solution that is probably the worst one available. Haivng variation in laning possibilities is good. I think Riot killing it entirely would be the easy way out that would ultimately be bad for the game in the long run.
The problem is that 1v2 gameplay isn't well developed. The environment of 1v2 needs to be made more hospitable to the solo laner, so that more champs can be played reasonably in a 1v2, and so the 1v2 laner has more gameplay options in the first few minutes.
Honestly, it might be the case that Riot should just revert the "bonus XP when split with multiple champs" mechanic. The mechanic originates from a time when Riot was really pushing for jungling to be optional (clearly no longer the case), and when the fundamentals of playing 2v1 lanes weren't well fleshed out. I honestly don't think it makes sense to keep it in the game anymore.
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If we all agreed that 1v2 is bad then riot could just give bonus gold exp and regen to 1v2 laners. But we don't.
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On July 02 2013 11:47 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 10:47 Dusty wrote:On July 02 2013 10:17 Scip wrote:
large part of guys worth farming up THAT much are at least partially splitpushers by nature (Tryndamere, formerly Zed), What's wrong with Zed? he's still good at splitpushing/assassinating. He's not as rape-y as he used to be. Back then you'd just absolutely destroy people before they got Zhonyas or even after they got Zhonyas/before they got 2nd item. His damage is not that beast ever since his spin has 33% longer cooldown. He's not bad but I wouldn't consider him the best splitpusher. ^^^^ Clearly a problem with the champion when you didn't take his ultimate cooldown into account o.o
Riven's ult was nerfed because she could come back to lane after killing you and hav eit up/close to up. Surely Trynd's ult allows for a greater margin of error.
On July 02 2013 12:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 11:11 NeoIllusions wrote:
I'd just like to share that Fizz is a lot of fun and he's pretty gud against a number of AD Mids (as long as you know how to trollstick when they start to aggro). But holy shit, I cannot Chum for my life. 2/10 np.
That is all. I dunno what is harder to hit; Varus ulti; or Fizz ulti.
I found I'm hitting about twice the Varus ults since the buffs.
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laning 1v2 is so =[[[[[[[[[[[
it is the worst thing in league of legends =[[[[[[[
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On July 02 2013 13:30 obesechicken13 wrote:
If we all agreed that 1v2 is bad then riot could just give bonus gold exp and regen to 1v2 laners. But we don't.
But it's not that bad imo.
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United States23745 Posts
From LemonNation's AMA
TSM at the moment is not better than us, but they have the potential to come back stronger if they work out their issues. They are having a lot of internal issues among their players at the moment, and it's not really my place to talk about that.
So if Regi gets mad and kicks someone else can we agree he's more toxic than Saint? huehue
Edit: The AMA overall is pretty good and worth a read.
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On July 02 2013 13:07 Ketara wrote:
It is so sad to me to see this argument again.
"Lets all play League of Legends! Yeah! We like it so much we'll spend hours of our time talking about it on forums!"
"By the way, the design team is shit and none of them know what they're doing!"
Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh.
So?
There are a lot of games with "accidental" mechanics that turned out to be a lot of fun. The best example I can think of is Smash Melee.
From Season 2 to Season 3, with all the tinkering they did, I really can't say I enjoy the game much more than before, nor can I say that I enjoy it any less either.
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United States23745 Posts
On July 02 2013 13:51 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:07 Ketara wrote:
It is so sad to me to see this argument again.
"Lets all play League of Legends! Yeah! We like it so much we'll spend hours of our time talking about it on forums!"
"By the way, the design team is shit and none of them know what they're doing!"
Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh. So? There are a lot of games with "accidental" mechanics that turned out to be a lot of fun. The best example I can think of is Smash Melee. From Season 2 to Season 3, with all the tinkering they did, I really can't say I enjoy the game much more than before, nor can I say that I enjoy it any less either.
If we want to keep it in the realm of MOBAs (or whatever your preferred acronym is) creep stacking and pulling camps into lane in Dota was unintended.
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What they could do is make the block mastery twice as effective against ranged attacks, in addition to working on spells(-3 bonus on ranged autos, -3 on spells). At the cost of reducing the power of most of the ranged lane bullies(jayce, elise, kennen, possibly a few others I can't name), you give 1v2's ~5-10% additional defense against getting harassed down early game, while not significantly affecting the game past the 10 minute mark.
AFAIK only jungler's, tanky solos & supports take that mastery anyways. Would also make supports stronger in a duo lane as well I guess.
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United States12679 Posts
On July 02 2013 13:30 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:23 lefty wrote:
Can't this 2v1 situation be addressed through changes on the dragon? If Riot has a problem with the 2v1 meta, they should think about why the 2v2 happened at bot lane in the first place. I think *getting rid of* 1v2 as a viable option is a cop-out solution that is probably the worst one available. Haivng variation in laning possibilities is good. I think Riot killing it entirely would be the easy way out that would ultimately be bad for the game in the long run. The problem is that 1v2 gameplay isn't well developed. The environment of 1v2 needs to be made more hospitable to the solo laner, so that more champs can be played reasonably in a 1v2, and so the 1v2 laner has more gameplay options in the first few minutes. Honestly, it might be the case that Riot should just revert the "bonus XP when split with multiple champs" mechanic. The mechanic originates from a time when Riot was really pushing for jungling to be optional (clearly no longer the case), and when the fundamentals of playing 2v1 lanes weren't well fleshed out. I honestly don't think it makes sense to keep it in the game anymore.
I agree with this completely. Killing 2v1 lanes is most definitely the wrong way to go. I still remember back in S2 when people were lamenting how static lane setups are. Having 2v1 lanes and the fact that the 2v1 lane duo has so many options and the fact that it also opens up options for the team in terms of ADC picks along with jungle control is good for the game.
However, as it is right now, the simple fact that teams can laneswap automatically nullifies a large selection of solo laners from being played simply because they cannot survive a 1v2 lane. On top of that, like Yango said, there is almost no counterplay on the part of the solo laner except to sit at his tower and wait for the wave to push. This is one reason why I really disliked Riot's limitation on consumables to 5. Sure, it made full-consumable starts weaker, but at the same time it also made it so that 1v2 solo laners had to play that much more passively due to lack of consumables. IMO, a good fix for this would be to lower DShield cost to allow for more consumables with that start and/or rework DShield as a primarily off-laner item. As it is now, DShield is a terrible item compared to other Doran's items.
I'm not sure reverting the bonus exp for duo lanes mechanic would help completely alleviate the issue. It's a start, but without some itemization and maybe turret changes I don't think all that much will change. There needs to be a way for the off laner to be able to actually do something early on - this imo is best solved by having better opening item builds catered to the off laner.
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EPT
