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Looks like we're back to status quo. Hope more of you lurkers unburrow and talk with us. :3 If you have any issues or comments about the new design, feel free to PM Neo. |
On May 16 2013 08:53 fasdaf wrote:
As far as I can see, all the numbers given so far are slightly off. You only get 17 levels of +aspd/lvl growth, and Caitlyn's old attack speed was 0.625/0.935 or about 0.6684492 (the game uses much more precision than the three digits it shows for attack speed).
This won't change the fact that the difference in endgame is minimal though.
dammit I used 18 instead of 17. in the numbers post, still largely correct though, it's not a huge difference.
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On May 16 2013 08:58 Lmui wrote:
Probably should have a tl;dr for my numbers post
Cait is generally weaker from 1-12, straight up stronger at 18 unless you have PD/Zerks/Botrk. Shiv/Zerks/botrk doesn't give you enough AS for old cait to be stronger than new cait.
As for cass, I think you'll have to build some form of CDR on her. Rylais is crucial but so is the ability to turn on anyone that jumps onto you and peel them off ASAP with the rylais.
Athenes is pretty common on her anyway.
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On May 16 2013 08:53 Parametric wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 08:50 Haasts wrote:On May 16 2013 08:28 thenexusp wrote:
No comments about Cassiopeia's E getting the single-target flag? This I feel is one of the bigger changes in this patch So, this affects Twin Fang's interaction with Rylais and ... spellvamp? Muramana? Rylais, vamp and furor boots are the ones that stick out to me.
Vamp already works as single target for her E.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 16 2013 06:36 ticklishmusic wrote:
I like that Rammus change a lot, taunting minions so annoying >_>
Keep buffing Karma pls, I want more elo
Also, Nami buffs woot, just keep buffing her please. Increased movespeed from passive means I chase almost as good as Vayne now. (Yes I play AD Nami, she honestly doesn't even really need items to be supporty her kit is so good already)
Let's talk about this!
Why run AD Nami? What makes her good? What's her auto attack range? How does her E compare to other damage steroids? Isn't her base AS low?
I'm all for non-conventional ADs with high utility ults (read: Sona)
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Baa?21248 Posts
On May 16 2013 06:58 TheYango wrote:I'm pretty sure this means that with good timing you can self-cleanse stuns by using Crucible right before they hit you.
I'm not convinced that this can be pulled off consistently.
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Doublift:"Does it have a steroid?"
Everyone else:"no"
Doublefit:"than it's shit"
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No Sej nerfs.
The free elo train has yet to be shut down :D
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Adobe AIR no longer uses the Debug Launcher and has been updated to version 3.7. This should result in increased client stability.
Debug mode tends to be more unreliable because changes from third parties that might affect LoL generally will test their products against a non debug mode. Also I think it should be much slower and unreliable due to logging messages. It seems like bad practice.
I think at least these are the reasons.
It's good to know about balance changes. I don't really feel like I care any more though. Balance patches come and go. I get the feeling the game wouldn't be significantly worse if they rarely ever balanced or only put out a tenth as many balance changes. You'd still see some really strong champions all the time in pro games. I'm still part of the brood war old guard :/
Also the game is so complicated. Changes to help the jungler ended up making them weaker.
Age 3 had a no patch period as well and it was just fine (win rates between civs did vary a bit though 45-55% I think).
Now I care more about QoL improvements. I'm an old man. Balance changes no longer excite me.
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On May 16 2013 08:38 Jojo131 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 08:34 kongoline wrote:rumble was my favourite top and champion i felt confident picking 1st and he gets gutted like that, hurts  You weren't the only one who felt that way, and I think that was the whole point of the change  I had a good feeling they weren't done with Zed quite yet, but I think nerfing both the shuriken and shadow slash was a bit harsh. One of them would've done the job imo.
well guess its time to learn kennen before he becomes fotm and eventually gets nerfed
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With normal competitive build (1,2 doran blade + infinity edge, no AS item yet), new Caitlyn should be better than the old one too.
What the nerf does is that new Caitlyn can't just clear creep and start autoattacking towers like a boss sub-level 6 anymore.
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Whats with the sudden surge of Nautlius jungle all of a sudden?
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On May 16 2013 08:44 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 08:29 Shikyo wrote:On May 16 2013 08:23 kainzero wrote:On May 16 2013 07:55 MoonBear wrote:On May 16 2013 07:23 beefhamburger wrote:On May 16 2013 07:14 Shikyo wrote:On May 16 2013 06:32 overt wrote:On May 16 2013 06:28 Shikyo wrote:
Base Attack Speed reduced to 0.625 from 0.668
I'll miss you, Caitlyn. Caitlyn is still going to be a bitch in lane. Someone should do the maths to figure out what her AS is at level 18 on 3.6 and what her AS is at level 18 on 3.7 because if she has higher AS late game it's ultimately a nerf early game and a buff late game. Her headshot procs not stacking on towers is a good change, was kind of dumb that she would always have a headshot proc if she was sieging towers. Well, she scales worse with items and the aspd mastery so she won't really have higher aspd lategame anyway. Math for 18 no runes, masteries, items: 1.075 now 1.02872 before Wait, so she does or doesn't have higher aspd lategame? According to those numbers you just wrote, her base aspd is increased at level 18 which would make her scale better with items and masteries. o.O After some consideration, Yango reminded me that it's actually a really nasty nerf because AS items scale off your base AS. Cait will still be good, but just not so good any more. Everyone just going to play Varus now. it's not as bad because they're buffing her bonus AS. all her level breakpoints with AS match up with around the time you'd get those items. you mostly get a slightly weaker early game and a very slightly weaker 6-item game. compared to graves/ez where they just gutted their BAS and didn't add any bonus AS back. Significantly weaker 6-item game* The more aspd items you get the worse her aspd will be in comparison now. If you get a new item during an aspd breakpoint it means that now you're worse than you otherwise would have been in that regard. if cait 6 item, not including masteries, is zerks/IE/PD/LW/BOTRK/(defensive item) at level 18 you have .5% AS nerf (1.743 vs 1.738) that is not significantly weaker edit: goddamn ninja mathemagicans
Hmm that's true -.- Silly me.
So basically unless you go BotRK it's just an early game nerf(being at its weakest the moment you buy new aspd items) and being marginally better for the lategame. Still lvl 18 is lvl 18 and it takes usually over 30 minutes to get there. Her laning's going to be pretty frustrating though, I feel. 0.625 base attack speed lasthitting just is such a pain.
Oh and what I learned today: Don't ragequit the support role just because you lost 5 games in a row with it. It's still the role with by far the worst players at this elo and where you can make the most difference.
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On May 16 2013 09:02 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 06:58 TheYango wrote:Active travel time changed to 0.2 seconds from variable with distance I'm pretty sure this means that with good timing you can self-cleanse stuns by using Crucible right before they hit you. I'm not convinced that this can be pulled off consistently.
Highly mechanical prop players flash malphite ults at point blank range consistently. Pretty sure it's possible to use crucible in such a way.
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Feels like TF was buffed, or at least twisted into an AD with an insane AS steroid. (See what i did there? XD)
Yeah his ult took a hit, but that AS buff with removal of CDR looks like he's a more viable ADC now lol.
Also - Adjusting recommended items for champions and maps is fucking awesome.
And finally - Crucible first buy on all defensive supports. gg no re. (Hai soraka.)
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On May 16 2013 08:58 Lmui wrote:
Probably should have a tl;dr for my numbers post
Cait is generally weaker from 1-12, straight up stronger at 18 unless you have PD/Zerks/Botrk. Shiv/Zerks/botrk doesn't give you enough AS for old cait to be stronger than new cait.
As for cass, I think you'll have to build some form of CDR on her. Rylais is crucial but so is the ability to turn on anyone that jumps onto you and peel them off ASAP with the rylais.
Cass what? You are gonna build CDR on her just for your twin fang CD if you miss? I don't understand what you are saying.
Cass has one of top kits in the game that has no synergy with CDR, but has the highest AP to damage ratio in the game.
Q: Is a DOT with duration as long as its CD, can only be reapplied not stacked
W: Is a DOT with duration as long as its CD (lasts 2 seconds after leaving patch), can only be reapplied not stacked
E: Twin fang resets to a flat .5 seconds unaffected by CDR on hitting poison target
R: works with CDR
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On May 16 2013 09:08 MooMooMugi wrote:
Whats with the sudden surge of Nautlius jungle all of a sudden?
He got buffed a few patches ago and people are only realizing now that he was good even before that.
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On May 16 2013 08:59 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 07:00 bmn wrote:Seuss wrote:
Because the moment a good jungler sees that you started without a ward in the top lane they will camp you 24/7 until either you start warding or their solo lane has a 2-4 kill lead.
Yes, I realize that it's particularly prone to jungler pressure, and I adjust my playstyle accordingly. I'm not disputing that this strategy can be punished or that it's optimal, but there's a difference between a risky start and a moronic one. Against many common junglers Quinn can disengage fairly well, and I avoid pushing lane with Q if I start dblade, and I use her W if I feel like I'm being baited. As Nunu I usually end up under my tower, not theirs, and if I started dring, it's for an easy lane where I usually can escape the gank without dying. Camping top clearly punishes a doran's start a lot, but I'm wondering why doran's items specifically are "moronic". If you're camped 24/7, the 3 or 5 potions from a boots/3 or cloth/5 start won't last long either. People rarely punish a doran's tart in silver in Silver. It's not good practice to rely on enemy mistakes when picking starting items, but that alone also hardly makes "moronic" -- and if it's effective at this level then I don't see why it would be an example of particularly bad decision-making. Besides, I do often see diamond/challenger streamers start doran's blade on top/mid champions. Yes, I'm not them, and appealing to authority is not a valid argument, but if it is such a clear-cut choice then I don't understand why they still do it and get away with it. I wouldn't personally call it "moronic" to start Doran's Blade on Quinn top, but I would call it risky well beyond its reward (in most, but not all, cases). It's bad decision-making because you're developing habits that will hinder you, not help you, as you progress out of Silver. There are better and more reliable ways for you to play the lane without losing your ability to punish the mistakes of your opponent. For example, because you have no ward you basically can't be aggressive unless your opponent needlessly pushes. If you auto-attack your opponent even once as Quinn you'll draw minion aggro, which will cause the lane to push. An experienced opponent with Rejuv + Ward + 5 Potions will happily eat one or two auto-attacks if it means they can force you to self-zone or move past the river to CS (and thus be in incredible danger). The alternative is to start with an item that allows you to also grab a ward (although professionally the support or jungler sometimes wards early for their top lane). Having both potions and a ward is significantly stronger against camping because you have a much better idea of whether or not the jungler is nearby, and after any skirmish you can heal up from a safe distance instead of being forced to either recall (and lose vital experience) or stay nearby at low health (and risk zoning or a tower dive). In the event you aren't camped you can be much more aggressive, safe in the knowledge that you can push an opponent to their tower and (provided you have decent map awareness) escape any ganks. When you see Diamond/Challenger top laners start Doran's it's probably due to circumstances. They may be confident that they're a much better player than their opponent, it may be a one-sided lane, or the enemy jungler may not be good at early ganks. Situationally Doran's starts aren't unthinkable, but for a Silver player it's likely that it isn't a matter of circumstances and mostly that you haven't reached the point where anyone will punish you for it.
I've never suggested always starting Doran's Blade top, I specifically pointed out that it depends on my enemy laner and the jungler. I'd certainly not do it against Shaco, for example, and I'd not do it against good harassers or people who force an early all-in, e.g. Panth.
The initial post I replied to didn't make the ward/non-ward distinction, and I'll concede that starting with wards is generally a better idea.
But just as you say that blindly picking Doran's Blade encourages bad habits, I'd argue that the same applies to blindly picking a safe start without anticipating the circumstances. Yes, always starting Rejuv + Ward + 5 Potions is better than always starting Doran's Blade -- but the latter is not something I ever advocated.
Being forced to be more careful about my choices (pushing the lane, being baited near possible jungler locations, etc.) is one reason why I find it interesting to vary the starting items if I feel like I can get away with it. The old 9-potion start allowed for far more errors, but it also made me pay a lot less attention to things like the wave positioning, drawing minion aggro, and so on since the penalties for a bad choice were so easily mitigated.
The last paragraph in your post does contain exactly the kind of information I was looking for; I wasn't sure whether Doran's items were considered to be bad almost unconditionally or whether they were just considered risky and situational.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On May 16 2013 09:11 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 09:02 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 16 2013 06:58 TheYango wrote:Active travel time changed to 0.2 seconds from variable with distance I'm pretty sure this means that with good timing you can self-cleanse stuns by using Crucible right before they hit you. I'm not convinced that this can be pulled off consistently. Highly mechanical prop players flash malphite ults at point blank range consistently. Pretty sure it's possible to use crucible in such a way.
malph ult is more than .2 seconds (and also has a sound effect to cue you to press flash), not to mention it's easier to flash one spell than it is to time one spell on yourself while simultaneously timing a second spell to make sure it lines up...
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Patch 3.7 Notes
Players may now disable moving their champion via right-clicking on the minimap in the options menu.
I just noticed this.
I owe someone at Riot, big time.
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EPT
