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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On May 09 2013 07:05 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 06:59 Slayer91 wrote:On May 09 2013 06:55 -Zoda- wrote:
I really don't think your level determines 100% you capacity of theorycrafting. Sure, if you're stuck in Bronze, you're definitely bad, but playing the game and analyzing from outside isn't the same thing.
When stressed ingame I personnaly do things that I would find utterly stupid when seeing it on a stream. I mean that you aren't necessarily intuitive to find the best solution in a few seconds but need a few minutes. This doesn't mean you don't understand the game imo. These analyzers aren't in the game so they have time to think, refine, calculate every stategy and come up with awesome ideas. if you need a few minutes and not a few seconds it means you didn't analyze the situation before and you need to it DOES NOT mean you are some genius who thinks slowly it just means you didn't know that shit. Anyone can learn, but potential to learn doesn't mean anything because as I said anyone can learn. if you watch something on stream its easy to see it dumb because hindsight 20/20, and when you do things that are utterly stupid its because hindsight 20/20. Making the correct decision in time means you are taking into account lots of potential factors which, if you don't and do something stupid it becomes obvious THEN. This may be one of the only times I've ever seen what I perceive my problem to be summed up. Essentially that having gamesense 'outside of the game' means nothing if you can't perform under pressure.
Not really just your problem
you could almost say that the difference between a good player and a mediocre player is 5 minutes of time travel
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Question for any high level AD mains:
When you're playing solo queue, are you supposed to rely on support to be the play maker and you just farm/poke unless you see an opportunity? I feel like mechanically my AD skills are pretty decent but my decision making and matchup knowledge is lacking.
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Riven was always good, people just didn't know, After her QoL buffs, she got nerfed like 5 times.
Irelia, one buff, 10 nerfs.
Rengar got buffed slightly, then nerfed completely (like everyone, way down below his release level)
Khazix was always strong, people just didn't realize. It's the players fault for taking 6 patches to notice, the fact remains that he was released too strong and had to be nerfed.
Zed is kinda gray territory, he wasn't touched (let's ignore that damage rebalance between q and e) for a long time but he's getting nerfed now.
Every single champion you listed is viable, and the community perceives them as balanced, that's true. (Naut was broken as fuck, though, and got nerfed. Have you forgotten?) Fiora and Syndra I feel like are a little too weak, Sej and Voli were sitting on almost 0 popularity for like 6 months. It turned out that Sej was mediocre and that Voli was strong (Again, Voli was released and then nerfed+ Show Spoiler +V1.0.0.131:
Frenzy base damage reduced to 80/125/170/215/260 from 90/140/190/240/290
Frenzy bonus health scaling reduced to 18% from 20%
V1.0.0.130: Added (original stats)
Now even if we say that all these champions, despite not being popular, were always viable and balanced (that is to say, not too weak), that's still many champs who weren't. 31 champions have been released since riven, you listed. 12, 13 if we count Zed. That's 38%~ of champions that were released balanced, over 60% which were not.
To Ketara, I'm not being a dick by calling everyone sub diamond I a bad player. It's my honest opinion, without any ill intent. I could simply say that you're not a good player if you're not diamond I, would that make me look like less a dick? Because there's nothing I can do about this, I can't simply start thinking that this game is harder than it is and that it requires high mechanical skill or something. The only things you need to be able to do to reach diamond is literally play 1-2 champions, get good cs + appropriate map pressure (unless you're AD, in that case CS is all you need) and never die. You don't even need to be fulfilling your max potential, just do things reasonably well. All you need to do is make good decisions.
On May 09 2013 07:20 Mondeezy wrote:
Question for any high level AD mains:
When you're playing solo queue, are you supposed to rely on support to be the play maker and you just farm/poke unless you see an opportunity? I feel like mechanically my AD skills are pretty decent but my decision making and matchup knowledge is lacking.
Obviously, who your AD is and who your opponent's AD is important.
If you're with Blitz/Taric/Leona, you should let them make the plays and follow them up. If you're with Janna/Soraka/Lulu/Sona, it's your job to harass people down and take control of the lane.
If you're Cait, though, for example, you should always be harassing because you have so much range. Unfortunately, I can't really say much else. It all depends on the match ups.
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On May 09 2013 06:44 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 06:30 Ketara wrote:On May 09 2013 06:25 OutlaW- wrote:On May 09 2013 06:15 Ketara wrote:On May 09 2013 05:36 OutlaW- wrote:On May 09 2013 05:22 Ketara wrote:I think the whole "you have to be a high level player to understand the game" argument is complete bullshit, but that's just my two cents. Wasn't the guy who popularized AP Tryndamere like, low plat? Monte was yelling about jungle Nasus more than a month before Diamondprox started doing it and we all know Monte is bad. It's perfectly understandable that somebody can have a high level understanding and concept for what's going on while they're watching replays, but a low level capability for making their hands do the things with the key hitting and the timing and the multitasking. Wave good case in point here too. Makes perfect sense to have team analysts. I think the mechanical skill needed to execute things in League is so low that someone who can't get to at least plat has no idea what he's talking about. Just because some low-level theory got proven to be valid for higher levels doesn't really mean much. You only remember/hear about the things that were correct, but for every one like that there are hundreds that were blatantly wrong. A broken clock is still correct at least twice a day, as they say. Obviously you can have great understanding of the game without having the skill to use it, but I think that almost doesn't apply to League of legends. Nothing is hard to execute, if you can't do something properly then that means you're lacking in some sort of knowledge. I doubt a gold analyst will be better than a diamond analyst. It might not be a necessity, but it's definitely not bad. In my opinion, anyone not Diamond I (skill level) is bad. You may call me retarded or way too hard, but that's just what I think. You're literally saying that 99.9% of players, including a lot of professional players, are bad. Diamond 1 doesn't even make up 0.5% of the community. You're also saying that probably all of the professional casters/commentators, as well as probably all of the game design and balance team, don't know what they're doing/talking about. You're also probably saying that all of the Asian teams coaches/analysts/what have you don't know what they're doing/talking about. This viewpoint is just empirically wrong, and I would challenge you to change your way of thinking. Why would I change my way of thinking? I don't think I'm wrong. In fact, I think I'm right. You can be a bad player and a good analyst/coach/commentator. I feel like you just skipped over the first 80% of my post. If you're a player and you're not Diamond I, you're bad. I do think that professional casters/commentators (everybody except Jatt) are bad players. I disagree with most of the choices of the balance team, too. They just nerf every problem instead of dealing with it normally. You can be a good champion designer and a bad player. I think the very idea that somebody could know how to design the game but not how to play the game is completely ridiculous, but that's just me. If that was true, you'd see a lot more champions who would be hilariously OP/UP at release. You don't. Even in the terms we talk about things being too good or not too good enough, they never break like 40-60% winrates. If somebody had no idea how to play the game but was designing champions they'd be putting out characters that exceed that variance by a lot. Just because you disagree with their ideas doesn't mean they're wrong. Your entire mindset about this smacks of egotism, to me. Releasing imbalanced characters has nothing to do with how good they are as players. But just to argue your point, you will see that many, many, many champions were blatantly broken on release and had to be nerfed many times. Riven, Irelia, Vayne, Liss I think is too strong as well, Rengar, Khazix, Zed, Quinn (she already got 4 buffs so obviously they think that they released her way too weak), Ahri, Diana, Lulu, Zyra, Thresh, Nocturne, rework Kat.. And that's not all. Maybe you don't notice the nerfs, but they exist. I actually find it hard to remember when Riot released a champion and didn't touch him for at least 3 months. Maybe that never happened. There's no need to insult me just because I have a different opinion than you, either. "this guy thinks everyone is bad, he must be so egotistical and jerking his dick off trying to prove how good he is" Sure.. It's not like I could possibly have other reasons, no. I'm a big asshole who just wants to stroke his own ego.
Riven got hotfixed a week after she came out be cause she was so bad.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
LoL is sort of like how you apply what you know and then doing it. Sometimes you go wrong in the knowing part, sometimes it's the doing part. Sometimes you don't know because you can't think fast enough, sometimes you fail because you just don't know at all.Sometimes you fail at the doing because you physically can't, sometimes you're just bad.
A lot of LoL is just very fast decision making and execution at rapid speed. To be a bit 'teacher taling about exams' here, it's like LoL consists of 80% bookwork and 20% actual real thinking. A lot of things like laning, knowing your positioning, movements, etc. is just basic mechanics and fundamentals and know how to respond. It's just that there's so much of it that no one is ever really at the level where they know 100% what to do. But it's still very much "bookwork".
At its absolute basics, it's just a whole lot of decision making which often actually has a "right" answer. It's just having to make loads of those decisions all the time. Each decision has its own impact, large or small. And what you want is for the total impact to be positive.
On May 09 2013 07:20 Mondeezy wrote:
Question for any high level AD mains:
When you're playing solo queue, are you supposed to rely on support to be the play maker and you just farm/poke unless you see an opportunity? I feel like mechanically my AD skills are pretty decent but my decision making and matchup knowledge is lacking.
It depends a lot on both how your laning is working out for you, and how the other side is doing. There are some AD Carries you can very much make your own plays. For example, with Cait you can striaght up pure mechanics last hit and harass the other side down, grinding them down. Cut of movement with traps, punish them constantly with autos and Piltover Peacemaker. Very support independent. Other times you may feel like you can't do those things yourself because it would put you in too much danger and your support isn't giving you any lane presence. In which case, just farm it out and let your superior mechanics win teamfights. Maybe you feel like you have a strong mid game and if you're in a duo you can make mid-game plays. So take a tower fast and start forcing 5-man LoL.
In other words, assess the situation and go with the decision that has the highest consistent payoff for you.
But if you're like 1k elo above everyone you play you can straight up 1v2 the lane all by yourself. So there's that.
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On May 09 2013 07:09 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 07:00 Capriccioso wrote:On May 09 2013 06:49 Requizen wrote:On May 09 2013 06:47 NeoIllusions wrote:On May 09 2013 06:37 Capriccioso wrote:
It might sound elitist, but I do agree that anyone below Diamond 1 is "bad." Hell, I would even even stretch it to around D1 50 LP. After all, D1 0 LP is around where 2k - 2.1k was early Season 3. However, being "bad" is not a problem. I got challenger and I still think I'm bad at this game and am constantly trying to find holes to my play. The problem is when people think they are good and become complacent where they are at. Having the attitude that oneself is always bad, never being satisfied, and always looking for ways to improve will help you get to the top. I think that this attitude is shared between most high elo/professional players. Not enough pros on NA think like this. It's a problem. Complacency is always a problem. Double "I'm the best everyone else is trash" Lift When I watch Liftlift stream, he basically calls himself bad every game he plays, so yeah... Why does Azubu.tv exist? Why can't everything just be on twitch so it's easy to follow all the pros you want. I'm only half-joking. I mean just take a look at him back in his Curse days. lololol When Double sat down and actually thought about what kind of personality he wanted to be known for, he didn't want to go the route of the Koreans (quite and humble) which is who he really is. This flamboyant front is that, just a front. If you want to anti-CLG, go right ahead. But calling out Double on his "trashtalk" is just ignorance. ty
If you repeat a lie no matter how blatant the lie it starts to become the truth for you. You always go through peaks and troughs in life but extended regression is something that should be looked at with worry. Continuing a lie isn't going to change that. At the same time losing confidence in your ability to perpetuate it might not help either. Either way change has to occur.
ps: I like double, reminds me a bit of myself in a way.
ps2: This whole discussion about understanding is rather perplexing. When did theorycrafting become so taboo. It was always a case where people were able to theorycraft way above their actual level of play but you could never assume something was valid until proven to be. It's same way science works. You observe and then attempt to make a conclusion based on what the observations are but you know you can't assume that these conclusions hold for everything so you keep going redefining what your initial conclusions were while you get new information. Acting like only "top level players" can do this is rather silly when I believe most top level players are less intelligent than people on forums such as these. In fact I'd say some pro players are downright stupid.
ps3: Now that I think about it the way we define intelligence seems rather rudimentary and vague. Hmmm
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On May 09 2013 07:23 OutlaW- wrote:Riven was always good, people just didn't know, After her QoL buffs, she got nerfed like 5 times. Irelia, one buff, 10 nerfs. Rengar got buffed slightly, then nerfed completely (like everyone, way down below his release level) Khazix was always strong, people just didn't realize. It's the players fault for taking 6 patches to notice, the fact remains that he was released too strong and had to be nerfed. Zed is kinda gray territory, he wasn't touched (let's ignore that damage rebalance between q and e) for a long time but he's getting nerfed now. Every single champion you listed is viable, and the community perceives them as balanced, that's true. (Naut was broken as fuck, though, and got nerfed. Have you forgotten?) Fiora and Syndra I feel like are a little too weak, Sej and Voli were sitting on almost 0 popularity for like 6 months. It turned out that Sej was mediocre and that Voli was strong (Again, Voli was released and then nerfed + Show Spoiler +V1.0.0.131:
Frenzy base damage reduced to 80/125/170/215/260 from 90/140/190/240/290
Frenzy bonus health scaling reduced to 18% from 20%
V1.0.0.130: Added (original stats) Viktor, while certainly viable, isn't popular either. Now even if we say that all these champions, despite not being popular, were always viable and balanced (that is to say, not too weak), that's still many champs who weren't. 31 champions have been released since riven, you listed. 12, 13 if we count Zed. That's 38%~ of champions that were released balanced, over 60% which were not.
Riven was complete shit until she got QoL buffs due to being so buggy.
Irelia's been nerfed a shitton of times, but she also came out in 2010. So if you really want to go all the way back to 2010 and start listing, you'll find she's an exception not the rule.
Rengar was completely broken, yes. Even Riot admits that.
Kha'zix has been nerfed only once; Zed's been changed more than Kha has.
Naut was really strong, yes, but he wasn't touched until about 3 months after his release, which was your metric for being "balanced." Even then, he wasn't meaningfully nerfed until 5 months after release. Voli honestly was pretty mediocre after release. Yes, Frenzy was nerfed, but everything else was buffed. Voli wasn't really strong until S3 item and damage changes hit. I don't understand how you're measuring "balanced" and "not balanced."
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I would argue that Kha'Zix became significantly stronger just as much due to people "figuring him out" as he did because of S3 changes. S3 was really kind to people who like tear and it was really kind to AD casters. Also I'd argue that in a case like Kha'Zix who doesn't see lots of play until three-four months after release you'd have to factor in all of the nerfs to other champions which allowed Kha'Zix, once discovered and unintentionally buffed by S3 changes, to burst through as a really strong pick.
I would also argue that lots of the champion buffs/nerfs that we see are largely due to Riot's patch tendencies. The community in general tends to zero in on a handful of champions that are "omg op the best" and it leaves lots of champions ignored. We have no way of knowing if champions who got buffed after release were truly UP or if people just didn't know how to play them or ignored them because they perceived other champions as better. We don't really know if champions like Zyra who got nerfed almost immediately after release were truly as broken as the community perceived or if people just weren't used to playing against them.
I think great examples of this are Yorick, who was released and deemed UP in his first day. Later that week people started figuring out how to play him and how he works and then Riot released a massive buff to him that was probably unneeded since people had finally figured him out just prior to the buff. Rengar is another example who was viewed as awful, then people built him AP and realized he was the shit, and then Riot buffed AD Rengar (and then in the following patch nerfed AP Rengar...then later nerfed Rengar in general a lot). It's entirely possible that release Rengar would've been 100% fine even built AD and is in fact likely that release Rengar was stronger than current Rengar (even though release Rengar was widely regarded as UP).
I don't know what I'm really arguing. I'm not arguing that Riot understands their game, I don't think they do. I think Riot responds too heavily to their community, I think Riot patches their game too often. I think the community in general takes really black and white positions on champions especially right after they're released (it's either OP or UP there is no middle ground!!). I've been guilty of this too, but yeah. I will suggest for the millionth time on TL that it would be awesome of Riot to just not patch the game at all for like three months just so we can see what happens.
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On May 09 2013 07:25 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 06:44 OutlaW- wrote:On May 09 2013 06:30 Ketara wrote:On May 09 2013 06:25 OutlaW- wrote:On May 09 2013 06:15 Ketara wrote:On May 09 2013 05:36 OutlaW- wrote:On May 09 2013 05:22 Ketara wrote:I think the whole "you have to be a high level player to understand the game" argument is complete bullshit, but that's just my two cents. Wasn't the guy who popularized AP Tryndamere like, low plat? Monte was yelling about jungle Nasus more than a month before Diamondprox started doing it and we all know Monte is bad. It's perfectly understandable that somebody can have a high level understanding and concept for what's going on while they're watching replays, but a low level capability for making their hands do the things with the key hitting and the timing and the multitasking. Wave good case in point here too. Makes perfect sense to have team analysts. I think the mechanical skill needed to execute things in League is so low that someone who can't get to at least plat has no idea what he's talking about. Just because some low-level theory got proven to be valid for higher levels doesn't really mean much. You only remember/hear about the things that were correct, but for every one like that there are hundreds that were blatantly wrong. A broken clock is still correct at least twice a day, as they say. Obviously you can have great understanding of the game without having the skill to use it, but I think that almost doesn't apply to League of legends. Nothing is hard to execute, if you can't do something properly then that means you're lacking in some sort of knowledge. I doubt a gold analyst will be better than a diamond analyst. It might not be a necessity, but it's definitely not bad. In my opinion, anyone not Diamond I (skill level) is bad. You may call me retarded or way too hard, but that's just what I think. You're literally saying that 99.9% of players, including a lot of professional players, are bad. Diamond 1 doesn't even make up 0.5% of the community. You're also saying that probably all of the professional casters/commentators, as well as probably all of the game design and balance team, don't know what they're doing/talking about. You're also probably saying that all of the Asian teams coaches/analysts/what have you don't know what they're doing/talking about. This viewpoint is just empirically wrong, and I would challenge you to change your way of thinking. Why would I change my way of thinking? I don't think I'm wrong. In fact, I think I'm right. You can be a bad player and a good analyst/coach/commentator. I feel like you just skipped over the first 80% of my post. If you're a player and you're not Diamond I, you're bad. I do think that professional casters/commentators (everybody except Jatt) are bad players. I disagree with most of the choices of the balance team, too. They just nerf every problem instead of dealing with it normally. You can be a good champion designer and a bad player. I think the very idea that somebody could know how to design the game but not how to play the game is completely ridiculous, but that's just me. If that was true, you'd see a lot more champions who would be hilariously OP/UP at release. You don't. Even in the terms we talk about things being too good or not too good enough, they never break like 40-60% winrates. If somebody had no idea how to play the game but was designing champions they'd be putting out characters that exceed that variance by a lot. Just because you disagree with their ideas doesn't mean they're wrong. Your entire mindset about this smacks of egotism, to me. Releasing imbalanced characters has nothing to do with how good they are as players. But just to argue your point, you will see that many, many, many champions were blatantly broken on release and had to be nerfed many times. Riven, Irelia, Vayne, Liss I think is too strong as well, Rengar, Khazix, Zed, Quinn (she already got 4 buffs so obviously they think that they released her way too weak), Ahri, Diana, Lulu, Zyra, Thresh, Nocturne, rework Kat.. And that's not all. Maybe you don't notice the nerfs, but they exist. I actually find it hard to remember when Riot released a champion and didn't touch him for at least 3 months. Maybe that never happened. There's no need to insult me just because I have a different opinion than you, either. "this guy thinks everyone is bad, he must be so egotistical and jerking his dick off trying to prove how good he is" Sure.. It's not like I could possibly have other reasons, no. I'm a big asshole who just wants to stroke his own ego. Riven got hotfixed a week after she came out be cause she was so bad.
People were building Warmog's and Atma's on her, nobody understood how to really play her either. She got buffed because Riot thought she was weak, then when people realized how incredibly strong she was if you abused her right and built straight AD, Riot unleashed the nerf bat on her. I don't really think that's understanding the game or being competent designers/balancers.
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On May 09 2013 07:12 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 07:01 Simberto wrote:On May 09 2013 06:41 wei2coolman wrote:On May 09 2013 06:35 upperbound wrote:On May 09 2013 06:24 wei2coolman wrote:
Isn't that around 300 AD on urgot?
So 250% crit, is 750? Not too far off? Yeah but the target should still have at least 35-40 armor left even worst case. Also, this was in ARAM, just to cut off further doubts about circumstances. Could be armor reduction due to other champions on your team? Lvl 18 Urgot (118) With IE (70), Black Cleaver (50), Manamune (20+2% mana, lets say ~50 total), Pickaxe (25) and Longsword (10) Would be a total of ~323 AD without runes or masteries. Masteries grant 15 AD, 6% dmg against targets below 50%, 2% total damage, 5% crit damage. 8% Armorpen, 5 Armorpen. Runes also provide AD or Armorpen. There might also be critdamage here. 800 crit doesn't seem too far off depending on enemy armor. And apparently since it happened it was probably possible. Let's do the math through As above, 323 AD from base+items 15 AD from masteries 0.95*9+2.25*3 from runes 8% additional damage from masteries 5% crit damage Total pre-mitigation damage is (323+15+9*0.95+3*2.25)*2.55*1.08 = 973 The armor needed to mitgate 973 to 800 (post-penetration) is (100-100*800/973)*973/800 = 21.7With 5 | 8% natural arpen from masteries, the pre-penetration value is (21.7+5) / 0.92 = 29.0 So now the question is can you shred 100 armor to 29.0. With BC, Urgot E, and some other friendly effects, it is definitely doable. nid+renekton will do this easily, as will several other combinations of armor shred effects.
Well with a full arpen page, an Urgot with BC and his E takes someone down to 21 armor, but that trades 19 arpen for 15 AD, but then factor in the 6% damage for below 50% and the 1-3% raw damage mastery and we're probably back above it.
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United States37500 Posts
On May 09 2013 07:33 overt wrote:
I would argue that Kha'Zix became significantly stronger just as much due to people "figuring him out" as he did because of S3 changes. S3 was really kind to people who like tear and it was really kind to AD casters. Also I'd argue that in a case like Kha'Zix who doesn't see lots of play until three-four months after release you'd have to factor in all of the nerfs to other champions which allowed Kha'Zix, once discovered and unintentionally buffed by S3 changes, to burst through as a really strong pick.
I would also argue that lots of the champion buffs/nerfs that we see are largely due to Riot's patch tendencies. The community in general tends to zero in on a handful of champions that are "omg op the best" and it leaves lots of champions ignored. We have no way of knowing if champions who got buffed after release were truly UP or if people just didn't know how to play them or ignored them because they perceived other champions as better. We don't really know if champions like Zyra who got nerfed almost immediately after release were truly as broken as the community perceived or if people just weren't used to playing against them.
I think great examples of this are Yorick, who was released and deemed UP in his first day. Later that week people started figuring out how to play him and how he works and then Riot released a massive buff to him that was probably unneeded since people had finally figured him out just prior to the buff. Rengar is another example who was viewed as awful, then people built him AP and realized he was the shit, and then Riot buffed AD Rengar (and then in the following patch nerfed AP Rengar...then later nerfed Rengar in general a lot). It's entirely possible that release Rengar would've been 100% fine even built AD and is in fact likely that release Rengar was stronger than current Rengar (even though release Rengar was widely regarded as UP).
I don't know what I'm really arguing. I'm not arguing that Riot understands their game, I don't think they do. I think Riot responds too heavily to their community, I think Riot patches their game too often. I think the community in general takes really black and white positions on champions especially right after they're released (it's either OP or UP there is no middle ground!!). I've been guilty of this too, but yeah. I will suggest for the millionth time on TL that it would be awesome of Riot to just not patch the game at all for like three months just so we can see what happens.
See: Irelia (E max, Q max were common before settling on W max) and Riven (l0l, build Atmog's, "i can't do any damage")
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On May 09 2013 07:00 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 07:00 Capriccioso wrote:On May 09 2013 06:49 Requizen wrote:On May 09 2013 06:47 NeoIllusions wrote:On May 09 2013 06:37 Capriccioso wrote:
It might sound elitist, but I do agree that anyone below Diamond 1 is "bad." Hell, I would even even stretch it to around D1 50 LP. After all, D1 0 LP is around where 2k - 2.1k was early Season 3. However, being "bad" is not a problem. I got challenger and I still think I'm bad at this game and am constantly trying to find holes to my play. The problem is when people think they are good and become complacent where they are at. Having the attitude that oneself is always bad, never being satisfied, and always looking for ways to improve will help you get to the top. I think that this attitude is shared between most high elo/professional players. Not enough pros on NA think like this. It's a problem. Complacency is always a problem. Double "I'm the best everyone else is trash" Lift When I watch Liftlift stream, he basically calls himself bad every game he plays, so yeah... Why does Azubu.tv exist? Why can't everything just be on twitch so it's easy to follow all the pros you want. I'm only half-joking. It shouldn't even be a half-joke. Monopolies kill ingenuity or w/e, but srsly just go to Twitch plz. My convenience > all.
Twitch wouldn't be this popular if own3d.tv didn't mismanage itself. There was a lot of drama about it at the time. One of the big ones was that it didn't pay a lot of people. It's a shame as it was a pretty decent competitor to twitch.tv at the time.
Azubu.tv, on the other hand, is just plain lacking. There are a few things missing from it to really draw people to it(pop out option for example for me is huge not to have). Not to mention there's not much activity there by the streamers anyways.
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I don't really care about # tweaking like after the Kat remake. There are some champs that never should have been released no matter what the numbers are.
Riven, Rengar, and Zed are perfect examples.
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United States47024 Posts
Navi was already getting freelo with Riven before the hotfix. She was not bad. Nobody else had figured out that BT/LW/GA were the way to go on her and not Atmogs, which is why she seemed bad.
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On May 09 2013 07:33 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 07:25 Gahlo wrote:On May 09 2013 06:44 OutlaW- wrote:On May 09 2013 06:30 Ketara wrote:On May 09 2013 06:25 OutlaW- wrote:On May 09 2013 06:15 Ketara wrote:On May 09 2013 05:36 OutlaW- wrote:On May 09 2013 05:22 Ketara wrote:I think the whole "you have to be a high level player to understand the game" argument is complete bullshit, but that's just my two cents. Wasn't the guy who popularized AP Tryndamere like, low plat? Monte was yelling about jungle Nasus more than a month before Diamondprox started doing it and we all know Monte is bad. It's perfectly understandable that somebody can have a high level understanding and concept for what's going on while they're watching replays, but a low level capability for making their hands do the things with the key hitting and the timing and the multitasking. Wave good case in point here too. Makes perfect sense to have team analysts. I think the mechanical skill needed to execute things in League is so low that someone who can't get to at least plat has no idea what he's talking about. Just because some low-level theory got proven to be valid for higher levels doesn't really mean much. You only remember/hear about the things that were correct, but for every one like that there are hundreds that were blatantly wrong. A broken clock is still correct at least twice a day, as they say. Obviously you can have great understanding of the game without having the skill to use it, but I think that almost doesn't apply to League of legends. Nothing is hard to execute, if you can't do something properly then that means you're lacking in some sort of knowledge. I doubt a gold analyst will be better than a diamond analyst. It might not be a necessity, but it's definitely not bad. In my opinion, anyone not Diamond I (skill level) is bad. You may call me retarded or way too hard, but that's just what I think. You're literally saying that 99.9% of players, including a lot of professional players, are bad. Diamond 1 doesn't even make up 0.5% of the community. You're also saying that probably all of the professional casters/commentators, as well as probably all of the game design and balance team, don't know what they're doing/talking about. You're also probably saying that all of the Asian teams coaches/analysts/what have you don't know what they're doing/talking about. This viewpoint is just empirically wrong, and I would challenge you to change your way of thinking. Why would I change my way of thinking? I don't think I'm wrong. In fact, I think I'm right. You can be a bad player and a good analyst/coach/commentator. I feel like you just skipped over the first 80% of my post. If you're a player and you're not Diamond I, you're bad. I do think that professional casters/commentators (everybody except Jatt) are bad players. I disagree with most of the choices of the balance team, too. They just nerf every problem instead of dealing with it normally. You can be a good champion designer and a bad player. I think the very idea that somebody could know how to design the game but not how to play the game is completely ridiculous, but that's just me. If that was true, you'd see a lot more champions who would be hilariously OP/UP at release. You don't. Even in the terms we talk about things being too good or not too good enough, they never break like 40-60% winrates. If somebody had no idea how to play the game but was designing champions they'd be putting out characters that exceed that variance by a lot. Just because you disagree with their ideas doesn't mean they're wrong. Your entire mindset about this smacks of egotism, to me. Releasing imbalanced characters has nothing to do with how good they are as players. But just to argue your point, you will see that many, many, many champions were blatantly broken on release and had to be nerfed many times. Riven, Irelia, Vayne, Liss I think is too strong as well, Rengar, Khazix, Zed, Quinn (she already got 4 buffs so obviously they think that they released her way too weak), Ahri, Diana, Lulu, Zyra, Thresh, Nocturne, rework Kat.. And that's not all. Maybe you don't notice the nerfs, but they exist. I actually find it hard to remember when Riot released a champion and didn't touch him for at least 3 months. Maybe that never happened. There's no need to insult me just because I have a different opinion than you, either. "this guy thinks everyone is bad, he must be so egotistical and jerking his dick off trying to prove how good he is" Sure.. It's not like I could possibly have other reasons, no. I'm a big asshole who just wants to stroke his own ego. Riven got hotfixed a week after she came out be cause she was so bad. People were building Warmog's and Atma's on her, nobody understood how to really play her either. She got buffed because Riot thought she was weak, then when people realized how incredibly strong she was if you abused her right and built straight AD, Riot unleashed the nerf bat on her. I don't really think that's understanding the game or being competent designers/balancers.
Riven hotfix:+ Show Spoiler +Stats:
Attack speed per level increased to 3.5 from 2.9.
Base armor increased to 15 from 12.
Broken Wings: Bonus attack damage ratio increased to 0.7 from 0.6.
Ki Burst: Cast time reduced to 0.25 from 0.5.
Valor:
Shield strength increased to 60/90/120/150/180 from 40/70/100/130/160.
Cooldown reduced to 10/9/8/7/6 seconds from 11/10/9/8/7.
Wind Slash:
Cast time reduced to 0.25 from 0.5.
Projectile speed increased to 2200 from 2000.
Every single one of those changes are on live right now (her shield is actually stronger now) and she is nowhere near being "broken." She has had one nerf patch, which was 7 patches after her release, which is ~3 months after release. Even that patch wasn't a complete nerf. They moved damage from her W to Q.+ Show Spoiler +Movement speed reduced to 320 from 325.
Base health regen reduced to 10.4 per 5 seconds from 12.
Health regen per level reduced to 0.9 per 5 seconds from 1.0.
Broken Wings base damage increased to 30/55/80/105/130 from 30/50/70/90/110.
Ki Burst base damage reduced to 50/80/110/140/170 from 50/90/130/170/210. On May 09 2013 07:35 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 07:33 overt wrote:
I would argue that Kha'Zix became significantly stronger just as much due to people "figuring him out" as he did because of S3 changes. S3 was really kind to people who like tear and it was really kind to AD casters. Also I'd argue that in a case like Kha'Zix who doesn't see lots of play until three-four months after release you'd have to factor in all of the nerfs to other champions which allowed Kha'Zix, once discovered and unintentionally buffed by S3 changes, to burst through as a really strong pick.
I would also argue that lots of the champion buffs/nerfs that we see are largely due to Riot's patch tendencies. The community in general tends to zero in on a handful of champions that are "omg op the best" and it leaves lots of champions ignored. We have no way of knowing if champions who got buffed after release were truly UP or if people just didn't know how to play them or ignored them because they perceived other champions as better. We don't really know if champions like Zyra who got nerfed almost immediately after release were truly as broken as the community perceived or if people just weren't used to playing against them.
I think great examples of this are Yorick, who was released and deemed UP in his first day. Later that week people started figuring out how to play him and how he works and then Riot released a massive buff to him that was probably unneeded since people had finally figured him out just prior to the buff. Rengar is another example who was viewed as awful, then people built him AP and realized he was the shit, and then Riot buffed AD Rengar (and then in the following patch nerfed AP Rengar...then later nerfed Rengar in general a lot). It's entirely possible that release Rengar would've been 100% fine even built AD and is in fact likely that release Rengar was stronger than current Rengar (even though release Rengar was widely regarded as UP).
I don't know what I'm really arguing. I'm not arguing that Riot understands their game, I don't think they do. I think Riot responds too heavily to their community, I think Riot patches their game too often. I think the community in general takes really black and white positions on champions especially right after they're released (it's either OP or UP there is no middle ground!!). I've been guilty of this too, but yeah. I will suggest for the millionth time on TL that it would be awesome of Riot to just not patch the game at all for like three months just so we can see what happens. See: Irelia (E max, Q max were common before settling on W max) and Riven (l0l, build Atmog's, "i can't do any damage")
wasn't E max somewhat legit on release 'cause E had crazy ratios and base damages?
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On May 09 2013 07:30 Numy wrote:
ps2: This whole discussion about understanding is rather perplexing. When did theorycrafting become so taboo. It was always a case where people were able to theorycraft way above their actual level of play but you could never assume something was valid until proven to be. It's same way science works. You observe and then attempt to make a conclusion based on what the observations are but you know you can't assume that these conclusions hold for everything so you keep going redefining what your initial conclusions were while you get new information. Acting like only "top level players" can do this is rather silly when I believe most top level players are less intelligent than people on forums such as these. In fact I'd say some pro players are downright stupid.
ps3: Now that I think about it the way we define intelligence seems rather rudimentary and vague. Hmmm
One of the problems is that people use theorycraft as an alternative to just playing or trying to prove things themselves. You read stuff on, say, Official Riot Forums or Reddit and you feel like you've lost braincells or something. Other times, people talk about things but they don't look at it the right way.
If you've played Magic the Gathering you might know it as players saying why their latest new idea is the best one ever. Maybe it's some janky combo they thought of. Maybe they thing their latest bew is really awesome. Or they can tweak a netdeck better than actual pros. But a lot of the time it just ends up being a case of "you just made a deck that is strictly inferior to something else", or "you're trying to mitigate the downside of bad cards to maybe do something cute". But people will swear by them and thing it's amazing because they pulled it off before.
Proplayers can be bad at times of that there is no doubt. However, there is a difference between the average person (and do realise average in LoL really does mean unranked or sub-1200 considering Silver is already top 20% or something) and the Challenger Tier people. They can just see things on a completely different level than others. I feel really fortunate at times I was able to learn from some really good people on TL because it helped me realise how much I was missing when I tried thinking about things. I still think I'm bad tbh.
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If you don't think you're bad you're terrible
even at the pro levels there is a massive disparity in skill level
lets say CW old mid vs bjergsen lolololol
or even some NA mid like nyjacky or link who are pretty solid compared to bjergsen/froggen/xpeke/alex ich
any jungler vs diamondprox etc
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On May 09 2013 07:19 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 07:05 WaveofShadow wrote:On May 09 2013 06:59 Slayer91 wrote:On May 09 2013 06:55 -Zoda- wrote:
I really don't think your level determines 100% you capacity of theorycrafting. Sure, if you're stuck in Bronze, you're definitely bad, but playing the game and analyzing from outside isn't the same thing.
When stressed ingame I personnaly do things that I would find utterly stupid when seeing it on a stream. I mean that you aren't necessarily intuitive to find the best solution in a few seconds but need a few minutes. This doesn't mean you don't understand the game imo. These analyzers aren't in the game so they have time to think, refine, calculate every stategy and come up with awesome ideas. if you need a few minutes and not a few seconds it means you didn't analyze the situation before and you need to it DOES NOT mean you are some genius who thinks slowly it just means you didn't know that shit. Anyone can learn, but potential to learn doesn't mean anything because as I said anyone can learn. if you watch something on stream its easy to see it dumb because hindsight 20/20, and when you do things that are utterly stupid its because hindsight 20/20. Making the correct decision in time means you are taking into account lots of potential factors which, if you don't and do something stupid it becomes obvious THEN. This may be one of the only times I've ever seen what I perceive my problem to be summed up. Essentially that having gamesense 'outside of the game' means nothing if you can't perform under pressure. this is one of 2 things a: you're not taking into account all the factors because your brain is slacking off and being lazy in general. This is just a general health thing and more to do with being not tired/eating well/not stressed blah blah b: you don't understand the situation well enough to make a decision without having hindsight on your side i.e imagine you have some equation which you don't know how to solve. Say you're dumb as shit and can't solve quadratic equations. Once someone tells you what does solve the equation its obvious but at the time you had no idea. the general thing to do here if you CAN see the problem after the game you need to analyse it right then and once you have a full understanding of it you won't need more than a few second to make the decision. its really not a "oh my old bones can't keep up with you young whippsnappers" situation which pretty much all "theorycrafters" tend to fall back on
Its funny you mention that because I was thinking of saying something like that even though I know my skill level is more than likely independent of my age.
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On May 09 2013 06:06 Amui wrote:
I think that this is roughly the same for LoL. Until you get to at minimum plat level mechanics(whether past or present doesn't really matter, because understanding doesn't fade with time unlike mechanics), you don't really understand the game. The ability to look at a comp, and figure out exactly why they drafted the way they did, understanding map movement, presence, relative strengths and so on doesn't come without either watching a TON of games(not streams, you need the spectator client to see the whole picture) or else actually playing the game at a high level.
all the stuff you just mentioned under ability is completely different in 5s compared to solo queue though.
the way a (good) team moves in ranked 5s is just completely different. if you're not playing 5s, you'll learn a lot more about 5s by watching pro games than playing solo queue.
and yeah, my team of 2 silvers, 2 golds, and 1 plat 5 has upset teams that have all-diamond in solo queue. bly has said it before and has said it happens often, and in my experience i'm inclined to agree.
i think solo queue rating is highly overrated when it comes to analyzing 5s play.
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United States15536 Posts
On May 09 2013 07:49 Slayer91 wrote:
If you don't think you're bad you're terrible
even at the pro levels there is a massive disparity in skill level
lets say CW old mid vs bjergsen lolololol
or even some NA mid like nyjacky or link who are pretty solid compared to bjergsen/froggen/xpeke/alex ich
any jungler vs diamondprox etc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_that_I_know_nothing
Has always and will always apply.
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EPT
