[Patch 3.05.1: Karma Remake] General Discussion - Page 32

On March 30 2013 23:48 Slusher wrote:
I'm really not sure why they nerfed the horse again. Counterplay to self healing exists, it's not Hecarim's fault the player base still builds Athene's for no apparent reason when Voli/Heca are in the game.

This is one of those situations where Riot just should have said tough luck players you are on your own on this one.

On March 30 2013 23:20 phyvo wrote:


To be fair Riot tried a more conservative rework of Karma that preserved her unique points but even in internal tests they couldn't get it balanced. If they couldn't balance it internally you know it's bad. Not to say they couldn't have done a better job with this rework, though.

On March 31 2013 00:06 wei2coolman wrote:

I disagree; her Q is so fucking generic.
and her leash is pretty much a copy of leblancs leash.
Passive isn't anything new either, it's a variation of Ryze's passive, except only on 1 ability. Which is pretty fucking silly since it should just be a passive attached to ult, rather than champ wide ult, when it only affects 1 ability.
The only thing they kept in new Karma is shield + aoe dmg.

On March 31 2013 00:35 phyvo wrote:


Personally if something is so imbalanced that Riot knows it even in internal testing I don't want it in my game. Think about it: Guinsoo's conservative Karma rework had to at least be release xin/leblanc levels of OP or crazy levels of "bleh" for Riot to work on it for a year and then give up on the approach. What do we think they were doing all that time, twiddling their thumbs and whistling?

Karma rework basically turned her into an utterly and completely different champion as they centered her playstyle around a completely new ability (q) instead of anything resembling her old shield+damage centric playstyle. So when people say that new Karma is "generic" I think they're mostly reacting to the complete loss of her playstyle since as it stands I think using Karma Q and Mantra-ing Q/E has a pretty distinct flavor from other AP mids. It's just nowhere near as unique as old Karma's style, which was a lot like AP Sion in lane (who is in a similar position) but with a lot more interesting play possible.

On March 31 2013 00:44 obesechicken13 wrote:
My little brother really liked Karma before the rework. Now he says she's weaker. I looked at her numbers. She doesn't look that weak, but it would be sad if Riot actually made Karma weaker after the remake. Win rates don't mean much considering the psychological effect.

On March 30 2013 23:39 Potatisodlaren wrote:
Does anyone who liked Karma pre-rework actually like her now? I hate her and so does everyone I've seen who liked old Karma. I don't get it they pretty much changed everything, why not just make a new champion with the new skillset? Ryze rework still kept all his spells intact, same with Xin.

On March 31 2013 00:44 obesechicken13 wrote:
My little brother really liked Karma before the rework. Now he says she's weaker. I looked at her numbers. She doesn't look that weak, but it would be sad if Riot actually made Karma weaker after the remake. Win rates don't mean much considering the psychological effect.

On March 31 2013 00:52 Slusher wrote:
Obviously the real problem is they were busy with the art design for Zac.

Honestly the most disappointing champion, art wise, that has even been introduced. When I saw the first preview thing, like the thing with the lab report and whatnot I pictured Slimer from ghostbusters, or like Jabba the hut, but when he the "reveal" comes out we see that it's just a human that is green. But in the shots we see a picture from what we now know is his ult where he is turned into a ball, and I thought mabye human is just his idle shape. Nope, imagine, on his Q if his hands turned into hammers and he smashed them together. Imagine on his E if he morphed into an actual slingshot, imagine the third jump of his ult he turns into an anvil, and even add a CLANG! sound effect. Instead we just have a green human with a recolor for a skin, what a dissapointment.

On March 31 2013 00:45 wei2coolman wrote:
I think she has some promise, but she loses a lot of her quirkiness with the remake.

On March 31 2013 00:44 obesechicken13 wrote:
My little brother really liked Karma before the rework. Now he says she's weaker. I looked at her numbers. She doesn't look that weak, but it would be sad if Riot actually made Karma weaker after the remake. Win rates don't mean much considering the psychological effect.

On March 31 2013 00:35 phyvo wrote:Karma rework basically turned her into an utterly and completely different champion as they centered her playstyle around a completely new ability (q) instead of anything resembling her old shield+damage centric playstyle. So when people say that new Karma is "generic" I think they're mostly reacting to the complete loss of her playstyle since as it stands I think using Karma Q and Mantra-ing Q/E has a pretty distinct flavor from other AP mids. It's just nowhere near as unique as old Karma's style, which was a lot like AP Sion in lane (who is in a similar position) but with a lot more interesting play possible.

On March 31 2013 01:03 OhTwoMise wrote:


This encompasses a lot of what I don't like about Riot's process. They seem to have a very specific vision of where they want the game to go and are afraid to let it evolve organically. If she was really that underpowered, she wasn't hurting anything, unlike, say, an Evelyn.



I actually thought this at first, too. I think it's that if you try to play her even remotely like old Karma, you get butchered in lane. Literally all of her old playstyle-defining characteristics are gone, though some of the abilities bear token resemblance.




I don't think I can agree with that. I played a lot of Karma and I play a lot of utility mids. New Karma really just feels like diet Lux to me. W is definitely the most unique aspect of her new kit (despite it existing on two other champs), and her other spells seem sort of aligned to support that, but it's pretty hard to max first and still have a reasonably good lane, and if you ever commit to proc'ing it and you are wrong--about anything: jungle position, burst, summoner cooldowns--you're dead.

Sion is actually a pretty good comparison that I hadn't considered because he's so far off the map. The major difference I think is that Sion wants to shove and gank sidelanes such that when he's in a strong state, he's really good at solo queue whereas Karma wants to hook up with the jungler to make big plays, so even if she was in a strong state, she was really hard to make work in solo queue. And even if you could jump that hurdle, the amount

On March 31 2013 01:08 onlywonderboy wrote:

What other skill is an AoE shield that provides a speed boost for your team? Also you can max Q and still have Mantra E be incredibly useful. You aren't just pigeonholed into using Mantra and the skill you're maxing.

On March 31 2013 01:18 OhTwoMise wrote:


You're missing the point. The skills may be slightly unique in execution, but the way you play them is almost identical to other champions with nearly identical skillsets that already exist. Singed and Volibear have nearly identical flips, but they play vastly differently because of how the rest of their kits fit together. You could replace any of Karma's abilities (or even all three) with the corresponding ability from Lux and she would be essentially unchanged, provided you added a stronger mantra version.

I also didn't mean to imply that you can only utilize the skill you're maxing, but that the skill maxed changes how a lane plays out. Maxing W would give her a unique laning style, but it doesn't seem viable. Maxing Q makes her play like an Orianna or Lux.