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On February 15 2013 15:21 Sufficiency wrote:
Oh wait. These defense stats for Quinn:
Health:475(+85 per level)
Mana:245(+35 per level)
Movement Speed:335
Armor:17(+3.5 per level)
Magic Resist:30
Comparably:
Amumu has 472 (+84) health and 18 (+3.3) armor
Graves has 410 (+84) health and 15 (+3.2) armor
Zed has 445 (+85) health and 17.5 (+3.5) armor
Kog has the highest health of any ADC at level 1...with 524 (Ez is the lowest at 430). Quinn's gonna have 560 health at level 1. That is the THIRD HIGHEST health at level 1 of all champions in League of legends, 1 point behind Jax and 16 behind Gangplank.
Seems kind of ridiculous. Guess we'll see.
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I'm going to just wait for S@20's PBE patchnotes from now on. Yeah, they come out a few hours later, but they are much nicer to read. Even have seperate Live > PBE and old PBE > New PBE sections now.
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Well, she kind of needs it from what I can see. She doesn't have anything like the innate scaling most carries do and her gameplay seems fairly situational, relying on mr hawkface. plus her ult is a noobtrap to do exactly what an ADC should never, ever do, IE run directly into a fight and punch people.
I definitely think strong base stats and scaling are warranted. She's an early game control carry, a skirmisher and an assassin, but she doesn't have the endgame scaling of other AD carries. She'll fall off fairly badly late game I'm guessing, though admittedly in the current meta that's not a huge weakness.
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The thing I dislike about Quinn from having played her is the RNG aspect of her passive. Her laning is very fun despite this however.
The LOC indicators are cool too.
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I was already getting BotRK on Kogmaw last patch. Definitely going to get it now.
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I just found out there was a highest crit graph now in the score screen.
I was more bummed than I should have been when I found out I didnt have the highest one as 6 item Ashe.
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+ Show Spoiler [Notes on Quinn] +Passive is 15 + 10 * Level base damage up until level 15, at which point you start gaining an additional 5 damage per level. The total at level 18 is 215 base damage + 0.5 bonus AD. It appears to apply roughly once every 10 seconds at early levels, decreasing at later levels to around once every 6 seconds. I don't have a precise measure of this because I wasn't really paying attention to it when I played, and I was killing creeps too fast for the replay to offer any meaningful data. Her passive is bonus damage and is not affected by crit.
Her Q's ratio is 0.65, and her E's ratio is 0.2. E also immediately applies her passive.
Her ultimate does not reset her ability cooldowns, and its cooldown begins one you cast the second part. The damage portion ranges from 0.5 to 1.0 bonus AD scaling depending on enemy health.
Notes aside, I have a few thoughts.
She'll be good against a solo diving champion, but against multiple she'll probably have little she can do besides E->Ult->Pray her team can win 4v3 while she books it around. Her ultimate is multipurpose, but it's going to trip up a lot of lower tier players. Going from Q as a skillshot and E as a distance creator to Q as a point blank AoE and E as a distance closer can be confusing.
I think she lacks character. She's not as bad as Varus, but the bird doesn't steal the show so much as the bird is the only interesting part of the show.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 15 2013 16:11 OutlaW- wrote:
I was already getting BotRK on Kogmaw last patch. Definitely going to get it now.
BotRK isn't actually all that compelling on Kog, given that 1) he needs attack speed more than more damage out of his first damage item because of his W, and 2) his kit makes him a really good Triforce user if you're looking for damage at the 1-2 item timing.
Stacking % HP damage is kind of cute, but not actually all that good. It's the same fallacious logic that led to the idea of Bloodrazor on Kog in S1, except its even worse because BotRK doesn't give attack speed while Bloodrazor did.
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Taric
Shatter ( W ) now grants 10% of Taric's Armor to allies instead of flat 10/15/20/25/30
Shatter ( W ) now also deals damage equal to .3 of Taric's armor.
Ouch - have to admit, I wasn't really reaching 300 armor on Taric by level 9 ... would have been nice if the % increased with skill rank.
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I bet the guys over at RoG are doing a jig of glee about being able to do a 3rd article on BotRK.
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A 1.5 second blind + nuke on an ADC? Last time Riot did that they had to nerf the shit out of that spell and it wasn't even a true blind. Then again, the rest of Quinn's kit seems kinda lackluster.
She's probably better played top lane than as an ADC imo.
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On February 15 2013 16:44 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 16:11 OutlaW- wrote:
I was already getting BotRK on Kogmaw last patch. Definitely going to get it now. BotRK isn't actually all that compelling on Kog, given that 1) he needs attack speed more than more damage out of his first damage item because of his W, and 2) his kit makes him a really good Triforce user if you're looking for damage at the 1-2 item timing. Stacking % HP damage is kind of cute, but not actually all that good. It's the same fallacious logic that led to the idea of Bloodrazor on Kog in S1, except its even worse because BotRK doesn't give attack speed while Bloodrazor did.
BotRK is better on him than Bloodthirster. I don't like attack speed item starts. I'm not convinced that Trinity force is better than the Blade. Therefore, in my eyes, it's the best choice.
Not to mention that people are definitely going to dive for you, and the added 300 hp heal + peel really helps.
Your job as an AD carry is to kill tanks. Everybody and their mother is getting Warmogs and Sunfires and usually have 4000 hp with 120 armor. Having BotRK and PD at 25 minutes together with your W means, unlike almost every other AD carry, you can deal with them. Unless you have a high damage AP on your team, nobody else can deal with them. I'm sure you've played against many Dariuses and Renektons who suddenly have 4000 HP and 25 minutes and your Ezreal with his Trinity force is barely doing any damage to them.
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United States47024 Posts
If Darius and Renekton have 4000 HP +120 Armor at 25 mins vs an Ezreal with just Trinity Force they have like a 2k gold lead over him when he only has like 5k gold in items. Of course he's going to get trashed.
4000 HP + 120 armor is like level 18 Darius with Warmog's + Sunfire + another Giant's Belt.
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On February 15 2013 17:05 TheYango wrote:
If Darius and Renekton have 4000 HP +120 Armor at 25 mins vs an Ezreal with just Trinity Force they have like a 2k gold lead over him when he only has like 5k gold in items. Of course he's going to get trashed.
Then say he has a Trinity Force and a BF Sword and a Long sword (3903 + 1650
+ 400 = 5954). He will still not be able to dent them, compared to a Kog with a BotRK and a PD (2900 + 2800 = 5700). You basically ignored my entire argument just to point out something not at all relevant.
Warmog and Sunfire and a Belt is 2830 + 2650 + 1000 = 6400. It's not unlikely for a top laner to have 400 more gold than the AD, especially since people like Renekton and Darius tend to get fed. The Ezreal will be completely and utterly useless and will do almost no damage. Based on experience, I would say the Kog will be at least twice as useful.
In your scenario, where the top laner has 2k more gold (and 3-4 levels) more than the AD, the Ezreal with a Trinity Force (4000) will be even more useless compared to the Kogmaw with a BotRK and a Zeal (2900 + 1175) than in the situation above. Trinity just isn't cost effective when dealing with tanks, AD carries do not have the luxury to do a half assed damage item anymore.
If we assume that Ezreal isn't mental and decides to go for a BT instead, he will only have enough for BT, a dagger and a crit glove (3200 + 400 + 420). Even if we magically turn the numbers up where he will be able to hit his timing of having a BT and a Zeal while the Kog has 500 in the bank, he will still have do much less damage than the Kog, simply because of the way the champions are designed. (the retarded BAT nerf to Ezreal helps with this case a lot)
The trade off for having so much power, of course, is Kog's lack of mobility. Blade at least provides him with a slow. I simply do not like Trinity anymore, because it's so easy to get tanky for cheap and be completely invincible to anyone except the carries. It happens often that your mid lane is an assassin or a roamer (say, Khazix or TF) who are not able to deal with them. In those situatations, it's your job as the AD carry to step up and try to hit a mid game peak where you're strong enough to deal with those tanks. This is the Blade's job. Trinity gives you mana, AP, health, a slow proc, crit (which is bad at this point in the game because you only have the 15%-20%).
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On February 15 2013 16:44 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 16:11 OutlaW- wrote:
I was already getting BotRK on Kogmaw last patch. Definitely going to get it now. BotRK isn't actually all that compelling on Kog, given that 1) he needs attack speed more than more damage out of his first damage item because of his W, and 2) his kit makes him a really good Triforce user if you're looking for damage at the 1-2 item timing. Stacking % HP damage is kind of cute, but not actually all that good. It's the same fallacious logic that led to the idea of Bloodrazor on Kog in S1, except its even worse because BotRK doesn't give attack speed while Bloodrazor did.
I think that comment was made with the understanding that BotRK is getting attack speed.
The problem with Bloodrazor wasn't that it had bad damage, it was that it was expensive given that it didn't have a large amount of multiplicative stats on it.
The old bloodrazor was 3800 gold for less damage than the new BotRK and no sustain.
The new BotRK is only ~3000 gold, 900 gold less than triforce, 800 less than madreds and it has both a strong active and, most importantly sustain.
If you're worried about an early warmogs/locket catapulting the enemies HP then the BotRK might make a lot of sense, if the enemy has 2000 HP, the passive bonus damage will equate to about 100 damage which should make the BotRK the highest single damage item for dedicated auto attackers.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 15 2013 17:11 OutlaW- wrote:Trinity just isn't cost effective when dealing with tanks, AD carries do not have the luxury to do a half assed damage item anymore.
On the contrary, this version forces carries to sacrifice pure glass cannon damage for overall survivability and utility. How do you think Warmog's on AD became a thing? It sacrifices raw glass cannon damage for the flexibility of having an overall more cost-effective item, which Triforce likewise is as well.
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On February 15 2013 17:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 17:11 OutlaW- wrote:Trinity just isn't cost effective when dealing with tanks, AD carries do not have the luxury to do a half assed damage item anymore.
On the contrary, this version forces carries to sacrifice pure glass cannon damage for overall survivability and utility. How do you think Warmog's on AD became a thing? It sacrifices raw glass cannon damage for the flexibility of having an overall more cost-effective item, which Triforce likewise is as well.
Ehhhhhh, I disagree on the whole warmogs thing on ADC, it just became replacement for GA, not necessarily "sacrifice" for damage. The lack of damage we see from ADC is more so the nerf to ADC items; We're seeing Warmogs on ADC's at around the same item timing as we did for GA, Usually after BT->PD->LW.
Now, if you made a case for IBG....... (huehuehuehuehue)
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You do not get Warmogs as your second item. You don't have the luxury to get a HP item that early into the game, because if you do and the other AD doesn't, you're going to have much, much less damage. Warmog is probably the best choice for ADs currently, but you never get it as a second big item. You don't even usually get it as a third item, often opting for a LW instead. You get it as a 4th item, because at that point you're big enough of a threat for people to focus you. Getting HP before you're a threat doesn't make sense. Please don't ignore the rest of my post, either.
Triforce isn't more cost effective than BotRK on Kog'maw. It might be on Ezreal, but I never said to get that it on him anyway.
I think an Ezreal who gets TF as his first item is sacrificing a lot of damage for useless stats like mana and AP and a slow proc (botrk also has a slow but it's 100% and heals you by 300). The era of TF is over because carries can no longer get it, suffer the loss to damage compared to a Bloodthirster or an IE, but be fine because nobody is really tanky enough to take advantage of it.
You seem to be missing a reason why Warmog's is popular. It certainly is popular because it's cost effective, but it's also popular because its purely a defensive item and nothing else. You're basically forced into buying such an item, because you need to get purely offensive items to have any sort of relevant damage to the tanks before then.
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On February 15 2013 17:26 OutlaW- wrote:
You do not get Warmogs as your second item. You don't have the luxury to get a HP item that early into the game, because if you do and the other AD doesn't, you're going to have much, much less damage. Warmog is probably the best choice for ADs currently, but you never get it as a second big item. You don't even usually get it as a third item, often opting for a LW instead. You get it as a 4th item, because at that point you're big enough of a threat for people to focus you. Getting HP before you're a threat doesn't make sense. Please don't ignore the rest of my post, either.
On the other hand if the enemy ADC is blown up by assassins/bruisers before he can be effective it doesn't matter how much damage he built.
I am not sure that second item defensive is a bad idea anymore (or at least get the giants belt) given that early defensive items scale harder than early damage items and that early defensive items can keep you from being blown up by assassins/bruisers ensuring that you can continue to do damage in a team fight.
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On February 15 2013 17:30 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 17:26 OutlaW- wrote:
You do not get Warmogs as your second item. You don't have the luxury to get a HP item that early into the game, because if you do and the other AD doesn't, you're going to have much, much less damage. Warmog is probably the best choice for ADs currently, but you never get it as a second big item. You don't even usually get it as a third item, often opting for a LW instead. You get it as a 4th item, because at that point you're big enough of a threat for people to focus you. Getting HP before you're a threat doesn't make sense. Please don't ignore the rest of my post, either. On the other hand if the enemy ADC is blown up by assassins/bruisers before he can be effective it doesn't matter how much damage he built. I am not sure that second item defensive is a bad idea anymore (or at least get the giants belt) given that early defensive items scale harder than early damage items and that early defensive items can keep you from being blown up by assassins/bruisers ensuring that you can continue to do damage in a team fight.
You're Kog'maw. Your team will be peeling for you. If their top laner is Renekton but their jungler and mid laner are both assassins, maybe it is good to get a defensive item second, ignore the renekton, kill everyone else, and then kill him 2/3/4v1.
But any sort of discussion on this topic forces us to get into specifics. It's not just the opponents that are important in this equation, it's your teammates as well.
If you have assassins on your team who will dive their AD and kill him, that Renekton will be able to get to you. In this case, a slow would probably be helpful, no? So you get a Blade and a belt, slow him and run the fuck away if he tries chasing you, and hope that the rest of your team can 4v4. If you had an item like a Trinity Force, that Renekton would probably not even try to dive you, because you don't have enough threat.
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EPT
