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On February 23 2013 10:45 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 10:42 Requizen wrote:On February 23 2013 10:35 TheYango wrote:On February 23 2013 10:14 BlackPaladin wrote:On February 23 2013 10:11 Slayer91 wrote:
yi is an ap carry
tryndamere is the only example people should be mentioning because his ult and his steriods
even he saw more success played as ap.. yeppp, cause the whole idea of "melee carry" doesn't really work in LoL. No, it does. They're bruisers like Teut said. The idea of "melee carry" as a glass cannon melee is a total fabrication by Riot. The itemization of melee carries in DotA matches the pattern of those in LoL, which is heavily defensive-item oriented (Antimage's lategame 6-item build for example is basically 1 full-offensive farming item, a full-defensive item, and 3 half-offensive/half-defensive items (analogous to items like Wit's, Hexdrinker, Cleaver, etc.). I don't play Dota, but from what I understand you gain health from Strength as well, right? The only way to mimic something like that is something like Vlad's passive, which they straight up said they hate (as have many players). Yes you gain health from Strength. The "half-offensive/half-defensive" items Yango talks about are generally stuff like Manta which gives you a mix of Agi/Str/MS along with utility ability. The full defensive item tends to be a BKB or Heart(Warmogs). Really it's the BKB that changed everything for a melee carry. But ye lol can't really do that since the system purposely took out those complexities. So have to find own way of doing it which I think already happens, people just refuse to believe it or try act like it's something different.
I think BKB and the extremely role-locked nature of heroes/items in dota allows for more possibilities for glass cannon melee. With a composition based on peels/support, the team can just shift the carry's need to build survivability onto the other heroes.
Also Void is like "sup all my skills are utility, so I can just build dps"
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United States47024 Posts
On February 23 2013 10:56 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 10:55 TheYango wrote:
I mean, Strength and Agility being inherently half-offensive half-defensive stats doesn't matter so much because that's implicit in the cost of those items. Compared to a Vitality Booster, you're paying for the fact that an Ogre Axe gives you damage as well. This is the problem. AFAIK Agility provides attack damage, attack speed, and armor on agility heroes. How broken is that. LoL had this too - it's called Atma's Impaler. And we all know how popular this item is right now.
The fact that Agility is an AD/AS/Armor mix is pretty much all for bookkeeping though. The stat itself isn't inherently OP--it's balanced by how it's costed on items relative to the corresponding raw stat items. Raw stat items aren't worse than their Strength/Agility-granting counterparts.
What is true is that LoL tends to try to make items deliberately lopsided in providing one thing or another, while DotA is much more amenable to well-rounded items.
On February 23 2013 10:59 Flakes wrote:
I think BKB and the extremely role-locked nature of heroes/items in dota allows for more possibilities for glass cannon melee. With a composition based on peels/support, the team can just shift the carry's need to build survivability onto the other heroes.
Also Void is like "sup all my skills are utility, so I can just build dps"
Void end-game is like 2 full-defensive items (BKB Satanic) 1-2 half-defensive items (Manta Butterfly) and 1-2 full-offensive items (Crit Battlefury). He's not glass-cannon at all, especially since he has a ridiculously OP defense passive.
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i think i see a new TL-LoL conversation trend, one we can add to the HoG, gp10, ad/arpen runes discussions
EVERYTHING IN THIS GAME IS SUCH A FRAGILE BALANCE, EVERYTHING IS EITHER OP OR WORTHLESS THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND i swear i've seen that at least 5 times in the last 10 pages
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No one in dota builds glass cannon. Don't know where this misconception comes from. Almost every carry goes defensive item in first 2/3 items and normally land up with 1/2 full defensive items and only 1 full offensive(Normally a crit or mkb). Glass cannon in any role just doesn't exist.
People should stop trying to make glass cannon characters.
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On February 23 2013 11:00 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 10:56 Sufficiency wrote:On February 23 2013 10:55 TheYango wrote:
I mean, Strength and Agility being inherently half-offensive half-defensive stats doesn't matter so much because that's implicit in the cost of those items. Compared to a Vitality Booster, you're paying for the fact that an Ogre Axe gives you damage as well. This is the problem. AFAIK Agility provides attack damage, attack speed, and armor on agility heroes. How broken is that. LoL had this too - it's called Atma's Impaler. And we all know how popular this item is right now. The fact that Agility is an AD/AS/Armor mix is pretty much all for bookkeeping though. The stat itself isn't inherently OP--it's balanced by how it's costed on items relative to the corresponding raw stat items. Raw stat items aren't worse than their Strength/Agility-granting counterparts. What is true is that LoL tends to try to make items deliberately lopsided in providing one thing or another, while DotA is much more amenable to well-rounded items. Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 10:59 Flakes wrote:
I think BKB and the extremely role-locked nature of heroes/items in dota allows for more possibilities for glass cannon melee. With a composition based on peels/support, the team can just shift the carry's need to build survivability onto the other heroes.
Also Void is like "sup all my skills are utility, so I can just build dps" Void end-game is like 2 full-defensive items (BKB Satanic) 1-2 half-defensive items (Manta Butterfly) and 1-2 full-offensive items (Crit Battlefury). He's not glass-cannon at all, especially since he has a ridiculously OP defense passive.
Yango I really like your posts and imma let you finish, but calling BKB & Satanic "full-defensive items" made me lol
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holy shit the comments on the new pro player pick in the official forums are embarassing.
edit: bkb and satanic are fully defensive on void. don't take things out of context.
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This Dota thing has me confused. Back when I played, I built only one offensive, 2 half/half/ 2 defensive, and yet I still feel like I did a boatload of damage.
I try that on an ADC in league, and I feel like dead weight.
What is it about Dota that makes this possible?
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From what I read of Heroes' kits on the DotA wiki, their steroids/offensive scaling passives/skills are much, much stronger than what you see in LoL. Tristana's range+AS steroids are bread'n'butter there. So they don't need too much offensive items to do a fuckton of damage, and they only need to put the rest of their gold into survivability so their dps is actually dps and not "damage before dying".
On February 23 2013 11:13 clickrush wrote:
holy shit the comments on the new pro player pick in the official forums are embarassing.
edit: bkb and satanic are fully defensive on void. don't take things out of context.
What do they say... ?
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On February 23 2013 11:13 RagequitBM wrote:
This Dota thing has me confused. Back when I played, I built only one offensive, 2 half/half/ 2 defensive, and yet I still feel like I did a boatload of damage.
I try that on an ADC in league, and I feel like dead weight.
What is it about Dota that makes this possible?
That's because the inherent stats/abilities of heroes in dota are min-maxed, while the items (as yango pointed out) are more well-rounded. In LoL it's the opposite -- champions often have a mix of utility and damage, while your item build pretty much seals your role
e.g. AD kennen/teemo can be carries in LoL if they build for it, even though they have no AD steroids. This would be a lot harder in dota because of the way heroes scale with stats
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On February 23 2013 11:13 RagequitBM wrote:
This Dota thing has me confused. Back when I played, I built only one offensive, 2 half/half/ 2 defensive, and yet I still feel like I did a boatload of damage.
I try that on an ADC in league, and I feel like dead weight.
What is it about Dota that makes this possible?
cuz passive scaling in dota is a bit bonkers.
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United States47024 Posts
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survivability is also a much bigger premium on DotA, conceptually getting a BKB in DotA is the equivalent of taking cleanse + sash in LoL so you can more or less understand it as a defensive item. Santanic is closer to 50/50. The difference in DotA and LoL for carries is that DotA carries simply cannot build full offense due to the comparative effectiveness of CC and the strength of magical burst and teamfight. In LoL carries are often picked more for range and maneuverability as opposed to raw offensive power and there is more reliance on the rest of the team on keeping your carry safe. The presence of smokes, the increased frequency of split-pushing, and the existence of increased small-scale skrimishes also puts a more survivable and balanced carry.
@ Yango, keep in mind that generally, the farm distribution in DotA is more skewed toward carries and a DotA carry will often have significantly more gold than a comparable lol one (around 1.3x), furthermore, LoL hp mid-late game on champs are usually about 1.5x DotA's
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I actually think probably the closest thing to a dota melee carry in lol right now is hecarim.
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basicly all those lategame bruisers who are very mobile and have a couple of solid tank and dps steroids are similar to dota melee carries like jax, heca, trynd, riven etc. Some of them are not super viable but thats just the same as it is in dota. dota melee carries allways have both defensive and offensive steroids just like lol bruisers have.
ranged carries exist as well but are often built a bit tankier than lol ranged carries because there is just more burst damage around early midgame.
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Not to mention that heroes in DotA tend to have OP as fuck skills and OP as fuck items sooooo building mostly defensive isn't as big a detriment to overall damage since they don't necessarily rely on their items for damage to the extent champs in LoL do.
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SO I FINALLY HIT GOLD AFTER 5 TRYS! Anyways I was really excited until I was put into "Teemo's Guardians"  I am a sad panda.
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Check who's in it amongst your friend list and blame them till the end of days. o/
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Would ranged and melee AD carries benefit from having more hybrid offense/defense items like atma's and hexdrinker? I cant see it benefiting that much more than just tossing in a chain vest after building a BF. The items are just as likely to aide bruisers in killing them as it is to help carries survive.
What I think more carries need is a defensive skill that scales with AD like Riven's shield or something of that nature other than a blink.
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On February 23 2013 13:29 Ghost-z wrote:
Would ranged and melee AD carries benefit from having more hybrid offense/defense items like atma's and hexdrinker? I cant see it benefiting that much more than just tossing in a chain vest after building a BF. The items are just as likely to aide bruisers in killing them as it is to help carries survive.
What I think more carries need is a defensive skill that scales with AD like Riven's shield or something of that nature other than a blink.
Atmas is just end all be all horrible. Never buy that item ever no matter what you are playing in the game. Hexdrinker might be good if you were facing some kind of 3ap team or something but then QSS/warmogs would still be better maybe.
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ooh never noticed this before but smash is in my division and he's got the same name as me lol
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EPT
