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United States23745 Posts
On February 01 2013 06:49 barbsq wrote:
it sorta bugs me that I can't tank my elo down a tier to learn something new. Instead I'd have to continue playing with the same level of players, but with a disadvantage to start with.
Not a big complaint tho, kus my elo isn't really high enough to begin with that it would ever be a problem. Plus, I suspect that the vast majority of ranked players do not share this concern.
@ alzadar, NA is working for me, except they disabled ranked queue for S3 patch.
Your Elo still tanks in the background and you'd be matched with people with a similar Elo, even if you're protected from ever falling out of the Silver Tier. You still play people out of your Tier.
Edit: Also you can try new stuff in Normal Draft then  no need to tank your Elo.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 01 2013 06:49 barbsq wrote:
it sorta bugs me that I can't tank my down a tier to learn something new. Instead I'd have to continue playing with the same people, but with a disadvantage to start with.
Not a big complaint tho, kus my elo isn't really high enough to begin with that it would ever be a problem. Plus, I suspect that the vast majority of ranked players do not share this concern.
@ alzadar, NA is working for me, except they disabled ranked queue for S3 patch.
You don't play with the same people.
Matchmaking is totally unaffected by division assignment. Its only purpose is to obscure your numerical elo.
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On February 01 2013 06:35 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 06:26 Alaric wrote:On February 01 2013 06:15 TheKefka wrote:
You guys worry too much about semantics. It's not about us. Most of the people who play LoL and talk about "Elo hell", the "casual crowd" if you wish, have no idea what Elo actually is (as in a rating system in particular) nor about its mechanics (the way it's used to compare the relative skill levels of two people), to them it's only a number. And a scapegoat. If Riot gets rid of that, then people will actually believe, at least for awhile, that the problems that they came to associate with Elo, or Elo hell, are gone. To them, not being able to "lose a tier" is going to be much more visible than "having the end of season rewards based off of your top Elo", for example. It's exactly the same as currently, except it'll seem more important to them because they'll be exposed to it permanently. And that's because people care about semantics that the system should work in relieving "ladder anxiety" or the anger related to Elo from people. I'm fine with other people unable to look up my Elo btw (like not being able to use lolking and start stupid flaming in champ select anymore, for example), but not being able to see it myself and having a shiny medal instead is what made me angry about the lump of shit that this system is. So you're angry because you can't see a number and instead you get a medal.lol srsly people,who cares,just play the game
I do understand it tho. Elo is a pretty accurate number to value your skill, while some medal isn't, especially if you can't lose it anymore once reached.
And to another poster before. When you are above some proplayer in a division to show off, how does that work differently with the current display system when you are higher elo than the progamer in question. Afterall being higher in the same division doesn't even mean you played against them.
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Because a number is less personal than actually seeing your name on a ladder above theirs. It's symbolism, but there is a difference.
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On February 01 2013 06:52 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 06:49 barbsq wrote:
it sorta bugs me that I can't tank my down a tier to learn something new. Instead I'd have to continue playing with the same people, but with a disadvantage to start with.
Not a big complaint tho, kus my elo isn't really high enough to begin with that it would ever be a problem. Plus, I suspect that the vast majority of ranked players do not share this concern.
@ alzadar, NA is working for me, except they disabled ranked queue for S3 patch. You don't play with the same people. Matchmaking is totally unaffected by division assignment. Its only purpose is to obscure your numerical elo.
^
Just think of it as a visual remake.
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On February 01 2013 06:48 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 06:43 TheKefka wrote:Why would people that play ranked be more likely to buy RP?O_o I'd be willing to bet that the reason why Riot is going to this ratings system is because it's the system SC2 uses, and they probably talked to Blizzard about it, and Blizzard probably showed them some data showing that it's likely to get casual players to play more ranked games. yea,I'm sure blizzard is giving riot advice on how to draw in more casuals lol maybe in some parallel universe Ignoring the Blizzard hate, but If you assume that people who play ranked games are trying to win a bit more competitively than they are in normal games, you'd assume that they will try to do things to gain an advantage, and buying RP for champions/rune pages/etc is a way to gain an advantage. They're more likely to invest into the game if they think that investment is going to result in a reward, IE gaining more ELO. It'd be a very easy thing to find statistically. Take data of all users who have played ranked games, and average $ spent on RP for all of them. Then same data of all users who never play ranked games. I'm sure Riot has this data. And I think it's a fairly safe assumption that that data would show that the more ranked a player plays, the more money they've spent on the game on average. Therefor, it's in Riots interests financially to get more players to want to play ranked.
As far as this is concerned the definitive advantage of using RP for ranked is for runepages. For playing normals it really doesn't matter. You could have 1 page, hard locking a champ every singe game and you'd still be fine. So that's one area that matters.
Champions also, ranked creates an incentive to have more champions so you have a bigger pool.
As for buying skins or not, I think that's almost completely independant.
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On February 01 2013 06:51 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 06:49 barbsq wrote:
it sorta bugs me that I can't tank my elo down a tier to learn something new. Instead I'd have to continue playing with the same level of players, but with a disadvantage to start with.
Not a big complaint tho, kus my elo isn't really high enough to begin with that it would ever be a problem. Plus, I suspect that the vast majority of ranked players do not share this concern.
@ alzadar, NA is working for me, except they disabled ranked queue for S3 patch. Your Elo still tanks in the background and you'd be matched with people with a similar Elo, even if you're protected from ever falling out of the Silver Tier. You still play people out of your Tier. Edit: Also you can try new stuff in Normal Draft then no need to tank your Elo.
ic, that's good. Isn't this the exact same as the peak elo thing that they've been doing then?
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United States23745 Posts
On February 01 2013 06:52 Keniji wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 06:35 TheKefka wrote:On February 01 2013 06:26 Alaric wrote:On February 01 2013 06:15 TheKefka wrote:
You guys worry too much about semantics. It's not about us. Most of the people who play LoL and talk about "Elo hell", the "casual crowd" if you wish, have no idea what Elo actually is (as in a rating system in particular) nor about its mechanics (the way it's used to compare the relative skill levels of two people), to them it's only a number. And a scapegoat. If Riot gets rid of that, then people will actually believe, at least for awhile, that the problems that they came to associate with Elo, or Elo hell, are gone. To them, not being able to "lose a tier" is going to be much more visible than "having the end of season rewards based off of your top Elo", for example. It's exactly the same as currently, except it'll seem more important to them because they'll be exposed to it permanently. And that's because people care about semantics that the system should work in relieving "ladder anxiety" or the anger related to Elo from people. I'm fine with other people unable to look up my Elo btw (like not being able to use lolking and start stupid flaming in champ select anymore, for example), but not being able to see it myself and having a shiny medal instead is what made me angry about the lump of shit that this system is. So you're angry because you can't see a number and instead you get a medal.lol srsly people,who cares,just play the game I do understand it tho. Elo is a pretty accurate number to value your skill, while some medal isn't, especially if you can't lose it anymore once reached. And to another poster before. When you are above some proplayer in a division to show off, how does that work differently with the current display system when you are higher elo than the progamer in question. Afterall being higher in the same division doesn't even mean you played against them.
It's not about obtaining the medal. Sure once you get into Gold Tier you have the medal, the measure of improvement comes from climbing the Gold Tier and making it into Platinum. It's not perfect but you should still be able to tell if you're improving.
On February 01 2013 06:54 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 06:51 onlywonderboy wrote:On February 01 2013 06:49 barbsq wrote:
it sorta bugs me that I can't tank my elo down a tier to learn something new. Instead I'd have to continue playing with the same level of players, but with a disadvantage to start with.
Not a big complaint tho, kus my elo isn't really high enough to begin with that it would ever be a problem. Plus, I suspect that the vast majority of ranked players do not share this concern.
@ alzadar, NA is working for me, except they disabled ranked queue for S3 patch. Your Elo still tanks in the background and you'd be matched with people with a similar Elo, even if you're protected from ever falling out of the Silver Tier. You still play people out of your Tier. Edit: Also you can try new stuff in Normal Draft then no need to tank your Elo. ic, that's good. Isn't this the exact same as the peak elo thing that they've been doing then?
More or less yes.
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On February 01 2013 06:52 Keniji wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 06:35 TheKefka wrote:On February 01 2013 06:26 Alaric wrote:On February 01 2013 06:15 TheKefka wrote:
You guys worry too much about semantics. It's not about us. Most of the people who play LoL and talk about "Elo hell", the "casual crowd" if you wish, have no idea what Elo actually is (as in a rating system in particular) nor about its mechanics (the way it's used to compare the relative skill levels of two people), to them it's only a number. And a scapegoat. If Riot gets rid of that, then people will actually believe, at least for awhile, that the problems that they came to associate with Elo, or Elo hell, are gone. To them, not being able to "lose a tier" is going to be much more visible than "having the end of season rewards based off of your top Elo", for example. It's exactly the same as currently, except it'll seem more important to them because they'll be exposed to it permanently. And that's because people care about semantics that the system should work in relieving "ladder anxiety" or the anger related to Elo from people. I'm fine with other people unable to look up my Elo btw (like not being able to use lolking and start stupid flaming in champ select anymore, for example), but not being able to see it myself and having a shiny medal instead is what made me angry about the lump of shit that this system is. So you're angry because you can't see a number and instead you get a medal.lol srsly people,who cares,just play the game I do understand it tho. Elo is a pretty accurate number to value your skill, while some medal isn't, especially if you can't lose it anymore once reached.
???????????
In league's system, Elo's hella high variance. It's not a good indicator of skill in the short-term.
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United States47024 Posts
Elo is overly granular though. It give TOO MUCH info in a way, because elo gains of 10, 20, or even 100 Elo can represent background noise and not improvement. Obviously anyone familiar with the system knows this, but many aren't and draw false conclusions from their elo spiking up or down by 100.
The purpose of this system is to put in a filter that obscures statistical fluctuation so less knowledgeable players don't draw false conclusions from incorrectly interpreting their elo gains/losses.
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On February 01 2013 06:52 Keniji wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 06:35 TheKefka wrote:On February 01 2013 06:26 Alaric wrote:On February 01 2013 06:15 TheKefka wrote:
You guys worry too much about semantics. It's not about us. Most of the people who play LoL and talk about "Elo hell", the "casual crowd" if you wish, have no idea what Elo actually is (as in a rating system in particular) nor about its mechanics (the way it's used to compare the relative skill levels of two people), to them it's only a number. And a scapegoat. If Riot gets rid of that, then people will actually believe, at least for awhile, that the problems that they came to associate with Elo, or Elo hell, are gone. To them, not being able to "lose a tier" is going to be much more visible than "having the end of season rewards based off of your top Elo", for example. It's exactly the same as currently, except it'll seem more important to them because they'll be exposed to it permanently. And that's because people care about semantics that the system should work in relieving "ladder anxiety" or the anger related to Elo from people. I'm fine with other people unable to look up my Elo btw (like not being able to use lolking and start stupid flaming in champ select anymore, for example), but not being able to see it myself and having a shiny medal instead is what made me angry about the lump of shit that this system is. So you're angry because you can't see a number and instead you get a medal.lol srsly people,who cares,just play the game I do understand it tho. Elo is a pretty accurate number to value your skill, while some medal isn't, especially if you can't lose it anymore once reached. And to another poster before. When you are above some proplayer in a division to show off, how does that work differently with the current display system when you are higher elo than the progamer in question. Afterall being higher in the same division doesn't even mean you played against them.
Elo is not a accurate number.....if you really think you can pinpoint someones skill with a specific elo number than I don't know what to tell you,not sure how much you played this game.
I was all over the place as far as elo goes,from 1000 to 1500,back to 1200,up again to 1500,into 1700,back down again and so forth and so on.Like gaining and loosing 100 elo is nothing,it happens all the time,why would you think if you are currently xxxx elo that it's accurate.It's way to specific to measure something like "skill".
In fact people that played at all elo lvls can tell you that there are ranges of elo where games are pretty much the same all the time.It would go like 1000-1200,1200-1500,1500-1700,etc.
We already have practically a league system it's just not that apparent to people I guess,but it is to those that slowly climbed up over time in elo.
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NICE TRY LOW ELO SCRUBS
:D:D:D:D:
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On February 01 2013 06:48 Ketara wrote:
It'd be a very easy thing to find statistically. Take data of all users who have played ranked games, and average $ spent on RP for all of them. Then same data of all users who never play ranked games. I'm sure Riot has this data.
And I think it's a fairly safe assumption that that data would show that the more ranked a player plays, the more money they've spent on the game on average.
Therefor, it's in Riots interests financially to get more players to want to play ranked.
Technically you'd want to normalize by games played/time spent playing as well. Players who play ranked play more LoL (the group who haven't hit 30 or aren't comfortable playing ranked yet post-30). I'm reasonably sure over the entire population of ranked vs unranked, being ranked correlates to more RP spent. I'd be far less sure that it's a causal relationship.
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On February 01 2013 06:35 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 06:26 Alaric wrote:On February 01 2013 06:15 TheKefka wrote:
You guys worry too much about semantics. It's not about us. Most of the people who play LoL and talk about "Elo hell", the "casual crowd" if you wish, have no idea what Elo actually is (as in a rating system in particular) nor about its mechanics (the way it's used to compare the relative skill levels of two people), to them it's only a number. And a scapegoat. If Riot gets rid of that, then people will actually believe, at least for awhile, that the problems that they came to associate with Elo, or Elo hell, are gone. To them, not being able to "lose a tier" is going to be much more visible than "having the end of season rewards based off of your top Elo", for example. It's exactly the same as currently, except it'll seem more important to them because they'll be exposed to it permanently. And that's because people care about semantics that the system should work in relieving "ladder anxiety" or the anger related to Elo from people. I'm fine with other people unable to look up my Elo btw (like not being able to use lolking and start stupid flaming in champ select anymore, for example), but not being able to see it myself and having a shiny medal instead is what made me angry about the lump of shit that this system is. So you're angry because you can't see a number and instead you get a medal.lol srsly people,who cares,just play the game
I'm angry because the system is bad and I knew from the announcement that they would do it anyway, despite how bad SC2 proved it was, and the community backlash—from "informed" people that is, already knew reddit and the GD forums would love it anyway.
And also because the idea behind the change is Riot taking the angry little kids by the end and soothing them with calm words and telling them everything will be fine, that they won't have to care about the big bad number anymore and they can compare their progress with their friends even more easily because they'll be in the same divisions, etc.
Now switch the camera work a bit and look at it from another angle. Let's say, behind Riot's shoulder. "These poor little kids can't handle the Elo system, they obviously aren't prepared or smart enough to deal with it and use it as a measure of their progress effectively enough. We need to spoon-feed them with a pre-chewed gloubiboulga so they feel good about it".
Or think about the parents giving horse steak to their kids and telling them it's beef because they'll eat it that way, it's just the idea of the horse that repulsed them.
I'm angry become I consider myself reasonable enough to look at a number and handle it while keeping in mind its accurate but imprecise nature, so I can reflect on my own progress through it. But Riot's telling me "nope, you're as dumb as the masses". That's insulting.
Look at it this way: if you run a marathon, what do you expect from the guy at the finish line? Your time, or a chocolate medal? Because this system is Riot switching from one to the other. And I've passed the age for chocolate medals.
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United States23745 Posts
Oh man, Voyboy is playing Normals while Ranked is down. Those poor unsuspecting souls.
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On February 01 2013 06:55 Eiii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 06:52 Keniji wrote:On February 01 2013 06:35 TheKefka wrote:On February 01 2013 06:26 Alaric wrote:On February 01 2013 06:15 TheKefka wrote:
You guys worry too much about semantics. It's not about us. Most of the people who play LoL and talk about "Elo hell", the "casual crowd" if you wish, have no idea what Elo actually is (as in a rating system in particular) nor about its mechanics (the way it's used to compare the relative skill levels of two people), to them it's only a number. And a scapegoat. If Riot gets rid of that, then people will actually believe, at least for awhile, that the problems that they came to associate with Elo, or Elo hell, are gone. To them, not being able to "lose a tier" is going to be much more visible than "having the end of season rewards based off of your top Elo", for example. It's exactly the same as currently, except it'll seem more important to them because they'll be exposed to it permanently. And that's because people care about semantics that the system should work in relieving "ladder anxiety" or the anger related to Elo from people. I'm fine with other people unable to look up my Elo btw (like not being able to use lolking and start stupid flaming in champ select anymore, for example), but not being able to see it myself and having a shiny medal instead is what made me angry about the lump of shit that this system is. So you're angry because you can't see a number and instead you get a medal.lol srsly people,who cares,just play the game I do understand it tho. Elo is a pretty accurate number to value your skill, while some medal isn't, especially if you can't lose it anymore once reached. ??????????? In league's system, Elo's hella high variance. It's not a good indicator of skill in the short-term.
While it's true that it somewhat high in variance, it's the most accurate thing there is? At least it's more accurate then the medal system. They still use it for matchmaking.
Anyway the argument that you still get good information out of it, and that the high variance is less displayed for players with less knowledge about the system seems very reasonable.
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On February 01 2013 06:33 onlywonderboy wrote:gg Riot appeals to the masses, Gothic Annie being sold repeatedly from the Collector's Edition on Feb 10th. Ha I don't really care but I find it interesting how people freaked out about not being able to buy this skin without buying the CE. I fully expect the same thing to happen to the Sivir skin once she gets her rework. Edit: Source
This makes me a happy man. I'm one of those few, proud players who bought a boxed copy (which I still have!) and got the least impressive skin in the world for my troubles. I've had Goth Annie on my smurf for ages, and being able to buy it for Montegomery proper will be nice.
Regarding Elo, it was never that great at measuring progress anyway. You can't look at Elo and make any meaningful conclusions about how you need to improve, or what improvements you've successfully made.
Imagine going into a video game store, only none of the games are labeled except for their final, overall review score from one particular magazine. The title, genre, style, developer, publisher, and even system are all obfuscated. All you have is a 1-10 score on a black case. That's approximately how useful Elo was for measuring anything.
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On February 01 2013 07:04 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 06:35 TheKefka wrote:On February 01 2013 06:26 Alaric wrote:On February 01 2013 06:15 TheKefka wrote:
You guys worry too much about semantics. It's not about us. Most of the people who play LoL and talk about "Elo hell", the "casual crowd" if you wish, have no idea what Elo actually is (as in a rating system in particular) nor about its mechanics (the way it's used to compare the relative skill levels of two people), to them it's only a number. And a scapegoat. If Riot gets rid of that, then people will actually believe, at least for awhile, that the problems that they came to associate with Elo, or Elo hell, are gone. To them, not being able to "lose a tier" is going to be much more visible than "having the end of season rewards based off of your top Elo", for example. It's exactly the same as currently, except it'll seem more important to them because they'll be exposed to it permanently. And that's because people care about semantics that the system should work in relieving "ladder anxiety" or the anger related to Elo from people. I'm fine with other people unable to look up my Elo btw (like not being able to use lolking and start stupid flaming in champ select anymore, for example), but not being able to see it myself and having a shiny medal instead is what made me angry about the lump of shit that this system is. So you're angry because you can't see a number and instead you get a medal.lol srsly people,who cares,just play the game I'm angry because the system is bad and I knew from the announcement that they would do it anyway, despite how bad SC2 proved it was, and the community backlash—from "informed" people that is, already knew reddit and the GD forums would love it anyway. And also because the idea behind the change is Riot taking the angry little kids by the end and soothing them with calm words and telling them everything will be fine, that they won't have to care about the big bad number anymore and they can compare their progress with their friends even more easily because they'll be in the same divisions, etc. Now switch the camera work a bit and look at it from another angle. Let's say, behind Riot's shoulder. "These poor little kids can't handle the Elo system, they obviously aren't prepared or smart enough to deal with it and use it as a measure of their progress effectively enough. We need to spoon-feed them with a pre-chewed gloubiboulga so they feel good about it". Or think about the parents giving horse steak to their kids and telling them it's beef because they'll eat it that way, it's just the idea of the horse that repulsed them. I'm angry become I consider myself reasonable enough to look at a number and handle it while keeping in mind its accurate but imprecise nature, so I can reflect on my own progress through it. But Riot's telling me "nope, you're as dumb as the masses". That's insulting. Look at it this way: if you run a marathon, what do you expect from the guy at the finish line? Your time, or a chocolate medal? Because this system is Riot switching from one to the other. And I've passed the age for chocolate medals.
Dude your posts are so huge for no fucking reason.
Scrubs are going to be scrubs,the people that get better get better,games are going to be the same,the layout changes and you can't see a number.Big.fucking.deal-
There's currently 3 "leagues" in dota.Normal,high,very high.No one complains about their "league".no one flames others because of arbitrary numbers,no one cares.People come play their games and if they get better they participate in better games.Pubs are pubs so who actually cares?No one.
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On February 01 2013 07:10 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 07:04 Alaric wrote:On February 01 2013 06:35 TheKefka wrote:On February 01 2013 06:26 Alaric wrote:On February 01 2013 06:15 TheKefka wrote:
You guys worry too much about semantics. It's not about us. Most of the people who play LoL and talk about "Elo hell", the "casual crowd" if you wish, have no idea what Elo actually is (as in a rating system in particular) nor about its mechanics (the way it's used to compare the relative skill levels of two people), to them it's only a number. And a scapegoat. If Riot gets rid of that, then people will actually believe, at least for awhile, that the problems that they came to associate with Elo, or Elo hell, are gone. To them, not being able to "lose a tier" is going to be much more visible than "having the end of season rewards based off of your top Elo", for example. It's exactly the same as currently, except it'll seem more important to them because they'll be exposed to it permanently. And that's because people care about semantics that the system should work in relieving "ladder anxiety" or the anger related to Elo from people. I'm fine with other people unable to look up my Elo btw (like not being able to use lolking and start stupid flaming in champ select anymore, for example), but not being able to see it myself and having a shiny medal instead is what made me angry about the lump of shit that this system is. So you're angry because you can't see a number and instead you get a medal.lol srsly people,who cares,just play the game I'm angry because the system is bad and I knew from the announcement that they would do it anyway, despite how bad SC2 proved it was, and the community backlash—from "informed" people that is, already knew reddit and the GD forums would love it anyway. And also because the idea behind the change is Riot taking the angry little kids by the end and soothing them with calm words and telling them everything will be fine, that they won't have to care about the big bad number anymore and they can compare their progress with their friends even more easily because they'll be in the same divisions, etc. Now switch the camera work a bit and look at it from another angle. Let's say, behind Riot's shoulder. "These poor little kids can't handle the Elo system, they obviously aren't prepared or smart enough to deal with it and use it as a measure of their progress effectively enough. We need to spoon-feed them with a pre-chewed gloubiboulga so they feel good about it". Or think about the parents giving horse steak to their kids and telling them it's beef because they'll eat it that way, it's just the idea of the horse that repulsed them. I'm angry become I consider myself reasonable enough to look at a number and handle it while keeping in mind its accurate but imprecise nature, so I can reflect on my own progress through it. But Riot's telling me "nope, you're as dumb as the masses". That's insulting. Look at it this way: if you run a marathon, what do you expect from the guy at the finish line? Your time, or a chocolate medal? Because this system is Riot switching from one to the other. And I've passed the age for chocolate medals. Dude your posts are so huge for no fucking reason.
I know. T_T Friggin' bad habit that I struggle to let go.
As for the number I know having almost peaked at 1500 doesn't make me gold in the slighest. Having dropped to 1100 from a bad streak during placements doesn't make me worse than 50% of the players. As long as I known that and reason in the long term, I prefer to have the number rather than a vague tierthat'll give me a wide bracket. It works the same but it makes it easier to me to associate a bad streak/playing with dc problems/getting carried with how well I seem adjusted to wherre the system puts me.
(Which is double of triple the number of characters I could have used to say that.)
As for the comparison with DotA that's how I said it: I don't care if I can't see other people's Elo (as long as I can have a rough idea of what the current highest is, or the repartition of Elo(s), since the system rates you relatively speaking). If the new system could rid us of the guys having a lolking tab opened as soon as they hit "Play", of course it's a good thing. It's purely for myself that I want to keep the number and I agree that waving it like an e-pen did nothing good for people that did that.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 01 2013 07:10 TheKefka wrote:
There's currently 3 "leagues" in dota.Normal,high,very high.No one complains about their "league".no one flames others because of arbitrary numbers,no one cares.People come play their games and if they get better they participate in better games.Pubs are pubs so who actually cares?No one.
Well, DBR caused a big enough hubbub that I'm not sure DotA is a good example here.
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EPT
