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United States15065 Posts
So, I had a thought last night. Probably crazy. Tell me what you think.
Deathcap is a bad item. Not bad from a you shouldn't get it perspective, it's really good. Bad from a game design perspective.
Deathcaps % AP bonus is so important in a 6 item build, that essentially all AP Mages have to get one. A lot of them get it as the first major item, some don't, but it's typically at least second or at most third on every AP Mage.
This has the effect of hamstringing item choices for these champions by giving them fewer item slots that they can switch around. Lets take Lux for an example, because I love Lux so much.
You have to get boots. You have to get a good mana regen item, which on her is pretty much always Athenes. You have to get a Deathcap. You have to get a Void Staff. This leaves you with two item slots that you can reasonably play with, and since the previous four items have no armor or HP on them, you also have to get a Zhonyas, leaving you really with only one item slot you can play around with, and typically it's your sixth item.
Lets posit the idea that Deathcap was just not in the game. To compensate, lets say AP items give more AP with the same prices, to make things equivalent. This would have the secondary effect of making AP more attractive to hybrid champions who tend to go for more AD and just a little AP and not be 50/50 (Kayle, Jax etc), but lets ignore that for now.
Suddenly, the AP Mage has a lot of options. Sure you can still grab an Athenes (or regen equivalent) and Void Staff as your core, but then by your third major item you're getting things based on the situation. It opens up options of things like Morellos, or Abyssal Scepter, or Rylais, or any number of options.
I know AD Carries are still more hamstringed in item choices, since some AP's (typically those that don't require a regen item) have more options, while all AD Carries still more or less get the same crap.
But I think this would be an improvement. Maybe I'm crazy.
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On January 15 2013 23:57 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 23:53 AsmodeusXI wrote:On January 15 2013 23:49 OutlaW- wrote:
I still don't understand why people should be banned for not behaving nicely. Do people get put into jail for screaming at someone and being vulgar? This guy got reported for acting douchey and whining. If it were up to me, the tribunal wouldn't exist. I probably wouldn't want to play with vman but that doesn't mean I'm going to ban him. The tribunal is filled with narcissistic justice freaks (and people who flat out spam punish). It makes me a bit angry. Don't think of it like jail. Think of it like a timeout. Children who behave badly get time to think about it. And the difference between children and adults is that adults have the opportunity to use that timeout to think about their actions and improve on them. We could use more things like that in the world, not just LoL. So Riot is handling every League of Legends player like a child? That only makes sense from a business stand point, not from a moral one. Just because children who misbehave get time to think about it doesn't mean it should be the same for League. I disagree that we should punish real people from above (like Riot does) for being douche bags. We simply stop hanging out with them etc. It's even easier to do this in League where you can 100% ignore somebody It's just people playing God wanting to remove people from their society (league) for being douchebags (which they can't do in real life - for good reason). I just disagree with it.
if they behave like children, they'll be treated as such
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About the deathcap thing, I get the same feeling on like eve, where you build all the mpen items and all of a sudden you're entirely out of slots, whereas when I play akali I have a bunch of different choices after gunblade
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On January 15 2013 19:31 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 19:25 Amui wrote:
I think that depends on the items in question. RoA Seraph's builds are probably the biggest outlier in that they are incredibly cost-effective when fully charged, and the health+shield is approximately equal to a warmogs. However if you are playing a champion who benefits hugely from alternative builds then a faster defensive item isn't bad.
Of course RoA Seraph is strong. It's essentially equivalent to double gp10 except instead of giving you direct gold, it's giving you HP/mana/AP. Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 19:25 Amui wrote:
I am against the idea of mid's getting locket/bulwark not because they're bad items, but because those items are best when rushed, and you give away a lot of your ability to control the early-midgame through damage, I think the need for damage is honestly overstated. On gank-oriented APs, there's obviously a need for damage, but on the more teamfight/farm-oriented mids like Anivia and Orianna, there's not as big a need for immediate damage. Teamfight strength comes in many forms, and so long as your other teammates all have the ability to provide damage, defensive utility is good. Froggen showed us this best on Anivia--he can maintain a very high teamfight presence in early teamfights even with an utter lack of damaging items. The logic is sensible, it's just that Froggen chose to buy selfish defensive items like Warmog's. We can achieve higher effectiveness by simply opting for team defensive items rather than just selfish personal-stat ones.
The discussion started with Locket, but this actually got me thinking. What about Bulwark on mids? It feels like it's too expensive for supports to get at any reasonable time, and mid could complete it before jungler to gain earlier dragon presence. Most current mids also roam and would provide the aura similar to a jungler during ganks.
It builds out of cloth armor too, if it is an AD mid. And if its an AP mid you give your creeps MR to reduce "push and roam." (Unfortunately Pen builds pretty much negate the MR you give.)
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United States23745 Posts
Overall I think Link will be good for CLG, he's shown a lot of potential and he's one of the few pro's that has shown a good mind for theorycrafting. I wasn't around when Jiji was the best mid so I don't have any allegiance to him, so I think this was a good decision. Hell, if this forces Jiji to practice and get better that would be awesome too, but he hasn't been performing up to snuff for a while so I'm not surprised they are at least going to try Link out.
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If you're adding 30 MR, you're adding 30 MR. Don't be so worried about it getting reduced. Flat pen is scariest when you have no additional MR - Bulwark is extremely important to keep a pen-stacking AP from reducing squishy MR to 0. Dropping someone's MR from 40 to 3 is a LOT bigger of a damage increase than from 70 to 33.
Post-voidstaff, things change a bit, but that's another story.
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On January 16 2013 00:25 justiceknight wrote:saw this on Westdoor's stream regarding TPS.Mistake's words regarding Jiji became a sub,any1 can translate? pic + Show Spoiler +
A bit transliterated since Mistake kinda just rambled on a bit.
Today I saw some news regarding CLG that jiji decided to switch to being the sub. When I saw that I felt like it was a shame. Since I met jiji 9 years ago we've always played together.o matter what game it was he wanted to be number 1, and he would also put in the effort to make that a reality, up to the point that we played LoL. During S1, out of the top 10 NA server accounts 3 were his, when I saw him made the decision to be a sub today I saw that it was not an easy decision for him to make.
I was even sadder when I saw the reason that he decided to become the sub, it was very unexpected for some guy that is so chill all the time to be affected by the comments by the netizens. When I have asked him in the past in passing he always say that he doesn't care but I believe that he was still very pained by the comments.
During the S2 world championships when IG just won their group stages and met M5, I asked their captain whether they were pressured or not. He told me that there is only one team in the entire world that IG can't lose to, and that is WE. Any other team is fine [to lose to] and they can handle it like it was just any other game. I ask him why that is, and he told me that it was "popular opinion" (someone give me a better word for this, either he made this up on the fly or it is some Chinese net slang that I am not good with)
When I thought about it then, popular opinion is a really scary thing. I've experienced it myself and I trust that everyone also know of how scary it is. [If] today jiji gave up because of the popular opinion against him, then who would give up tomorrow? I trust that if TPA didn't win S2 then we probably would've disbanded by now.
I hope that for jiji to become the sub would be a good decision for CLG, that'll at least make him a bit happier about the decision.
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On January 16 2013 00:57 Ecael wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 00:25 justiceknight wrote:saw this on Westdoor's stream regarding TPS.Mistake's words regarding Jiji became a sub,any1 can translate? pic + Show Spoiler + A bit transliterated since Mistake kinda just rambled on a bit. Today I saw some news regarding CLG that jiji decided to switch to being the sub. When I saw that I felt like it was a shame. Since I met jiji 9 years ago we've always played together.o matter what game it was he wanted to be number 1, and he would also put in the effort to make that a reality, up to the point that we played LoL. During S1, out of the top 10 NA server accounts 3 were his, when I saw him made the decision to be a sub today I saw that it was not an easy decision for him to make. I was even sadder when I saw the reason that he decided to become the sub, it was very unexpected for some guy that is so chill all the time to be affected by the comments by the netizens. When I have asked him in the past in passing he always say that he doesn't care but I believe that he was still very pained by the comments. During the S2 world championships when IG just won their group stages and met M5, I asked their captain whether they were pressured or not. He told me that there is only one team in the entire world that IG can't lose to, and that is WE. Any other team is fine [to lose to] and they can handle it like it was just any other game. I ask him why that is, and he told me that it was "popular opinion" (someone give me a better word for this, either he made this up on the fly or it is some Chinese net slang that I am not good with) When I thought about it then, popular opinion is a really scary thing. I've experienced it myself and I trust that everyone also know of how scary it is. [If] today jiji gave up because of the popular opinion against him, then who would give up tomorrow? I trust that if TPA didn't win S2 then we probably would've disbanded by now. I hope that for jiji to become the sub would be a good decision for CLG, that'll at least make him a bit happier about the decision.
this makes me even more sad. thanks for the translation by the way, didnt know you spoke chinese (?) as well
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On January 15 2013 23:49 OutlaW- wrote:
I still don't understand why people should be banned for not behaving nicely. Do people get put into jail for screaming at someone and being vulgar? This guy got reported for acting douchey and whining. If it were up to me, the tribunal wouldn't exist. I probably wouldn't want to play with vman but that doesn't mean I'm going to ban him. The tribunal is filled with narcissistic justice freaks (and people who flat out spam punish). It makes me a bit angry.
NO OUTLAW. DON'T GO DOWN THIS ROAD AGAIN
edit: Woah I fell behind in this thread
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Do legendary skins(H4H4H4H4 bot) ever go on sale?
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On January 16 2013 00:55 sylverfyre wrote:
If you're adding 30 MR, you're adding 30 MR. Don't be so worried about it getting reduced. Flat pen is scariest when you have no additional MR - Bulwark is extremely important to keep a pen-stacking AP from reducing squishy MR to 0. Dropping someone's MR from 40 to 3 is a LOT bigger of a damage increase than from 70 to 33.
Post-voidstaff, things change a bit, but that's another story.
He was talking about adding MR to lane minions to give them resistance to getting wavecleared, which probably isn't terribly effective when the difference is getting 10 MR reduced to 0 or 40 MR reduced to like, 2.
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On January 16 2013 00:25 justiceknight wrote:saw this on Westdoor's stream regarding TPS.Mistake's words regarding Jiji became a sub,any1 can translate? pic + Show Spoiler +
In short, he read jiji's post as that jiji stepped down because all of the fanboy chatter got to him, but jiji explicitly said that losing confidence was more because of teammates. Lillballz talks about how dangerous the spin/chatter/shittalk by fans of esports can be in general.
Not sure what the right terminology is, but the voices of fans can be and is damaging in every sport to its players. Players are also especially close to their fans in esports, and esports fans may even be more nasty with their opinions than the average sports fan. I feel like it's a fan's duty to maintain a certain sense of respect for players as an homage to basic human decency. No matter how badly a pro player performs, they devoted a huge deal of time to the game we all love. I'm sure that in every situation, no one wants the player to perform well more than himself.
Now's a good time as any to bring up the topic of criticizing pro players. In the BW days, whenever someone got stomped on stream during a PL match, it was as entertaining to see as a team getting destroyed in league. But one big difference I notice is that BW fans were much more aware of the skill gap between someone who could play a Korean televised BW game and the average BW player, much more so than the regular LoL fan has the same awareness, and respect for the skill gap between him and pro LoL players. I feel that, the culture of LoL fanboyism is that of an amateur one. The commentators only provide basic analysis. An overwhelming portion of league players do not play to improve. But the game is made in such a way that skill is not always immediately apparent to the observer. Again sorry to bring up BW again, but for example, just by a round of muta harass you can tell roughly someone's rank on iccup, while in LoL, people 500 elo apart can have roughly the same cs in lane after 10min depending on matchup.
All of this leads to what I believe to be an excessive amount of uninformed opinions about the game in general, from item builds to judgment of pro players. Uninformed opinions include straight up unknowingly uninformed opinions by the well intentioned to fanboy shittalk. While I have no duty or interest in defending every pro player from slander, I am however very often very annoyed by dumb comments posted on this forum that I have to skip while browsing. If you don't feel like pro players deserve some courtesy when being criticized for their play then I guess this post won't change anything. If you feel like your opinions are genuinely informed, please think it over again then post. This has nothing to do with criticizing progamers for anything outside of their gameplay.
Here's basically where I'm coming from. I try to watch a lot of pro games, and do watch most NA tourney games and EU games, maybe I'm ridiculously bad at understanding streamed games, but I feel like I can't attribute a lot if any qualifies to 90% of players. People say that jiji is passive? If I never read that, I probably wouldn't have formed that opinion myself. When it comes to jungling, the role I main, I can safely estimate that I don't understand half of the jungling decisions made during laning phase of any tourney level game. All of which brings the question, how the fuck do other people do it? People analyze pro LoL games as if it's the NBA. When I read a tourney thread I honestly don't know where people get most of their assumptions from. So then there's the other possibility, that most people don't know what they're talking about, but rather say something rather than nothing. They recycle opinions from others, elaborate on blatant misconceptions, make bold but ambiguous judgments, etc.This is all true for commentators, but I really hope TLers do less of this than commentators. But unfortunately it doesn't seem like the case.
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On January 16 2013 01:22 TheKefka wrote:
Do legendary skins(H4H4H4H4 bot) ever go on sale?
the only time for this was the old retired ones that they brought back for the christmas sale
but otherwise no
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On January 16 2013 01:22 TheKefka wrote:
Do legendary skins(H4H4H4H4 bot) ever go on sale?
Just find a rich friend to buy it for you :p
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On January 16 2013 01:34 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Here's basically where I'm coming from. I try to watch a lot of pro games, and do watch most NA tourney games and EU games, maybe I'm ridiculously bad at understanding streamed games, but I feel like I can't attribute a lot if any qualifies to 90% of players. People say that jiji is passive? If I never read that, I probably wouldn't have formed that opinion myself. When it comes to jungling, the role I main, I can safely estimate that I don't understand half of the jungling decisions made during laning phase of any tourney level game. All of which brings the question, how the fuck do other people do it? People analyze pro LoL games as if it's the NBA. When I read a tourney thread I honestly don't know where people get most of their assumptions from. So then there's the other possibility, that most people don't know what they're talking about, but rather say something rather than nothing. They recycle opinions from others, elaborate on blatant misconceptions, make bold but ambiguous judgments, etc.This is all true for commentators, but I really hope TLers do less of this than commentators. But unfortunately it doesn't seem like the case.
Very good post and i agree with you. For example during the lcs games this weekend there was so much trashtalking on the players. I can definetely see how it gets to them.
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Anyone know what runes/masteries Bischu runs for AP Midalee?
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On January 16 2013 01:54 emperorchampion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 01:22 TheKefka wrote:
Do legendary skins(H4H4H4H4 bot) ever go on sale? Just find a rich friend to buy it for you :p
meh I have the RP but don't feel like blowing half of it on one skin.I'd rather buy the jarvan legendary when it comes out.
Grungy nunu isn't too bad either.
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United States15536 Posts
On January 16 2013 01:34 zulu_nation8 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 16 2013 00:25 justiceknight wrote:saw this on Westdoor's stream regarding TPS.Mistake's words regarding Jiji became a sub,any1 can translate? pic + Show Spoiler + In short, he read jiji's post as that jiji stepped down because all of the fanboy chatter got to him, but jiji explicitly said that losing confidence was more because of teammates. Lillballz talks about how dangerous the spin/chatter/shittalk by fans of esports can be in general. Not sure what the right terminology is, but the voices of fans can be and is damaging in every sport to its players. Players are also especially close to their fans in esports, and esports fans may even be more nasty with their opinions than the average sports fan. I feel like it's a fan's duty to maintain a certain sense of respect for players as an homage to basic human decency. No matter how badly a pro player performs, they devoted a huge deal of time to the game we all love. I'm sure that in every situation, no one wants the player to perform well more than himself. Now's a good time as any to bring up the topic of criticizing pro players. In the BW days, whenever someone got stomped on stream during a PL match, it was as entertaining to see as a team getting destroyed in league. But one big difference I notice is that BW fans were much more aware of the skill gap between someone who could play a Korean televised BW game and the average BW player, much more so than the regular LoL fan has the same awareness, and respect for the skill gap between him and pro LoL players. I feel that, the culture of LoL fanboyism is that of an amateur one. The commentators only provide basic analysis. An overwhelming portion of league players do not play to improve. But the game is made in such a way that skill is not always immediately apparent to the observer. Again sorry to bring up BW again, but for example, just by a round of muta harass you can tell roughly someone's rank on iccup, while in LoL, people 500 elo apart can have roughly the same cs in lane after 10min depending on matchup. All of this leads to what I believe to be an excessive amount of uninformed opinions about the game in general, from item builds to judgment of pro players. Uninformed opinions include straight up unknowingly uninformed opinions by the well intentioned to fanboy shittalk. While I have no duty or interest in defending every pro player from slander, I am however very often very annoyed by dumb comments posted on this forum that I have to skip while browsing. If you don't feel like pro players deserve some courtesy when being criticized for their play then I guess this post won't change anything. If you feel like your opinions are genuinely informed, please think it over again then post. This has nothing to do with criticizing progamers for anything outside of their gameplay. Here's basically where I'm coming from. I try to watch a lot of pro games, and do watch most NA tourney games and EU games, maybe I'm ridiculously bad at understanding streamed games, but I feel like I can't attribute a lot if any qualifies to 90% of players. People say that jiji is passive? If I never read that, I probably wouldn't have formed that opinion myself. When it comes to jungling, the role I main, I can safely estimate that I don't understand half of the jungling decisions made during laning phase of any tourney level game. All of which brings the question, how the fuck do other people do it? People analyze pro LoL games as if it's the NBA. When I read a tourney thread I honestly don't know where people get most of their assumptions from. So then there's the other possibility, that most people don't know what they're talking about, but rather say something rather than nothing. They recycle opinions from others, elaborate on blatant misconceptions, make bold but ambiguous judgments, etc.This is all true for commentators, but I really hope TLers do less of this than commentators. But unfortunately it doesn't seem like the case.
I guess my only question then is what you would like the casters to do instead? They're attempting to analyze the game because people find that knowledge entertaining; it's their job to. I'll totally agree that it's our job as fans to A) Understand we don't know what the pros are doing or why, B) Attempt to answer that question ourselves in an intelligent manner before casting aspersions, C) Make our own calls on why these things are occurring and assess what we think their effect on the game was (good or bad), D) ONLY make commentary based on that (because we're on a forum; we're here to discuss), and E) Above all respect the players because they're the ones providing us with the opportunity to have this fun in the first place.
It's just that casters have 5 seconds to do all of it. =/ Sucky, for sure, but there's not much that can be done. I guess it just gives us an additional incentive to make our own judgments. The caster's job is overall to entertain rather than inform: they can make (perhaps) decent guesses, but it's entirely probably that they'll be wrong.
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gentleman chogath is probably my single most satisfying purchace ever.
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On January 16 2013 02:02 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 01:34 zulu_nation8 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 16 2013 00:25 justiceknight wrote:saw this on Westdoor's stream regarding TPS.Mistake's words regarding Jiji became a sub,any1 can translate? pic + Show Spoiler + In short, he read jiji's post as that jiji stepped down because all of the fanboy chatter got to him, but jiji explicitly said that losing confidence was more because of teammates. Lillballz talks about how dangerous the spin/chatter/shittalk by fans of esports can be in general. Not sure what the right terminology is, but the voices of fans can be and is damaging in every sport to its players. Players are also especially close to their fans in esports, and esports fans may even be more nasty with their opinions than the average sports fan. I feel like it's a fan's duty to maintain a certain sense of respect for players as an homage to basic human decency. No matter how badly a pro player performs, they devoted a huge deal of time to the game we all love. I'm sure that in every situation, no one wants the player to perform well more than himself. Now's a good time as any to bring up the topic of criticizing pro players. In the BW days, whenever someone got stomped on stream during a PL match, it was as entertaining to see as a team getting destroyed in league. But one big difference I notice is that BW fans were much more aware of the skill gap between someone who could play a Korean televised BW game and the average BW player, much more so than the regular LoL fan has the same awareness, and respect for the skill gap between him and pro LoL players. I feel that, the culture of LoL fanboyism is that of an amateur one. The commentators only provide basic analysis. An overwhelming portion of league players do not play to improve. But the game is made in such a way that skill is not always immediately apparent to the observer. Again sorry to bring up BW again, but for example, just by a round of muta harass you can tell roughly someone's rank on iccup, while in LoL, people 500 elo apart can have roughly the same cs in lane after 10min depending on matchup. All of this leads to what I believe to be an excessive amount of uninformed opinions about the game in general, from item builds to judgment of pro players. Uninformed opinions include straight up unknowingly uninformed opinions by the well intentioned to fanboy shittalk. While I have no duty or interest in defending every pro player from slander, I am however very often very annoyed by dumb comments posted on this forum that I have to skip while browsing. If you don't feel like pro players deserve some courtesy when being criticized for their play then I guess this post won't change anything. If you feel like your opinions are genuinely informed, please think it over again then post. This has nothing to do with criticizing progamers for anything outside of their gameplay. Here's basically where I'm coming from. I try to watch a lot of pro games, and do watch most NA tourney games and EU games, maybe I'm ridiculously bad at understanding streamed games, but I feel like I can't attribute a lot if any qualifies to 90% of players. People say that jiji is passive? If I never read that, I probably wouldn't have formed that opinion myself. When it comes to jungling, the role I main, I can safely estimate that I don't understand half of the jungling decisions made during laning phase of any tourney level game. All of which brings the question, how the fuck do other people do it? People analyze pro LoL games as if it's the NBA. When I read a tourney thread I honestly don't know where people get most of their assumptions from. So then there's the other possibility, that most people don't know what they're talking about, but rather say something rather than nothing. They recycle opinions from others, elaborate on blatant misconceptions, make bold but ambiguous judgments, etc.This is all true for commentators, but I really hope TLers do less of this than commentators. But unfortunately it doesn't seem like the case. I guess my only question then is what you would like the casters to do instead? They're attempting to analyze the game because people find that knowledge entertaining; it's their job to. I'll totally agree that it's our job as fans to A) Understand we don't know what the pros are doing or why, B) Attempt to answer that question ourselves in an intelligent manner before casting aspersions, C) Make our own calls on why these things are occurring and assess what we think their effect on the game was (good or bad), D) ONLY make commentary based on that (because we're on a forum; we're here to discuss), and E) Above all respect the players because they're the ones providing us with the opportunity to have this fun in the first place. It's just that casters have 5 seconds to do all of it. =/ Sucky, for sure, but there's not much that can be done. I guess it just gives us an additional incentive to make our own judgments. The caster's job is overall to entertain rather than inform: they can make (perhaps) decent guesses, but it's entirely probably that they'll be wrong.
I think everything to be said about casters has been said but just going off of watching the LCS this past weekend, there were a lot of obvious observations that were either missed or ignored in favor of irrelevant information. To provide a simple commentary of anything, you have to have a professional's understanding. High school science books are written by professors rather than students. Also I think it's hilarious that people like montecristo gives "analysis" that's respected. The painfully obvious question is on what grounds does he assume to be an authority on LoL knowledge? Similar to riotjaws, to whoever else, etc. I thought kobe24 did a nice job even though I'm not sure if he still plays anymore and he hasn't played at a high level in forever.
Basically, to commentate on something is to assume authority of something kind. If I'm commentating my roommate's making dinner it is implied that I'm an authority on this subject, otherwise I'd be wasting everyone's time by spouting off opinions that's as valuable as anyone else's. When Riot hires commentators you would think they would try to get people who actually play the game and are authorities on the subject of professional LoL games. This is only for the commentators who provide analysis btw, play-by-play people can say whatever they want as long as they are not blatantly wrong.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/thefrog_/aaa-12.jpg)
