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5v4, but yeah, Team Royal had very weak teamfighting compared to WE, and they didn't manage to get the gold lead they needed.
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On January 14 2013 22:37 Vallelol wrote:
Does anyone know how much AP would equal the Magic Penetration of SorcBoots against a target with like 100 MR? (I honestly do not know if the amount of MR has an effect on flat MagicPen)
I like to get Mobility Boots on my midlane Lux, but always feel like I am missing too much damage with it at some point of the game :O
(Base dmg + AP ratio * current AP) of spell combo * ( ( MR - (%MPen * MR + current flat MPen + additional flat Mpen) ) / ( MR + 100) ) - ( MR - (%MPen * MR + flat MPen) ) / ( MR + 100) ) ) = AP ratio of spell combo * additional AP
Edit: Not quite sure the parentheses are correct on that formula. Here is a quick spread sheet that is corect to get your answer.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjyA8n9uoAXsdGJrQndWWEk2b3ZKVmpmUDFYNlRHaXc#gid=0
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On January 14 2013 22:47 justiceknight wrote:
rofl Team Royal got all the dragon and buffs for the whole game and WE takes the game with just 1 5v5 fight rofl.
5v4. Shaco tried too hard with split pushing. WE just slammed down in mid.
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On January 14 2013 22:54 jadoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 22:37 Vallelol wrote:
Does anyone know how much AP would equal the Magic Penetration of SorcBoots against a target with like 100 MR? (I honestly do not know if the amount of MR has an effect on flat MagicPen)
I like to get Mobility Boots on my midlane Lux, but always feel like I am missing too much damage with it at some point of the game :O (Base dmg + AP ratio * current AP) of spell combo * ( ( MR - (%MPen * MR + current flat MPen + additional flat Mpen) ) / ( MR + 100) ) - ( MR - (%MPen * MR + flat MPen) ) / ( MR + 100) ) ) = AP ratio of spell combo * additional AP Edit: Not quite sure the parentheses are correct on that formula. Here is a quick spread sheet that is corect to get your answer. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjyA8n9uoAXsdGJrQndWWEk2b3ZKVmpmUDFYNlRHaXc#gid=0
Thank you very much for this, just 1 quick question, what is the difference between current flat MPen and additional flat Mpen in this context?
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On January 14 2013 23:27 Vallelol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 22:54 jadoth wrote:On January 14 2013 22:37 Vallelol wrote:
Does anyone know how much AP would equal the Magic Penetration of SorcBoots against a target with like 100 MR? (I honestly do not know if the amount of MR has an effect on flat MagicPen)
I like to get Mobility Boots on my midlane Lux, but always feel like I am missing too much damage with it at some point of the game :O (Base dmg + AP ratio * current AP) of spell combo * ( ( MR - (%MPen * MR + current flat MPen + additional flat Mpen) ) / ( MR + 100) ) - ( MR - (%MPen * MR + flat MPen) ) / ( MR + 100) ) ) = AP ratio of spell combo * additional AP Edit: Not quite sure the parentheses are correct on that formula. Here is a quick spread sheet that is corect to get your answer. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjyA8n9uoAXsdGJrQndWWEk2b3ZKVmpmUDFYNlRHaXc#gid=0 Thank you very much for this, just 1 quick question, what is the difference between current flat MPen and additional flat Mpen in this context?
Current flat MPen is the MPen you already have from your runes or a haunting guise or w/e. Additional flat MPen is the MPen you would get from buying the item in question, so 20. Same goes for additional AP vs current AP.
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Penetration is better at low resistance levels (unless you "overpen" past zero but it's rarely actually a problem if you're doing true damage). If your target has 15MR (after reductions and %pen) then 15 mpen will increase your magic damage against that target by 15%. If your target has 100MR then 15mpen will increase your magic damage against that target by 8.5%.
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Australia18228 Posts
On January 14 2013 20:35 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 20:34 AsnSensation wrote:
Why would csing on corki be harder than any other ranged ad? Trist i can understand because the passive of e sometimes lowers minions so you cant get the second one.
Sometime people also like to run. 6 ad marks +. 3 at spd on vayne, twitch animation blows until you get some attack speed from levels
? Corki has one of the best attacking animations. It's so smooth
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On January 14 2013 23:44 thenexusp wrote:
Penetration is better at low resistance levels (unless you "overpen" past zero but it's rarely actually a problem if you're doing true damage). If your target has 15MR (after reductions and %pen) then 15 mpen will increase your magic damage against that target by 15%. If your target has 100MR then 15mpen will increase your magic damage against that target by 8.5%.
to follow that up a question:
Should I run Armor Pen or AD Marks+Quints on Olaf? I know NintendudeX and Oddone used full ArPen setup in the jungle but Q also scales with bonus ad so I don't know which one does actually more dmg.
For top AD helps to lasthit under tower if you are forced to do so.
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On January 14 2013 21:31 Doctorbeat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 21:28 Bwaaaa wrote:On January 14 2013 21:11 BlueSpace wrote:On January 14 2013 21:05 Bwaaaa wrote:On January 14 2013 20:32 GregMandel wrote:On January 14 2013 18:30 Filter wrote:
This is going to sound insane, but I really think Zed is a legitimate bot laner in place of a more traditional ADC. Before you rip it, go ahead and try it out. Zed+CC based support like Blitz, Taric, Leona works really well and I've put in about 20 games with a buddy doing it winning around 80% of them. I wonder how much is the shock of Zed being played in that lane, and how much is actually his kit making it work though.
The basic idea is that Zed can use his Q to get early farm/poke harass from outside an adc's range (even caits). His base movement speed means he doesn't need to get boots at all really in the lane phase (Adc's need Tier 2 boots to really be faster than him). He's then able to use his shadow/shadow slash to harass extremely well from range. He's great in condensed fights with huge sustained AoE damage when things get up close. With somebody like Blitz or Leona his level 6 is a 100% kill if the support can land skills, even with no items he's perfectly capable of hammering a 100% to 0 death at level 6 with a bit of help. He's also an extremely good farmer, capable of taking entire creep waves in a single spell. He can even range clear them if need be.
Zed's 6 item build is also extremely cheap (favoring tabs, double bt, lw, warmog, ga, all "big" items are only 2600 gold). His impact in teamfights is crazy, he has the ability to not only burst the other teams adcs right away but if you position yourself and your shadows right you can do a ton of AoE to the rest of the team too. With his 450-500ad and 30% lifesteal his auto's also hurt when people are close to him.
Give it a shot with a buddy and tell me how you think it feels, but in the games I played it felt really good. Above and beyond just cheesing the lane with a bruiser he feels like he transitions to teamfights extremely well, something your average assassin/burst caster can't do as well as an adc. I don't see Zed being an ADC, his kit will make so that he gets insta-killed if he ults in, and the goal of an ADC is to make sustained damage rather than trade a kill for a kill You are not supposed to play him that way, and I don't know but maybe in higher ELO than yours ( and mine too, I'm bad ) it just isn't possible against any decent players, because you just get owned as a melee ad carry with really weak HP and resists ( Just my humble opinion tho ) ( And I think its not that much that he's a bad ADC, it's more the fact that you force your to play without a real one like Ez, Cait or graves ) I don't think he is arguing that zed can be a substitute to an ad carry but that he jut makes a really good kill lane bot. You can always end an ad solotop or mid and still have the role. On a semi related note is corki still a viable top lane this season? I played him a lot S2 but haven't had the oppourtunity lately. Edit: my keyboard is dying and not picking up c's and s's very well. I think the more interesting question is why the meta is so stuck to the ad+support model. There are solo lanes in which an ad carry would do very well without a support. So why stick him into the duo lane? Run a kill lane against the enemy ad and put your own ad into a solo lane, when the opportunity arises. Maybe it's really bad, but I find it hard to believe that there aren't at least some compositions which would favor that. It is not that ads cannot go with out a support it is that they can share exp while still functioning at 90% capacity. Mages and bruiser need levels much more than ads so they get the solo lanes while the ad get the support because they don;t care about the lost exp in exchange for much easier farming and free wards. Adding on to that, ADs build squishy and can thus be easily dived under their turret by a solo lane bruiser and a jungler. They are the most valuable character, why would you not choose to support them?
It's not that I don't want to support them. I'm just saying that in specific matchups they might do well without support. So if I can have my adc do well and then create a kill lane that makes life for the opponent adc living hell, than I can put my ad ahead of the enemy ad. To certain extent this will happen at the expense of whoever I stuck into double lane but if my adc does well in his lane I also punish the solo lane of the opponent that he is in.
There are a lot of "ifs" and it is a very specific scenario but this is exactly what I mean. Teams could try to develop an edge by using these kind of niche strategies. It gives them an additional dimension during drafting.
Regarding adc being squishy, aren't mages also squishy? They also do fine mid without dying all the time.
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On January 15 2013 00:15 Inflicted_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 20:35 UniversalSnip wrote:On January 14 2013 20:34 AsnSensation wrote:
Why would csing on corki be harder than any other ranged ad? Trist i can understand because the passive of e sometimes lowers minions so you cant get the second one.
Sometime people also like to run. 6 ad marks +. 3 at spd on vayne, twitch animation blows until you get some attack speed from levels ? Corki has one of the best attacking animations. It's so smooth
plus corki's passive makes your last hit window pretty fucking huge.
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I remember finding out at least aphro does it too... if you guys want a 'name' so you don't just default to 'standard is best'
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I have a raging hard-on for MF's auto animation. It's just so perfect.
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I think generally, arpen runes is always going to do more damage against champions than AD runes, at the cost of last-hitting ability. Of course, last-hitting ability isn't really that important in the jungle. In addition, unlike lane creeps, the jungle monsters all start with a small amount natural armor (buff camps have 20) meaning arpen will actually increase your damage against them by quite a lot.
If all you want to do is clear jungle monsters though, AS runes are still the best because machete 10 true damage.
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On January 15 2013 00:54 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 00:15 Inflicted_ wrote:On January 14 2013 20:35 UniversalSnip wrote:On January 14 2013 20:34 AsnSensation wrote:
Why would csing on corki be harder than any other ranged ad? Trist i can understand because the passive of e sometimes lowers minions so you cant get the second one.
Sometime people also like to run. 6 ad marks +. 3 at spd on vayne, twitch animation blows until you get some attack speed from levels ? Corki has one of the best attacking animations. It's so smooth plus corki's passive makes your last hit window pretty fucking huge.
If you're going to fire just 1 hit, sure. But if you're in a teamfight, I prefer more fluid animations (that flow).
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On January 15 2013 00:16 AsnSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 23:44 thenexusp wrote:
Penetration is better at low resistance levels (unless you "overpen" past zero but it's rarely actually a problem if you're doing true damage). If your target has 15MR (after reductions and %pen) then 15 mpen will increase your magic damage against that target by 15%. If your target has 100MR then 15mpen will increase your magic damage against that target by 8.5%.
to follow that up a question: Should I run Armor Pen or AD Marks+Quints on Olaf? I know NintendudeX and Oddone used full ArPen setup in the jungle but Q also scales with bonus ad so I don't know which one does actually more dmg. For top AD helps to lasthit under tower if you are forced to do so.
Which is better is going to depend upon the scenario under consideration. Because there isn't one setup that's clearly better it's common to run AD Quints and Armor Penetration Marks. It's the best of both worlds, helping last-hitting while taking advantage of each stat where it's most efficient.
On January 15 2013 00:42 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 21:31 Doctorbeat wrote:On January 14 2013 21:28 Bwaaaa wrote:On January 14 2013 21:11 BlueSpace wrote:On January 14 2013 21:05 Bwaaaa wrote:On January 14 2013 20:32 GregMandel wrote:On January 14 2013 18:30 Filter wrote:
This is going to sound insane, but I really think Zed is a legitimate bot laner in place of a more traditional ADC. Before you rip it, go ahead and try it out. Zed+CC based support like Blitz, Taric, Leona works really well and I've put in about 20 games with a buddy doing it winning around 80% of them. I wonder how much is the shock of Zed being played in that lane, and how much is actually his kit making it work though.
The basic idea is that Zed can use his Q to get early farm/poke harass from outside an adc's range (even caits). His base movement speed means he doesn't need to get boots at all really in the lane phase (Adc's need Tier 2 boots to really be faster than him). He's then able to use his shadow/shadow slash to harass extremely well from range. He's great in condensed fights with huge sustained AoE damage when things get up close. With somebody like Blitz or Leona his level 6 is a 100% kill if the support can land skills, even with no items he's perfectly capable of hammering a 100% to 0 death at level 6 with a bit of help. He's also an extremely good farmer, capable of taking entire creep waves in a single spell. He can even range clear them if need be.
Zed's 6 item build is also extremely cheap (favoring tabs, double bt, lw, warmog, ga, all "big" items are only 2600 gold). His impact in teamfights is crazy, he has the ability to not only burst the other teams adcs right away but if you position yourself and your shadows right you can do a ton of AoE to the rest of the team too. With his 450-500ad and 30% lifesteal his auto's also hurt when people are close to him.
Give it a shot with a buddy and tell me how you think it feels, but in the games I played it felt really good. Above and beyond just cheesing the lane with a bruiser he feels like he transitions to teamfights extremely well, something your average assassin/burst caster can't do as well as an adc. I don't see Zed being an ADC, his kit will make so that he gets insta-killed if he ults in, and the goal of an ADC is to make sustained damage rather than trade a kill for a kill You are not supposed to play him that way, and I don't know but maybe in higher ELO than yours ( and mine too, I'm bad ) it just isn't possible against any decent players, because you just get owned as a melee ad carry with really weak HP and resists ( Just my humble opinion tho ) ( And I think its not that much that he's a bad ADC, it's more the fact that you force your to play without a real one like Ez, Cait or graves ) I don't think he is arguing that zed can be a substitute to an ad carry but that he jut makes a really good kill lane bot. You can always end an ad solotop or mid and still have the role. On a semi related note is corki still a viable top lane this season? I played him a lot S2 but haven't had the oppourtunity lately. Edit: my keyboard is dying and not picking up c's and s's very well. I think the more interesting question is why the meta is so stuck to the ad+support model. There are solo lanes in which an ad carry would do very well without a support. So why stick him into the duo lane? Run a kill lane against the enemy ad and put your own ad into a solo lane, when the opportunity arises. Maybe it's really bad, but I find it hard to believe that there aren't at least some compositions which would favor that. It is not that ads cannot go with out a support it is that they can share exp while still functioning at 90% capacity. Mages and bruiser need levels much more than ads so they get the solo lanes while the ad get the support because they don;t care about the lost exp in exchange for much easier farming and free wards. Adding on to that, ADs build squishy and can thus be easily dived under their turret by a solo lane bruiser and a jungler. They are the most valuable character, why would you not choose to support them? It's not that I don't want to support them. I'm just saying that in specific matchups they might do well without support. So if I can have my adc do well and then create a kill lane that makes life for the opponent adc living hell, than I can put my ad ahead of the enemy ad. To certain extent this will happen at the expense of whoever I stuck into double lane but if my adc does well in his lane I also punish the solo lane of the opponent that he is in. There are a lot of "ifs" and it is a very specific scenario but this is exactly what I mean. Teams could try to develop an edge by using these kind of niche strategies. It gives them an additional dimension during drafting. Regarding adc being squishy, aren't mages also squishy? They also do fine mid without dying all the time.
It's not just the lack of defenses, but also the lack of offense. In most cases it's a lot safer to gank/dive a solitary AD than an AP because the former has significantly less burst/CC early on compared to the latter. Moreover, even if an AP champion is shut down and has trouble farming, their base damage combined with their utility will typically prevent them from becoming useless. If an AD carry is shut down they're usually dead weight.
This is not to say your idea lacks merit, it's just an explanation of the current situation. Understanding the hows and whys of the current meta will help you flesh out your idea.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 15 2013 01:16 Seuss wrote:
It's not just the lack of defenses, but also the lack of offense. In most cases it's a lot safer to gank/dive a solitary AD than an AP because the former has significantly less burst/CC early on compared to the latter. Moreover, even if an AP champion is shut down and has trouble farming, their base damage combined with their utility will typically prevent them from becoming useless. If an AD carry is shut down they're usually dead weight.
This is not to say your idea lacks merit, it's just an explanation of the current situation. Understanding the hows and whys of the current meta will help you flesh out your idea.
On the flip side, ADs typically have a much easier time getting farm in a 1v2. A 1v2 melee is very typically just sneaking XP. Even if a 1v2 AD died once or twice, they would probably have more farm overall than a 1v2 melee.
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On January 15 2013 01:06 thenexusp wrote:
I think generally, arpen runes is always going to do more damage against champions than AD runes, at the cost of last-hitting ability. Of course, last-hitting ability isn't really that important in the jungle. In addition, unlike lane creeps, the jungle monsters all start with a small amount natural armor (buff camps have 20) meaning arpen will actually increase your damage against them by quite a lot.
If all you want to do is clear jungle monsters though, AS runes are still the best because machete 10 true damage.
There's a lot of math for this, and it isn't really true. On abilities that deal physical damage it is (because you're multiplying a bigger number than your base AD) but on autoattacks it isn't true unless you build some AD and they don't build armor - at least until LW.
Trying to find the S3 graphs for it... remember, ArPen got worse (but it's better post-LW / cleaver with the % changes.)
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On January 15 2013 00:42 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 21:31 Doctorbeat wrote:On January 14 2013 21:28 Bwaaaa wrote:On January 14 2013 21:11 BlueSpace wrote:On January 14 2013 21:05 Bwaaaa wrote:On January 14 2013 20:32 GregMandel wrote:On January 14 2013 18:30 Filter wrote:
This is going to sound insane, but I really think Zed is a legitimate bot laner in place of a more traditional ADC. Before you rip it, go ahead and try it out. Zed+CC based support like Blitz, Taric, Leona works really well and I've put in about 20 games with a buddy doing it winning around 80% of them. I wonder how much is the shock of Zed being played in that lane, and how much is actually his kit making it work though.
The basic idea is that Zed can use his Q to get early farm/poke harass from outside an adc's range (even caits). His base movement speed means he doesn't need to get boots at all really in the lane phase (Adc's need Tier 2 boots to really be faster than him). He's then able to use his shadow/shadow slash to harass extremely well from range. He's great in condensed fights with huge sustained AoE damage when things get up close. With somebody like Blitz or Leona his level 6 is a 100% kill if the support can land skills, even with no items he's perfectly capable of hammering a 100% to 0 death at level 6 with a bit of help. He's also an extremely good farmer, capable of taking entire creep waves in a single spell. He can even range clear them if need be.
Zed's 6 item build is also extremely cheap (favoring tabs, double bt, lw, warmog, ga, all "big" items are only 2600 gold). His impact in teamfights is crazy, he has the ability to not only burst the other teams adcs right away but if you position yourself and your shadows right you can do a ton of AoE to the rest of the team too. With his 450-500ad and 30% lifesteal his auto's also hurt when people are close to him.
Give it a shot with a buddy and tell me how you think it feels, but in the games I played it felt really good. Above and beyond just cheesing the lane with a bruiser he feels like he transitions to teamfights extremely well, something your average assassin/burst caster can't do as well as an adc. I don't see Zed being an ADC, his kit will make so that he gets insta-killed if he ults in, and the goal of an ADC is to make sustained damage rather than trade a kill for a kill You are not supposed to play him that way, and I don't know but maybe in higher ELO than yours ( and mine too, I'm bad ) it just isn't possible against any decent players, because you just get owned as a melee ad carry with really weak HP and resists ( Just my humble opinion tho ) ( And I think its not that much that he's a bad ADC, it's more the fact that you force your to play without a real one like Ez, Cait or graves ) I don't think he is arguing that zed can be a substitute to an ad carry but that he jut makes a really good kill lane bot. You can always end an ad solotop or mid and still have the role. On a semi related note is corki still a viable top lane this season? I played him a lot S2 but haven't had the oppourtunity lately. Edit: my keyboard is dying and not picking up c's and s's very well. I think the more interesting question is why the meta is so stuck to the ad+support model. There are solo lanes in which an ad carry would do very well without a support. So why stick him into the duo lane? Run a kill lane against the enemy ad and put your own ad into a solo lane, when the opportunity arises. Maybe it's really bad, but I find it hard to believe that there aren't at least some compositions which would favor that. It is not that ads cannot go with out a support it is that they can share exp while still functioning at 90% capacity. Mages and bruiser need levels much more than ads so they get the solo lanes while the ad get the support because they don;t care about the lost exp in exchange for much easier farming and free wards. Adding on to that, ADs build squishy and can thus be easily dived under their turret by a solo lane bruiser and a jungler. They are the most valuable character, why would you not choose to support them? It's not that I don't want to support them. I'm just saying that in specific matchups they might do well without support. So if I can have my adc do well and then create a kill lane that makes life for the opponent adc living hell, than I can put my ad ahead of the enemy ad. To certain extent this will happen at the expense of whoever I stuck into double lane but if my adc does well in his lane I also punish the solo lane of the opponent that he is in. There are a lot of "ifs" and it is a very specific scenario but this is exactly what I mean. Teams could try to develop an edge by using these kind of niche strategies. It gives them an additional dimension during drafting. Regarding adc being squishy, aren't mages also squishy? They also do fine mid without dying all the time.
With some match-ups AD can take the choice between mid or top, I'd say mid is best but dependant on the match-up. We've seen Froggen go Corki mid and he did well, I wouldn't be surprised to see Caitlyn, Ezreal, Corki or a few others with good escape or zoning doing well in that lane, allowing the kill lane bot.
I think it might be too dependent on taking kills early game and how safe/risky the enemy ADC/support are, but swapping the AP and the AD in situations where it would be beneficial and create easier lanes could really give a team the edge.
One of the drawbacks would be that the AD could not roam as easily since any competent jungler or assasin mid could counter roam and destroy them if they catch them away from their towers or teammates, so I think you would need a roaming support and good ward coverage to properly protect the AD when they are roaming or meeting at dragon.
Overall it has its drawbacks but if the lane advantage is going to guarantee you better farm and possibly shutting down their ADC completely while giving their mid a hard time I think it is completely worth it.
Edit: You mention about mages being squishy but being fine in mid. I think this is due to their 1v1 power during the laning phase, that they can freely roam river and their jungle since they can easily 1v1 the enemy jungle if they get caught out: AD's can't do this and their escapes are limited deep into their jungle, compared to AP's who have binds (Morgana, lux, Ryze), blinks (Ahri, Kassa), AOE slows (Orianna, Karthus) or stuns, silences and enough damage to force the opponent away. Ad's have short dashes jumps or blinks which are great in lane, but not so great in the jungle or river.
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On January 15 2013 01:27 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 01:06 thenexusp wrote:
I think generally, arpen runes is always going to do more damage against champions than AD runes, at the cost of last-hitting ability. Of course, last-hitting ability isn't really that important in the jungle. In addition, unlike lane creeps, the jungle monsters all start with a small amount natural armor (buff camps have 20) meaning arpen will actually increase your damage against them by quite a lot.
If all you want to do is clear jungle monsters though, AS runes are still the best because machete 10 true damage. There's a lot of math for this, and it isn't really true. On abilities that deal physical damage it is (because you're multiplying a bigger number than your base AD) but on autoattacks it isn't true unless you build some AD and they don't build armor - at least until LW. Trying to find the S3 graphs for it... remember, ArPen got worse (but it's better post-LW / cleaver with the % changes.)
hmm, I probably should have clarified I was talking about "a general situation olaf will get into" and not "a general champion" (and maybe actually quoted the guy I was responding to)
I also forgot about olaf's free AS from his passive so maybe my second statement isn't quite correct either. hmmmmm....
I'm also wondering about that hybrid Arpen marks and AD quints build -- is that any good?
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EPT
