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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On January 14 2013 17:47 TheYango wrote:
What are peoples' thoughts on the map imbalance in competitive play? Looking at the stats from the NA LCS qualifiers, the thing that stands out to me is the Blue/Purple imbalance. 65%/35% passes the point of "acceptable" to "troublesome".
What would people think of swapping blue side/purple side 1st pick? I know traditionally, Chinese DotA tournaments tend to give Sentinel Side (bottom side of the map) first pick because the map is generally considered to favor Scourge. LoL matches this by giving Blue team first pick, but since the map imbalance favors Blue in LoL, the most sensible choice seems like it would be to give the draft advantage to the Purple side.
I might be the only person who prefers both purple side of the map and especially second pick as opposed to first pick. Mostly because of the lastpick, which allows you to pick some wacky weird thing like Kassadin for last, which might be something you could not afford to do otherwise. It's just more tricky to play the blue side imo.
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This is going to sound insane, but I really think Zed is a legitimate bot laner in place of a more traditional ADC. Before you rip it, go ahead and try it out. Zed+CC based support like Blitz, Taric, Leona works really well and I've put in about 20 games with a buddy doing it winning around 80% of them. I wonder how much is the shock of Zed being played in that lane, and how much is actually his kit making it work though.
The basic idea is that Zed can use his Q to get early farm/poke harass from outside an adc's range (even caits). His base movement speed means he doesn't need to get boots at all really in the lane phase (Adc's need Tier 2 boots to really be faster than him). He's then able to use his shadow/shadow slash to harass extremely well from range. He's great in condensed fights with huge sustained AoE damage when things get up close. With somebody like Blitz or Leona his level 6 is a 100% kill if the support can land skills, even with no items he's perfectly capable of hammering a 100% to 0 death at level 6 with a bit of help. He's also an extremely good farmer, capable of taking entire creep waves in a single spell. He can even range clear them if need be.
Zed's 6 item build is also extremely cheap (favoring tabs, double bt, lw, warmog, ga, all "big" items are only 2600 gold). His impact in teamfights is crazy, he has the ability to not only burst the other teams adcs right away but if you position yourself and your shadows right you can do a ton of AoE to the rest of the team too. With his 450-500ad and 30% lifesteal his auto's also hurt when people are close to him.
Give it a shot with a buddy and tell me how you think it feels, but in the games I played it felt really good. Above and beyond just cheesing the lane with a bruiser he feels like he transitions to teamfights extremely well, something your average assassin/burst caster can't do as well as an adc.
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On January 14 2013 18:21 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 18:12 JALbert wrote:
I think that the number is incredibly suspect when teams are seeded and the higher seeded team get blue twice.
It's not the only statistic supporting it though. Consider the 11 Bo2s that went 1-1 in OGN groupstage. 8 of them blue team won both games, and in only 3 of them did purple team win both games.
Tbh, I think map imbalances are too much in terms of the maps, and less so the order of who picks first. Also introducing an imbalance to counteract a non related mechanic, is a pretty inelegant solution. Also you'd have to prove first pick/ban is favored.
Zed botlane would just be a variant of old school double bruiser botlane... nothing new btw imo.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 14 2013 18:36 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 18:21 TheYango wrote:On January 14 2013 18:12 JALbert wrote:
I think that the number is incredibly suspect when teams are seeded and the higher seeded team get blue twice.
It's not the only statistic supporting it though. Consider the 11 Bo2s that went 1-1 in OGN groupstage. 8 of them blue team won both games, and in only 3 of them did purple team win both games. Tbh, I think map imbalances are too much in terms of the maps, and less so the order of who picks first. Also introducing an imbalance to counteract a non related mechanic, is a pretty inelegant solution. Also you'd have to prove first pick/ban isfavored.
How do you address the map imbalance issue then?
The draft imbalance being used to counter-balance map advantage was only a solution because the map imbalance issue was basically intractable without removing a core gameplay element (Roshan) from the game. The same issue exists in LoL where the map imbalance fundamentally exists because of Baron and Dragon.
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Just had a 8 wins streak, feels good man. Now I just hope for another 100 elo gain tomorrow.
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On January 14 2013 18:38 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 18:36 wei2coolman wrote:On January 14 2013 18:21 TheYango wrote:On January 14 2013 18:12 JALbert wrote:
I think that the number is incredibly suspect when teams are seeded and the higher seeded team get blue twice.
It's not the only statistic supporting it though. Consider the 11 Bo2s that went 1-1 in OGN groupstage. 8 of them blue team won both games, and in only 3 of them did purple team win both games. Tbh, I think map imbalances are too much in terms of the maps, and less so the order of who picks first. Also introducing an imbalance to counteract a non related mechanic, is a pretty inelegant solution. Also you'd have to prove first pick/ban isfavored. How do you address the map imbalance issue then? The draft imbalance being used to counter-balance map advantage was only a solution because the map imbalance issue was basically intractable without removing a core gameplay element (Roshan) from the game. The same issue exists in LoL where the map imbalance fundamentally exists because of Baron and Dragon.
I don't have a specific answer, but I'm sure there's a way to do it. Though I feel a lot of the issues about map imbalances seem to stem from how lanes are played out and how gank paths work. (though I do agree lane setups are instigated cuz of dragon placement.)
But we're also seeing teams give up the dragon advantage by tossing adc + support into toplane, to get early tower, or to have a farmed adc into midgame.
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United States47024 Posts
The Dragon advantage for blue side is only half the story. The terrain disadvantage of purple's Baron approaches compared to blue side's is arguably just as large an issue. Notice how Purple team very rarely approaches Baron through the top tribrush and almost always goes through the wraith ramp? It's because that tribrush is a fucking death trap and impossible to approach through without being forced into taking a lot of damage from a bad position. By comparison, both blue team approaches are usable entrances to the Baron area. Purple's Baron approaches are also much further apart, meaning that purple team more or less must 5-man through the same enclosed area or risk being cut off, while blue's 2 Baron approaches are closer and much more able to support one another (admittedly, the change to the wraith ramp in S3 makes Purple side's movement through there much less dangerous).
Purple has a similar terrain advantage around dragon, but it's offset by blue's more favorable duo bot. Even if you lane-swap, having duo bot means you inherently have more vision/creep/jungle control around Dragon area because of how the lane pressure prevents your bot laner from being able to provide vision control of the Dragon area.
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On January 14 2013 18:45 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 18:38 TheYango wrote:On January 14 2013 18:36 wei2coolman wrote:On January 14 2013 18:21 TheYango wrote:On January 14 2013 18:12 JALbert wrote:
I think that the number is incredibly suspect when teams are seeded and the higher seeded team get blue twice.
It's not the only statistic supporting it though. Consider the 11 Bo2s that went 1-1 in OGN groupstage. 8 of them blue team won both games, and in only 3 of them did purple team win both games. Tbh, I think map imbalances are too much in terms of the maps, and less so the order of who picks first. Also introducing an imbalance to counteract a non related mechanic, is a pretty inelegant solution. Also you'd have to prove first pick/ban isfavored. How do you address the map imbalance issue then? The draft imbalance being used to counter-balance map advantage was only a solution because the map imbalance issue was basically intractable without removing a core gameplay element (Roshan) from the game. The same issue exists in LoL where the map imbalance fundamentally exists because of Baron and Dragon. I don't have a specific answer, but I'm sure there's a way to do it. Though I feel a lot of the issues about map imbalances seem to stem from how lanes are played out and how gank paths work. (though I do agree lane setups are instigated cuz of dragon placement.) But we're also seeing teams give up the dragon advantage by tossing adc + support into toplane, to get early tower, or to have a farmed adc into midgame.
AD/Support midlane doesn't necessarily surrender the dragon advantage, however sending them top lane does. And purple has bigger incentive to send them top - golems, safer lane, ability to counteract red buff counterjungle and threaten blue (the opposite is fairly improbable to happen considering how blue is usually taken first and red is far more dangerous to invade).
I don't consider LCS America conclusive proof for any blue side advantage, though. Only day 1 had a significant blue/purple imbalance, and this might have come down to seeding and the Bo1 system. OGN carries more weight. I'm wondering, though, whether the decisive factor was map layout, having first pick, or both.
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what time is the 3rd game for WE vs Royal? and link to stream?
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United States47024 Posts
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On January 14 2013 19:12 justiceknight wrote:
what time is the 3rd game for WE vs Royal? and link to stream?
http://twitch.tv/gamefycn was yesterday's stream. Seems to have come online just now, too, with a timetable
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Tried tank Kat for the first time, went 8/4/14. Was very cool, got out of A LOT of scenarios I should not have. Will do it again for sure! Voyboy op!
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On January 14 2013 18:52 TheYango wrote:
The Dragon advantage for blue side is only half the story. The terrain disadvantage of purple's Baron approaches compared to blue side's is arguably just as large an issue. Notice how Purple team very rarely approaches Baron through the top tribrush and almost always goes through the wraith ramp? It's because that tribrush is a fucking death trap and impossible to approach through without being forced into taking a lot of damage from a bad position. By comparison, both blue team approaches are usable entrances to the Baron area. Purple's Baron approaches are also much further apart, meaning that purple team more or less must 5-man through the same enclosed area or risk being cut off, while blue's 2 Baron approaches are closer and much more able to support one another (admittedly, the change to the wraith ramp in S3 makes Purple side's movement through there much less dangerous).
Purple has a similar terrain advantage around dragon, but it's offset by blue's more favorable duo bot. Even if you lane-swap, having duo bot means you inherently have more vision/creep/jungle control around Dragon area because of how the lane pressure prevents your bot laner from being able to provide vision control of the Dragon area.
TBH as purple side there is only the south as the "safer" entrance to baron. Going the north entrance to river is a nasty chokepoint that's easily warded and can very easily split your team if you get chased(3 different non-converging retreat paths). The southern entrance is better because it gives you room to kite, and you can ward one of 3 bushes without facechecking. That still means though that if both sides have oracles, and river isn't warded to start off, blue side can set up far more easily(no facechecks required to build a warded path to baron). For Purple side the L bush and the island bush both leave you vulnerable to getting engaged on without long range poke.
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Maybe the solution would be that one team gets to decide on whether they want to first pick/ban and the other team can decide which side they play on. In longer series the pick/map choice switches. The team that decided map decides first pick/ban and vice versa. The players can decide what offers the bigger advantage.
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Question: attack speed marks. Yay or nay?
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On January 14 2013 20:21 CutieBK wrote:
Question: attack speed marks. Yay or nay?
good for junglers + irelia/kayle
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Not on ad but certain junglers like amumu naut sure. Also kayle is good with as marks too
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if your target isn't running away from you they get a lot better. thus their popularity on junglers, even ones that don't have any particular synergy with attack speed
they're pretty underrated for last hitting too, like last hitting with early trist or early corki can be really obnoxious, you can throw in some AS reds to help with that and it works fine
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EPT
