EPTI think I will delete that
It was uncalled for.
[Patch 1.0.0.153: Preseason Balance Update 1] GD - Page 401
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ItsFunToLose
United States776 Posts
I think I will delete that It was uncalled for. | ||
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bobbob
United States368 Posts
How did I come up with this? Naturally, I needed some amount of % armor pen, as well as flat armor pen to test out how penetrations have changed effective armor values. I assumed that people used 21 in the offense tree (For S2, it gave 6 flat armor pen, 10% armor pen, S3 is 6 armor pen, 8% armor pen) I also assumed armor pen marks (12 armor pen). For the sake of having the same build, I made the assumption that Black Cleaver is a 30% armor penetration item, and it existed in Season 2. The reason I have it as a 30% armor penetration item (as opposed to a 30% armor reduction item) is that armor penetration already scales multiplicatively, and since % armor reduction applies right before % armor penetration in Season 3, 30% armor penetration and 30% armor reduction are effectively the same thing when in a single target situation. So, running the numbers gives us 28 flat armor penetration for both seasons (10 from cleaver, 6 from masteries, 12 from runes) For Season 2, 90% * 70% = 63%, so 100% - 63% = 37% armor penetration For Season 3, 92% * 70% = 64.4%, so 100% - 64.4% = 35.6% armor penetration Take these stats against a target with 100 armor. In season 3, we applied flat armor penetration before % armor pen, so effective armor would be (100 - 28) * 0.63 = 45.36 effective armor. In Season 3, we apply % armor reduction before flat armor reduction. 100 * 0.644 - 28 = 36.4 effective armor. Before you draw any conclusions about these results, that Season 3 has clearly reduced the effective armor even at 100 armor, and going for more armor is pointless, run the numbers for a target with 300 armor. For Season 2, we get (300 - 28) * 0.63 = 171.36 effective armor For Season 3, we get 300 * 0.644 - 28 = 165.2 effective armor Look at the difference in armors between S2 and S3, and 100 and 300. At 100 armor, between S2 and S3, there is a difference of 8.96 effective armor. At 300, surprisingly, the gap has actually SHRUNK to 6.16 armor. The only difference was the change from 10% to 8% armor penetration in the Mastery Tree. What about with a higher flat armor penetration? Suppose we used armor pen Quints as well. Then we would have 19 armor pen from runes, for a total of 35 flat armor pen instead. (100 - 35) * 0.63 = 40.95 100 * 0.644 - 35 = 29.4 (300 - 35) * 0.63 = 166.95 300 * 0.644 - 35 = 158.2 Again, the gap between seasons actually shrinks with increasing armor penetration. The conclusion I draw from this is that the difference between seasons has caused an overall decrease in armor, but if you are blaming penetration changes for you not being able to stack armor anymore, look elsewhere. Almost every champion's skills is a % armor reduction skill, I can only think of Darius as a champion with % armor penetration built in (I might be missing one, but it affects so little). The 2% change in masteries, as well as the 5% change in Last Whisper has been enough (I checked this too, Last Whisper is actually less effective vs high armors than it was in S2) to keep armor values roughly the same as armor goes up. I will now blame Season 3's shitty defensive situation on increased costs of resistances, as well as decreased costs of AD. | ||
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agtemd
Canada362 Posts
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Craton
United States17297 Posts
On January 12 2013 17:37 bobbob wrote: I will now blame Season 3's shitty defensive situation on increased costs of resistances, as well as decreased costs of AD. Don't forget about a number of champions who simply have too high base damage and/or scaling. | ||
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Eiii
United States2566 Posts
On January 12 2013 17:37 agtemd wrote: Got the baron icon! :D fk you it's the only thing i really wanted for christmas | ||
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
On January 12 2013 17:51 Craton wrote: Don't forget about a number of champions who simply have too high base damage and/or scaling. Hey Craton why don't you talk to me in solo queue games? I feel like we'd have interesting conversations if you gave me a chance. | ||
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bobbob
United States368 Posts
On January 12 2013 17:51 Craton wrote: Don't forget about a number of champions who simply have too high base damage and/or scaling. Also the fact that BC is like an item that provides % magic pen, flat magic pen, CDR, AP, and health, except for AD casters. Seriously, that item basically gives you every stat you actually want, instead of having to build multiple items for it. I wrote a thread on the LoL forums about design stuff that I think Riot has been missing out on, and problems with S3, but I got more upvotes than replies, so it just got buried... | ||
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Craton
United States17297 Posts
On January 12 2013 18:01 HazMat wrote: Hey Craton why don't you talk to me in solo queue games? I feel like we'd have interesting conversations if you gave me a chance. Quiet is better. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
But of course, if you pile on enough armour, even though you only receive a reduced % of the source's armour, you still get some, and after awhile you're still tanky. Also, flat penetration falls off less harshly is s3... but it still falls off as armour total increases. Also, you have to use relatives for the reduction: with your calculations, the numbers for 100 armour mean that in s3 you do 8.9% more damage than in s2, which is far from negligible. Anyway, since I calculated that BT > BC for burst, and LW > BC for dps (cost-effectively it is, slot-effectively well you need that 10 AD, 10 ArPen and 10% CDR to outperform the 5% less reduction—even more for the 4 first sources of damage), it was obvious to me than items weren't the reason to blame for s3's squishiness, at least not completed items (reduced cost on BFS can be brutal if you can abuse timings, but it's harder to quantify). Paying 400 more for FH, 200 more for Aegis, 150 more for tabi (%-wise those are over 10% price increases, hefty), while losing 3 to 5 armour on components and 5 to 9 armour on items (10% to 17% armour reduction, exception on randuin's, only 6%, and tabi, no reduction but you lose the passive for minions and monsters) rapidly adds up. (Also champions who suddenly get played because people never thought they were viable, yeah. They stopped with Talon because Kha'Zix and Zed have higher ratios and better—read badly designed—kits, but he's as viable as them mid and he was in s2 too, from an item/masteries/laning standpoint.) On January 12 2013 18:01 bobbob wrote: Also the fact that BC is like an item that provides % magic pen, flat magic pen, CDR, AP, and health, except for AD casters. Seriously, that item basically gives you every stat you actually want, instead of having to build multiple items for it. Its cost and efficiency actually mean that when it would be better individually than previously existing items, you're in situations where you'll have several items anyway. Basically, unless you're behind or already have other stuff covered (most notably BT), BC's never the best buy. Or your job is just to apply stacks for your team to follow, and in this case you care way less about damage and flat ArPen anyway because you "sacrifice" your own scaling for your teammates' benefit in most cases, but this is already long and it's not like I include new stuff when I treat this subject. (And AP casters have more readily available flat penetration while their targets have weaker or non-existant scaling on resistance compared to armour. On the other hand, you have better ratios considering AD and AP prices.) | ||
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
You timed dragon once so I know your keyboard is working. PLZ | ||
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NEOtheONE
United States2233 Posts
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LaNague
Germany9118 Posts
On January 12 2013 16:45 SpaceToaster wrote: So... I got Santa Baron, any one ever figure out the criterea? well, i didnt get it and i never got a warning ever. So it cant be about being nice. | ||
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NEOtheONE
United States2233 Posts
On January 12 2013 18:08 LaNague wrote: well, i didnt get it and i never got a warning ever. So it cant be about being nice. I also have never gotten a warning and I got it so, I refute your counter example. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
Zed's main problem is mid-lategame he's basically an ult-reliant assassin that probably does too much unstoppable single target damage. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On January 12 2013 17:37 agtemd wrote: Got the baron icon! :D Now join the baron club!  | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Inschato
Canada1349 Posts
On January 12 2013 08:40 BlackPaladin wrote: Udyr isn't that bad in aram. He's just boring as fuck to me. As someone who has probably played more Udyr in ARAM than anyone else in the game (for whatever reason I get him way more than I should) I mostly concur with this statement. However, if the stars happen to align and the enemy team doesn't have the proper Udyr counters (which is pretty rare) then he can be a ton of fun. In my last game with him I built a bunch of movespeed items (Trinity Force, Zephyr, and might have had something like Randuin's) and just charged like an unstoppable killing machine. Whew, finally caught up in GD. Time to go to sleep and fall behind again. | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On January 12 2013 12:06 silencefc wrote: Being very general , with a lot of exceptions: Bruiser Meta > AoE Meta > Assassin Meta > Hypercarry Meta > Bruiser Meta? Bruiser Meta > Assassin Meta? AoE Meta > Hyper Carry Meta? I miss the Meta Golem: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6yGPcDpe-Gk/TuYu1hWMetI/AAAAAAAAAQ0/4bbkvRJLHmU/s1600/metagolem.jpg) .Had a gunblade instead of Mallet iirc. back when people got gunblade all the time | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
sigh why don't more people play ADAM | ||
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Eiii
United States2566 Posts
YES edit: all my friends have baron too so now it sucks | ||
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