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On January 02 2013 05:01 TheYango wrote:
TBH even if you plan on starting with 11 every game in the long run, I think trying to optimize the number of pots you need is a good exercise in learning the nature of various lane matchups. Lose a few games, gain a better understanding of a few lane matchups.
Half the reason people go mass pots is because the enemy is 80% likely to go mass pots and if you don't have pots to counter that then you automatically lose the lane because of the sustain. You can't predict what the opponents items are going to be otherwise everyone would counter every item choice. Thats why people choose the safe route and play it from there.
On January 02 2013 05:03 Phrost wrote:
So is it a good idea to start a flask on mana using champions (eg ryze) or still go for max pots?
Ryze is my most played champion and favorite mid by far. Flask, charm and 2hp pots is my start. Farm enough for at least tears before going back (520g), pref tears and couple wards (665g) or boots if you don't want to get the wards (870g)
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Problem with that Yango is that at most you are going to be in a range of how many you would need due to the difference in skill between 2 players. Even at top level 1 person's Irelia is going to be different from the next, which you really have no way of knowing prior to getting into lane. I have had games where I've had the same matchup between heroes and used 1 pot and the next game against the same hero I've had to use all of them because the circumstances of the game are different. Id rather just have the pots and be able to take account of any sort of gank, hyperagressive play by the opponent, or just simple misplay and still win, rather than just straight lose the game because I didnt have enough pots.
Additionally, even if you dont use all your pots because you are forced to by your opponent, having additional regen allows you to force fights with the opponent that would normally be bad for you, but because you have extra regen, you get to act as a bully and not really care.
Plus, my general playstyle is to get a couple of pots every time I go to base anyway (because if you have a slot you should ALWAYS have a pot), so if I dont use as many as I thought I just save money later.
So ya, I dont see any downside to maxing out on pots.
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On January 02 2013 05:08 Two_DoWn wrote:
So ya, I dont see any downside to maxing out on pots.
If you go back to base with 5 pots unused, you would normally only buy 2-3 on that back and thus you'd have extra gold sitting in "future pots"
But even at a professional level, lanes aren't decided by a 100g optimization: players still make bad plays and incorrect decisions which usually is the biggest cost.
There are a lot more things to worry about in improving play for most everyone else than optimizing the number of pots you should be buying
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I wonder if bribing people with RP Gift cards will get stream viewers :O
Also Jesus, when did Destiny get to 1800 elo.
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It's a cost benefit analysis. One made more complex by the psychological effect of what players will do when they see their opponent's openers. I guess the best way to determine the effectiveness is to try it out.
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On January 02 2013 05:13 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 05:08 Two_DoWn wrote:
So ya, I dont see any downside to maxing out on pots. If you go back to base with 5 pots unused, you would normally only buy 2-3 on that back and thus you'd have extra gold sitting in "future pots" But even at a professional level, lanes aren't decided by a 100g optimization: players still make bad plays and incorrect decisions which usually is the biggest cost. There are a lot more things to worry about in improving play for most everyone else than optimizing the number of pots you should be buying
The thing is if I have 5 and I only think I need 2-3, that is about 400 extra health I have to go around and be aggressive.
Sure, if you have 5 pots and you dont DO anything with them, then that is a waste of gold. But if you have 5 pots, force trades and abuse the fact you have regen and the other person doesnt have as much, then it isnt a waste.
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i despise going back to base with like 8 unused pots and having those sit around for the rest of the game without really being used because flask fulfills the burst hpregen that i used to use hp pots for in s2.
usually if someone is bullying their pot advantage hard enough such that they can go through an enemy's flask + pot or two opening, they are overextending like shit. a jungler can easily take advantage of this.
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On January 02 2013 04:58 BlackMagister wrote:
Man I hate Zyra support. She is like a second blitzcrank T_T How to deal with her as support or ADC? The best way I can think of is just not pick short ranged AD carries and maybe go Caitlyn to poke her down.
You can run like Leona + Graves/Corki/Ezreal against Zyra support and at like level 3-4 try to burst down a target. You lose levels 1-2 though and if you don't kill your target or get them low Zyra can sometimes turn it around.
Caitlyn+Nunu works just because Caitlyn is so safe and you'll outscale np. For me the most annoying part of Zyra isn't even lane phase as you can dodge her snare fairly easy especially if you play someone with a dash/leap/blink. It's during mid and late game when she uses that giant ult.
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Or you can just save all your money for your Trinity Force you will be needing to carry your team
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On January 02 2013 00:49 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 00:22 WhiteDog wrote:
EG never accomplished anything in SC2 aside from buying competitive players and watching them win. What could they do for TSM or CLG ? Makes random video for them ? Give them free Monster drink ?
EG is not a training house, it doesn't help people grow, it help people already grown up to get known and have the structure behind them to fly out wherever they want until they are washed up.
TL is a good structure where player can grow. Only TLO ever actually improved and grew, and even then, he wasn't even in their teamhouse when the majority of that happened. So dunno if you can attribute that to TL, I'd more attribute it to himself. Other than that, nobody ever got significantly better while on TL. Tru fax You are just blinded by fanboyism. You want to hate on EG, which is totally okay, cause they deserve it, but to say TL is better in that regard is ignorant. Don't get me wrong, I love TL as much as the next guy, but at least be real about it.
Sheth, TLO, Jinro, Huk, all grew from TL. Hero was an unknown when he was signed by TL and Taeja became the man after signing with TL not before. It's not fanboyism at all, just seeing fact.
Also I finally got back to 1500 elo after slumping down to 1100 !
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had the pleasure of playing dual platinum lanes in normals yesterday.
geez.
I feel like I learned that cs is less about technically last hitting and more about denying through positioning and harassing.
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On January 02 2013 05:16 Navi wrote:
i despise going back to base with like 8 unused pots and having those sit around for the rest of the game without really being used because flask fulfills the burst hpregen that i used to use hp pots for in s2.
usually if someone is bullying their pot advantage hard enough such that they can go through an enemy's flask + pot or two opening, they are overextending like shit. a jungler can easily take advantage of this.
unless every lane opens mass pots or mass pots + ward
jungler can't gank every lane at the same time
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Taeja certainly was good and well-known before TL signed him. Wasn't Hero just coming out of a big tournament success too?
On January 02 2013 04:03 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 02:57 NEOtheONE wrote:
Have you seen the guy that only streams Akali ranked? He won at least 9 in a row as Akali. He starts 2 wards and 9 potions. He will definitely be able to help you out a bit with Akali play. And I have to agree not to assume anything about counters. Even at pro level some players are just so good with their champions that even the supposed counters do not counter them. Honestly, I have found that the only thing that counters my best champion is getting babysat by the enemy jungler I play the same: 1 ward and many potions 99% of the time. No reason to get boots in S3.
Lost fights as Swain vs Annie because
- I'm bad (and he was 1800 Elo so better fundamentals than me, even drunk)
- Every time we traded, I would run at him with his stun unavailable while he gets a cs, QE him, he'd respond with QW, and if I ever tried to auto him some to aggravate the thing, he'd auto me back then catch back up for a second Q, winning him the trade. Despite my flask, 4 hp, 1 mana, 1 ward opening against his boots+3 I lost the lane (the kill at 6 was arguably due to jungler and top coming rather than him straight up 100-0ing me).
I certainly need to work on my positioning, dancing/mindgames and stuff at mid, but I noted that against longer ranged champs a boots+3 start could make it pretty awkward for me to trade hard enough to burn through their sustain because I wouldn't be able to get in range and punish cs every time (mainly Viktor and Swain currently, 625 range for the latter and you mainly rely on the 600 range Q for the former in the first levels). The problem is when they back so that they get sorcs, I can skip boots for now and have even more trouble on top of taking more damage, or "waste" 350 just to keep around the same absolute MS gap (a bit less when I run MS quints) while their 15 MPen for 750 are more cost-effective than anything you could buy with the remaining 400.
Uh... I'm bad at writing stuff, so to make it clear I'll say again than I don't think boots+3 > flask/full pot start, but I feel that depending on match-up (especially when range and auto harass is involved) there can be a lot of pressure on you to really punish the boots start and convert that into a kill or a cs lead.
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On January 02 2013 05:16 Navi wrote:
i despise going back to base with like 8 unused pots and having those sit around for the rest of the game without really being used because flask fulfills the burst hpregen that i used to use hp pots for in s2.
usually if someone is bullying their pot advantage hard enough such that they can go through an enemy's flask + pot or two opening, they are overextending like shit. a jungler can easily take advantage of this.
Ya, I agree it sucks when that happens. The problem I have is that I never know when I may need all 11 or whatever pots to win the lane, or when I may only need 3.
I just think that since early laning is so important, Id rather have the security of knowing that I wont lose because I skimped on regen that I easily could have had over the much riskier alternative.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 02 2013 05:46 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ya, I agree it sucks when that happens. The problem I have is that I never know when I may need all 11 or whatever pots to win the lane, or when I may only need 3.
That's the thing though, you should to a reasonable level of reliability.
Obviously you can't be exact, but even with reasonable room for error, you should be able to distinguish between a matchup that needs 3 potions and one that needs 11.
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I mean lets be real here no lane needs 11 potions unless you are getting the shit camped out of you, you should never go into a lane thinking dayum I need 11 potions because then you just got amazingly outplayed. I can see running it against like shaco jungle or mao and maybe xin or jarvan or something but thats about it
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Baa?21244 Posts
you can always use your 8 other potions the rest of the game xD
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creep aggro is fucking huge in s3 with no minion dmg redux masteries. the biggest impact is obviously in toplane. if you are forcing trades for the sake of forcing trades, even when you are taking more creep aggro, (which should be the only situation in which you are able to do so if your opponent is competent and you have the pot start advantage, in which case they will know to avoid confrontation if possible) you are essentially going in on a gambit. the lane in which this matters the most is definitely top, and junglers if they see this opening diversity should focus there.
in middle lane it is much easier to deal with unwanted aggression unless the lane matchup hugely skewed, due to the dynamics of middle lane (waveclear on the "safest" mids if you are picking before your opponent, and a relatively short lane so u can avoid being zoned without the opponent being really out of position). so the jungler often does not have to pay as much attention to the openings in that lane.
bottom lane i have not personally experimented with large pot openings, but i imagine that due to the burst nature of that lane that the inferior damage that you have with pots / flask opening that there is a clear timing window to abuse the pot stackers before their superior sustain can kick in, similar to laning vs a soraka.
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On January 02 2013 05:53 VayneAuthority wrote:
I mean lets be real here no lane needs 11 potions unless you are getting the shit camped out of you, you should never go into a lane thinking dayum I need 11 potions because then you just got amazingly outplayed. I can see running it against like shaco jungle or mao and maybe xin or jarvan or something but thats about it
Mordekaizer, never leave the lane, always on full HP. Then proceed to go 20-1 as you R-laugh at the enemy
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On January 02 2013 05:57 Vlanitak wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 05:53 VayneAuthority wrote:
I mean lets be real here no lane needs 11 potions unless you are getting the shit camped out of you, you should never go into a lane thinking dayum I need 11 potions because then you just got amazingly outplayed. I can see running it against like shaco jungle or mao and maybe xin or jarvan or something but thats about it Mordekaizer, never leave the lane, always on full HP. Then proceed to go 20-1 as you R-laugh at the enemy
ever tried 2 rejuv beads and rest potions? I like that a lot better for morde. Builds into Locket which adds some nice utility on him or you can get warmogs which is good on him as well.
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EPT
