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United States47024 Posts
There's no rule that says you have to spend all your starting gold.
Strictly speaking, the "best" number of pots to start is such that you use up your last pot before you'd go back (because any more than that is a waste since you'd have the option to buy more when you go back anyway). This is either when your opponent goes back (because if your opponent goes back, you're going to shove the lane and back yourself), or when your wards run out.
Obviously this takes some sense about how aggressively you'll use pots in a given matchup, but the point is that optimal play in an all-consumables start would not be to blindly spend all your starting gold on pots, but to be able to know roughly the number of pots you need.
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What If I buy 11 pots and the other guy just gives up trading, so I don't get to use all of them but it still wins me the lane.
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On January 02 2013 04:30 TheYango wrote:
There's no rule that says you have to spend all your starting gold.
Strictly speaking, the "best" number of pots to start is such that you use up your last pot before you'd go back (because any more than that is a waste since you'd have the option to buy more when you go back anyway). This is either when your opponent goes back (because if your opponent goes back, you're going to shove the lane and back yourself), or when your wards run out.
Obviously this takes some sense about how aggressively you'll use pots in a given matchup, but the point is that optimal play in an all-consumables start would not be to blindly spend all your starting gold on pots, but to be able to know roughly the number of pots you need.
Very true. But the opposite could also be said. You buy as many pots/consumables possible in order to stay in lane as long as possible. You can't account for unforeseen circumstances, jungler camping you, you making mistakes in play and taking more dmg than needed, simply being outplayed in lane etc. While it's true the least amount of pots you buy the better, sometimes you can't take the chance and just max out so you're covered.
On January 02 2013 04:37 OutlaW- wrote:
What If I buy 11 pots and the other guy just gives up trading, so I don't get to use all of them but it still wins me the lane.
Then you essentially bought your lane for the price of 11pots. Hope you can do something with your huge advantage.
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On January 02 2013 04:37 OutlaW- wrote:
What If I buy 11 pots and the other guy just gives up trading, so I don't get to use all of them but it still wins me the lane.
Could've bought 10, and have the guy give up trading. save 35 gold.
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On January 02 2013 04:16 Djin)ftw( wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 03:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On January 02 2013 03:46 Djin)ftw( wrote:
why would u go 9 pots? doesnt make any sense, even if you dont need the mana regen the flask will be better after 9.64 usages, which means the third time you go back (assuming you used all 3 charges) its already paying off. This has been stated a lot but gold now is always worth more than gold later, so flask isn't as efficient as people think. If I told you I'd give you 100$ to win a solo queue game, and you had two options to give yourself an advantage: 1600 gold at 0:00 minutes, or 3200 gold at 10 minutes, you'd be a fool to not take the 1600 and buy yourself 3-4 dorans and a few wards and zone out your opponents from level 1. Flask is an investment and investments need to return their cost with interest. Something people were finally learning near the end of S2 with the GP10 meta. 9pots is only useful if you're going to use all 9 pots in the first laning phase eg: dyrus' morde mid vs lb. so you are saying that 9 pots that cost 9*35=315 gold are more useful/a better investment than a 225 gold flask which pays off after about 10 minutes into the game? Oo
So you're saying men can be made of straw?
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United States47024 Posts
On January 02 2013 04:37 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 04:30 TheYango wrote:
There's no rule that says you have to spend all your starting gold.
Strictly speaking, the "best" number of pots to start is such that you use up your last pot before you'd go back (because any more than that is a waste since you'd have the option to buy more when you go back anyway). This is either when your opponent goes back (because if your opponent goes back, you're going to shove the lane and back yourself), or when your wards run out.
Obviously this takes some sense about how aggressively you'll use pots in a given matchup, but the point is that optimal play in an all-consumables start would not be to blindly spend all your starting gold on pots, but to be able to know roughly the number of pots you need. Very true. But the opposite could also be said. You buy as many pots/consumables possible in order to stay in lane as long as possible. You can't account for unforeseen circumstances, jungler camping you, you making mistakes in play and taking more dmg than needed, simply being outplayed in lane etc. While it's true the least amount of pots you buy the better, sometimes you can't take the chance and just max out so you're covered.
If their jungler camps you, that's the time when pots are most useless, lol.
In the scenarios of "making mistakes, getting outplayed", then you're using the extra pots as a crutch to support bad play. I would rather correct the bad play than use the extra pots as a crutch.
On January 02 2013 04:37 OutlaW- wrote:
What If I buy 11 pots and the other guy just gives up trading, so I don't get to use all of them but it still wins me the lane.
That's only going to happen in the short term when people aren't accustomed to dealing with mass pot starts and totally misplay against them.
Once all-consumables becomes FotM, one of two things are going to happen (possibly both):
1) People will learn better how to lane against mass pot starts, and you will have to optimize your play rather than just expecting people to give up
2) Riot will nerf pots
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It's necessarily a crutch, more like buying insurance in case you crash you champion.
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On January 02 2013 04:40 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 04:37 Zooper31 wrote:On January 02 2013 04:30 TheYango wrote:
There's no rule that says you have to spend all your starting gold.
Strictly speaking, the "best" number of pots to start is such that you use up your last pot before you'd go back (because any more than that is a waste since you'd have the option to buy more when you go back anyway). This is either when your opponent goes back (because if your opponent goes back, you're going to shove the lane and back yourself), or when your wards run out.
Obviously this takes some sense about how aggressively you'll use pots in a given matchup, but the point is that optimal play in an all-consumables start would not be to blindly spend all your starting gold on pots, but to be able to know roughly the number of pots you need. Very true. But the opposite could also be said. You buy as many pots/consumables possible in order to stay in lane as long as possible. You can't account for unforeseen circumstances, jungler camping you, you making mistakes in play and taking more dmg than needed, simply being outplayed in lane etc. While it's true the least amount of pots you buy the better, sometimes you can't take the chance and just max out so you're covered. If their jungler camps you, that's the time when pots are most useless, lol. In the scenarios of "making mistakes, getting outplayed", then you're using the extra pots as a crutch to support bad play. I would rather correct the bad play than use the extra pots as a crutch.
Why not do both? Correct bad play while also having a backup. Not everyone plays perfect, not even the best player in the world.
As someone said above, it's like insurance. You buy it for the bad times, when it's need it the most, the risk is too big otherwise.
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Meh, riot just needs to make tier 1 boots cheaper, thus justifying people to get it at level 1, while still being able to combat mass pot strategies.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 02 2013 04:43 Zooper31 wrote:
Why not do both? Correct bad play while also having a backup. Not everyone plays perfect, not even the best player in the world.
Because losing games isn't that big of a deal?
You're more likely to learn from your mistakes if you actually lose games/get punished for them.
You should be trying to guess what the optimal number of potions to start with for a given matchup is. You will guess wrong. If you always go with 11, you will use them more freely than if you really tried to optimize the best number you need. If you guess too few and lose because of it, you shrug off the loss and try again next game.
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On January 02 2013 04:45 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 04:43 Zooper31 wrote:
Why not do both? Correct bad play while also having a backup. Not everyone plays perfect, not even the best player in the world. Because losing games isn't that big of a deal? You're more likely to learn from your mistakes if you actually lose games/get punished for them.
I'd rather not lose all my games on purpose because I didn't go mass pots I'm sorry. I want to win my games and I want to learn while doing it, nothing says I can't do both.
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You'd buy more pots on the next b anyways, no reason to not go balls deep from the start.
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United States37500 Posts
I'd just max pots every time. Benefits outweighs the costs in most situations.
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In S2 I would end up probably buying 8-12 pots for mid and top anyways, except on extremely high sustain champions, so if you don't use them all on your first back then it would just save you buying pots later?
You could take a present value approach and say to maximize you could maybe get some item you were 70g short on if you didn't overspent on early pots, but I like to think of buying the pots as paying a premium for lane safety because there is inherently some unpredictability. The extra HP might like you get 1-2 CS you would've otherwise had to give up, making it kind of break even, but more importantly, if your jungler comes and does something dumb, or you get pushed in and their jungler has perfect timing to make it into your bush, you are more robust to these contingencies in lane
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United States47024 Posts
I just don't think it's unrealistic for people to find out how many pots is the most realistic number for a given matchup, and then play around that fact. Some matchups will necessitate the full 11 pots, but some probably won't even use half that before the first back, even if you're accounting for extras.
If you're regularly using more pots than a given matchup needs, that's a totally separate issue that you need to work on. Obviously a couple for "safety" should be acceptable, but again, there will be matchups that won't use 11 even with a liberal amount of extra pots.
EDIT: Also, 9 pots 2 wards is way more sensible than 11 pots 1 ward. The ward runs out way before you use 11 pots.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
I can definitely see the use of trying to optimize pots, but there are so many factors that can vary in game that can swing that number a bit, which makes it almost insanely risky to guess how many you're going to need. Seems only logical that you overguess and buy max pots since you're going to need pots anyways later on.
What happens if you unexpectedly get ganked? What if you need to help your jungler out in his jungle or enemy jungle? What if you accidentally eat more harass than you expected?
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Man I hate Zyra support. She is like a second blitzcrank T_T How to deal with her as support or ADC? The best way I can think of is just not pick short ranged AD carries and maybe go Caitlyn to poke her down.
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On January 02 2013 04:58 Roffles wrote:
I can definitely see the use of trying to optimize pots, but there are so many factors that can vary in game that can swing that number a bit, which makes it almost insanely risky to guess how many you're going to need. Seems only logical that you overguess and buy max pots since you're going to need pots anyways later on.
What happens if you unexpectedly get ganked? What if you need to help your jungler out in his jungle or enemy jungle? What if you accidentally eat more harass than you expected?
He's saying tough luck. Same thing I asked him.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 02 2013 05:00 Zooper31 wrote:
He's saying tough luck. Same thing I asked him.
You didn't read any of my subsequent posts. Like I said, some "safety" is acceptable.
But if a matchup only is going to call for 4-5 pots before one player backs (e.g. one side needs an HP/armor item because the other player has the ability to go all-in at level 6), even if you've got 2-3 extras for safety, that's still an extra 3-4 pots you blatantly don't need.
TBH even if you plan on starting with 11 every game in the long run, I think trying to optimize the number of pots you need is a good exercise in learning the nature of various lane matchups. Lose a few games, gain a better understanding of a few lane matchups.
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So is it a good idea to start a flask on mana using champions (eg ryze) or still go for max pots?
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EPT
