|
United States47024 Posts
On December 07 2012 04:12 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 03:55 TheYango wrote:On December 07 2012 03:14 komokun wrote:
Thing is, you guys are ignoring the time factor so comparing net cost I feel is not really relevant as investing 700 up-front is a decision that have an opportunity cost. It would be more accurate to consider cost as in finance. Buying a 700 item first/then sell it late late game and paying 75-150 each times you go back is a much different problem then "10x75>700"
I feel solo lanes don't have that much gold to spare early if they want to keep pressure in lane, and wouldn't bother with it when the lanephase is over and you have jungler/support spamming 3 wards each on top of pinks/additionnal wards that those mid/top/adc are still going to buy when they can afford them.
The cost of buying 15-20 individual wards throughout the course of the game is not necessarily more costly than investing a large amount of you initial resources into an item giving you (a lot of) "free" wards.
Think of it like renting an office when starting up a business. It isn't worth it to spend all your available cash into buying the office when you can just rent it and use the cash more efficiently for developing your blooming business instead of the ownership of walls and wires. Ok NOW this pisses me off because I have to beleaguer this point every damn time we get to this argument. I understand how investment/opportunity cost works, and it's insulting to me for you to imply otherwise. I've addressed this issue every time we discuss Sightstone, and you clearly haven't followed the discussion. There are 3 major reasons why the investment/opportunity cost analysis for other items (gp10) does not apply to Sightstone in similar fashion: 1) Sightstone is a 70% sell-back item, unlike the 50% of gp10 2) Sightstone generates gold value at almost twice the rate of a gp10 3) (most critically) Sightstone takes an item slot that essentially no other item could compete for--the slot that you typically reserve for holding wardsThis means that it is possible (and actually very likely) for you to have scenarios where you can buy Sightstone at a point in time where you could not practically speaking buy other items, and then have it pay off before you could buy other items, effectively making it a zero-opportunity-cost item. Consider the following scenario: you are playing an AP. You have DRing+Chain Vest+Sorcs+Guise+Abyssal. Your next item is going to be NLR--to be made into Hourglass. You base with 900 gold. You can't buy the NLR right now. Your two options are either buy 3 wards, or buy Sightstone. At this point, Sightstone is strictly the better play, so long as you'd place all 3 wards before you can afford NLR. If you place 3 wards, the net cost is 700-490=210 gold. The cost of 3 wards 225 gold. Even if you've just used 3 wards and then sell the Sightstone to buy NLR, Sightstone has made good on its investment before you could conceivably have bought anything else. What's more, the item doesn't punish you for using MORE than 3 wards. You can use wards far more aggressively than otherwise, and you are not punished for doing so because there's no additional cost for using more wards. In short you buy sightstone when the following conditions are met: - you are at base. - you don't have wards in your inventory - you finish/buy a major item. - you have only 1 slot left OR you don't have/want to spend more gold on small items (except wards ofc).
That only describes the situation where it's STRICTLY better than wards.
There are still situations where it's a good buy, but not strictly the best buy from a mathematical standpoint. I haven't addressed those situations because that's beyond the realm of theorycraft.
The point is that if you can discover a "strictly the best buy" scenario for an item on day 0 (BEFORE the item is even released), chances are the item is so powerful that once people fully explore the item's potential, it will be downright abusive when every scenario where it's the right buy is discovered.
|
Sightstone is not strictly better than 3 wards, because you can't place 3 sightstone wards at the same time. In fact if I knew I was going to put three wards (but not too much more than that) before my next big item, I would buy 3 wards, not a sightstone. I might even get 4 wards over a sightstone but that's probably around where the breakpoint is.
Of course, this is all assuming I can afford a sightstone in the first place. If I go back with 300g the sighstone isn't going to help me at all. If I go back with 1500 gold I'm probably not going to place 3 wards before I can afford a NLR.
Also, red elixir is the strictly best item to buy when you have 6 items and the other elixirs already active. That's also a very obvious 0-day strictly better scenario, doesn't automatically make red elixirs overpowered.
|
On December 07 2012 04:13 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 03:30 thenexusp wrote:
Sightstone may or may not be OP, but it's clear from previous experience that Riot will never get good data on anything unless it's absurdly OP on release. (See: Rengar, Irelia -- both champs were buffed after release because people thought they sucked) Splitpush tanky Rengar is hella retarded. Can sustain in the lane forever cause of W and is tanky as shit cuz its a huge self heal + armor/mr buff lolol. They should rename Captain Boots -> Splitpush boots, cuz thats really the best use ive found for them atm
Captains boots are the ones that give teammates moving toward you more move speed correct? Because I believe in order to get the speed boost players need to be in a certain range, like 1000 or something. Correct me if I am wrong. If I am right then they are useless for split pushing. However they are very useful on any tanks/bruisers that dive the enemy carries like Olaf.
Edit: I think I am talking about different boots. My mistake.
|
United States23745 Posts
On December 07 2012 04:21 Ghost-z wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 04:13 arb wrote:On December 07 2012 03:30 thenexusp wrote:
Sightstone may or may not be OP, but it's clear from previous experience that Riot will never get good data on anything unless it's absurdly OP on release. (See: Rengar, Irelia -- both champs were buffed after release because people thought they sucked) Splitpush tanky Rengar is hella retarded. Can sustain in the lane forever cause of W and is tanky as shit cuz its a huge self heal + armor/mr buff lolol. They should rename Captain Boots -> Splitpush boots, cuz thats really the best use ive found for them atm Captains boots are the ones that give teammates moving toward you more move speed correct? Because I believe in order to get the speed boost players need to be in a certain range, like 1000 or something. Correct me if I am wrong. If I am right then they are useless for split pushing. However they are very useful on any tanks/bruisers that dive the enemy carries like Olaf.
It also increases minion move speed by 20%
|
On December 07 2012 04:21 Ghost-z wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 04:13 arb wrote:On December 07 2012 03:30 thenexusp wrote:
Sightstone may or may not be OP, but it's clear from previous experience that Riot will never get good data on anything unless it's absurdly OP on release. (See: Rengar, Irelia -- both champs were buffed after release because people thought they sucked) Splitpush tanky Rengar is hella retarded. Can sustain in the lane forever cause of W and is tanky as shit cuz its a huge self heal + armor/mr buff lolol. They should rename Captain Boots -> Splitpush boots, cuz thats really the best use ive found for them atm Captains boots are the ones that give teammates moving toward you more move speed correct? Because I believe in order to get the speed boost players need to be in a certain range, like 1000 or something. Correct me if I am wrong. If I am right then they are useless for split pushing. However they are very useful on any tanks/bruisers that dive the enemy carries like Olaf.
They also speed up minions by 25%, which makes them real speedy.
|
United States47024 Posts
On December 07 2012 04:20 thenexusp wrote:
Of course, this is all assuming I can afford a sightstone in the first place. If I go back with 300g the sighstone isn't going to help me at all. If I go back with 1500 gold I'm probably not going to place 3 wards before I can afford a NLR.
You won't bluepill the instant you get 1600 gold, so yes, you probably will.
|
i haven't played a lot of SR games yet but i'm still finding it hard to see how early game sightstone puts you at a horrible disadvantage vs. 2 wards + equivalent gold cost item (doran's?) disadvantage yes, but i don't think that disadvantage is enough to make it horribly biased in favor of one hero.
|
Speaking of sightstone, anyone tried biscuit + utility ward opening and just b'd at 3min to get a signtstone? I did it on Soraka and it allowed me to invest heavily into midgame since I didn't have to worry about wards. Feel like it would work well with a really safe/defensive lane.
|
United States23745 Posts
On December 07 2012 04:28 Mondeezy wrote:
Speaking of sightstone, anyone tried biscuit + utility ward opening and just b'd at 3min to get a signtstone? I did it on Soraka and it allowed me to invest heavily into midgame since I didn't have to worry about wards. Feel like it would work well with a really safe/defensive lane.
The only problem is that by midgame if the laning phase is over you should be putting out more than two wards on the map at a time.
|
On December 07 2012 04:27 kainzero wrote:
i haven't played a lot of SR games yet but i'm still finding it hard to see how early game sightstone puts you at a horrible disadvantage vs. 2 wards + equivalent gold cost item (doran's?) disadvantage yes, but i don't think that disadvantage is enough to make it horribly biased in favor of one hero.
Not so much on supports but if you come back to top or mid with a sight stone vs Dorans and wards I hope you had a slight lead and like to play passive for the next few minutes.
|
New Singed is fun. Ran an unconventional 1-7-22 mastery set up, and I got the upgraded haunting guise, sorcerer's shoes. With those two items I was able to get a double kill on the top lane and jungler while farming behind the enemy tower at lvl 6. From there I got RoA, then reread the upgraded Guise and was like I need a rylai's to apply slow with the dot. Finished the build with a spirit visage and thornmail.
Here's the thing though. There's a lot of synergy with the support (shard, reverie) and an ap champ that doesn't mind getting in melee range with the luandry torment. The next game I was support, and threw the shard's active on our Singed and gave him a reverie, to just run in and flip, but think of the synergy on this combo on an Eve with the slow aura slapping guys with hate spikes, or Morde with his aoe shield, or Malphite (ult in, get the shard as they land, slow their attackspeed etc. Or even Fizz. Basically anybody who benefits from magic pen, and doesn't mind getting up close to their target. Now the slow from Shard only lasts 4 seconds, and the burn takes 3 seconds, so it may not be as good as I had initially thought, but what are your thoughts TL?
|
Nothing stops you from buying some wards alongside it as long as you have the slotss, the same way you can still buy pots alongside flask (but use the flask first pretty please).
|
On December 07 2012 04:30 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 04:28 Mondeezy wrote:
Speaking of sightstone, anyone tried biscuit + utility ward opening and just b'd at 3min to get a signtstone? I did it on Soraka and it allowed me to invest heavily into midgame since I didn't have to worry about wards. Feel like it would work well with a really safe/defensive lane. The only problem is that by midgame if the laning phase is over you should be putting out more than two wards on the map at a time.
Hmm. Well I've tried it twice, both times I went sightstone -> philo and possibly kage-> boots-> ruby sight -> situational. Only did it on Soraka, could shut down every Gank and allow ADC to farm. Abused pickpocket to the point where it was practically an extra gp10 item. Seemed to work well but was pretty boring tbh. I miss Dota-style supports 
Flask sona start seems super strong too
|
Someone posted this thing:
http://enigmablade.net/lol-item-changer/
A few pages back. Now, the author of that addon states that you can't be banned for using it. However, he is obviously not the most trustworthy source. So i want to ask the knowledgable people of this forum if this is indeed true, or false, or questionable.
|
Well you were laning Soraka. Go for Leona and just crush people.  Shard would be good on her for the active, too bad the stats don't work too well.
|
On December 07 2012 03:55 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 03:14 komokun wrote:
Thing is, you guys are ignoring the time factor so comparing net cost I feel is not really relevant as investing 700 up-front is a decision that have an opportunity cost. It would be more accurate to consider cost as in finance. Buying a 700 item first/then sell it late late game and paying 75-150 each times you go back is a much different problem then "10x75>700"
I feel solo lanes don't have that much gold to spare early if they want to keep pressure in lane, and wouldn't bother with it when the lanephase is over and you have jungler/support spamming 3 wards each on top of pinks/additionnal wards that those mid/top/adc are still going to buy when they can afford them.
The cost of buying 15-20 individual wards throughout the course of the game is not necessarily more costly than investing a large amount of you initial resources into an item giving you (a lot of) "free" wards.
Think of it like renting an office when starting up a business. It isn't worth it to spend all your available cash into buying the office when you can just rent it and use the cash more efficiently for developing your blooming business instead of the ownership of walls and wires. Ok NOW this pisses me off because I have to beleaguer this point every damn time we get to this argument. I understand how investment/opportunity cost works, and it's insulting to me for you to imply otherwise. I've addressed this issue every time we discuss Sightstone, and you clearly haven't followed the discussion. There are 3 major reasons why the investment/opportunity cost analysis for other items (gp10) does not apply to Sightstone in similar fashion: 1) Sightstone is a 70% sell-back item, unlike the 50% of gp10 2) Sightstone generates gold value at almost twice the rate of a gp10 3) (most critically) Sightstone takes an item slot that essentially no other item could compete for--the slot that you typically reserve for holding wardsThis means that it is possible (and actually very likely) for you to have scenarios where you can buy Sightstone at a point in time where you could not practically speaking buy other items, and then have it pay off before you could buy other items, effectively making it a zero-opportunity-cost item. Consider the following scenario: you are playing an AP. You have DRing+Chain Vest+Sorcs+Guide+Abyssal. Your next item is going to be NLR--to be made into Hourglass or DCap. You base with 900 gold. You can't buy the NLR right now. Your two options are either buy 3 wards, or buy Sightstone. At this point, Sightstone is strictly the better play, so long as you'd place all 3 wards before you can afford NLR. If you place 3 wards, the net cost is 700-490=210 gold. The cost of 3 wards 225 gold. Even if you've just used 3 wards and then sell the Sightstone to buy NLR, Sightstone has made good on its investment before you could conceivably have bought anything else. What's more, the item doesn't punish you for using MORE than 3 wards. You can use wards far more aggressively than otherwise, and you are not punished for doing so because there's no additional cost for using more wards.
Hey, I didn't mean to offend you... I like your posts :c
And don't worry I do expect people on TL to understand about opportunity 
Thank you for reminding me these critical points. I try to follow the discussion as much as possible but threads are long, and I wasn't necessarily pointing to you in my post but rather the discussion in general and the idea that buying a sightstone is necessarily worth it if you'd buy 10 (or whatever other number..) wards over the course of the game.
I still believe some of the points you make are situational, and I'm not acting typical french just for the sake of contradicting people but:
1) Being 70% sell back doesn't offset the initial investment required for sightstone. Getting that cash back is going to occur at a time where gold value will be different than when you bought it.
2) Sightstone generates a lot of gold.... in wards. I feel it is difficult to say if an exhausting use of those wards are absolutely necessary. I still agree the items is stupidly gold efficient... but its efficiency also depends how important warding is for each role.
3) While I agree, a damage dealer may use that slot for advancing in his build before combining items, given the condition that the ward coverage is sufficient by the rest of the team. Also you need to have those 700 gold hanging around there and available.
This means that it is possible (and actually very likely) for you to have scenarios where you can buy Sightstone at a point in time where you could not practically speaking buy other items, and then have it pay off before you could buy other items, effectively making it a zero-opportunity-cost item.
While I agree with you about cost effectiveness, it is still a possibility. In your exemple, I still have the choice to buy 5 wards (375) and red+blue pots or oracle, to secure short term warding and stats/vision for next teamfight. I'll lose the 490 that you get back LATER when you sell sightstone but you are much more effective for the situation you might be facing, which may allow you to gain those 490 gold or more. It is not a zero-opportunity cost item.
I still think sightstone is very strong. I'm just trying to say that it is not going to be a "free" go-to item because you might not always have those 700 gold hanging around for warding for non support champions.
I might be totally missing the point but in my understanding there is a cost of opportunity, if only because you buying/selling back are two separate occurrence in time. Don't hesitate to point out if I'm being dumb about the situation.
EDIT : sorry I'm slow at typing while eating, nothing really new compared to the posts in between
|
On December 07 2012 04:36 Alaric wrote:
Nothing stops you from buying some wards alongside it as long as you have the slotss, the same way you can still buy pots alongside flask (but use the flask first pretty please).
I think you should be buying wards on top of the ruby sight stone or alternatively your team can stack 3 or 4 of them and have 9-12 wards on the map at all times.
|
Anyone tried Kennen with Hurricane yet? How is it?
|
On December 07 2012 04:42 Simberto wrote:Someone posted this thing: http://enigmablade.net/lol-item-changer/A few pages back. Now, the author of that addon states that you can't be banned for using it. However, he is obviously not the most trustworthy source. So i want to ask the knowledgable people of this forum if this is indeed true, or false, or questionable.
AFAIK the item changer just edits a couple of json files, which you could have done by hand, which a Rioter actually posted instructions on how to do it on the official forums. So it's fine.
|
United States15536 Posts
On December 07 2012 04:42 Simberto wrote:Someone posted this thing: http://enigmablade.net/lol-item-changer/A few pages back. Now, the author of that addon states that you can't be banned for using it. However, he is obviously not the most trustworthy source. So i want to ask the knowledgable people of this forum if this is indeed true, or false, or questionable.
It seems like this would be fine. Riot did indeed release the APIs for interacting with things like this lately, so it's clear that they don't mind these kinds of tools (I'm pretty sure).
EDIT: Zed'd.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
