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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On December 07 2012 02:31 TheYango wrote: That scenario is categorically a misplay (if you're so far out that a gank will succeed even when you see it coming). Pretty much. A gank shouldn't be possible without a misplay or an extremely well played dive. but since diving is so risky in LoL it's pretty much not going to happen as much as it could so most ganks in lol are misplays. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Plus given recent tournament outcomes, I'd hardly call FeaR's play remotely close to "the highest level". | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
wards being cheap as fuck is a bad thing though. every ward someone kills should hurt you in some way. oracles is not too expensive btw. you just get after the laneing phase now mid-lategame will look exactly the same as now. but pinks will have more relevance for a longer time, which is good for support and jungle gameplay as you have to actually spot wards so you can deny vision and hide wards if you want to keep some vision. make the following predictions: - the early-midgame warding and counterwarding style will become more awareness and skill based. - the mid-lategame warding and counterwarding style will be exactly the same as in s2 because everyone will have 2+ sightstones and oracles becomes more costeffective the longer the game goes. But the so called 'ward-burden' is lessened, so supports will have more gold to spend on other stuff than wards. | ||
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
And even if there is too much vision when champs have 5 items it's not like people will be willing to forgo their 6th item for wards (if they were, sightstone is not the problem here), so eventually team vision will be solely the support's doing. And Oracle's is still going to be worth buying lategame, clearing vision is too important and a few hundred to a thousand gold isn't going to break you at this point. I think it would be interesting if they dropped the cost of pinks to 100g | ||
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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
Since wards only give 10 gold for a kill now I definitely think oracles should come down in price to 300 gold. Correction: Keep oracles at 400 gold and reduce the cost of pink wards to 100! | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On December 07 2012 02:35 PrinceXizor wrote: Pretty much. A gank shouldn't be possible without a misplay or an extremely well played dive. but since diving is so risky in LoL it's pretty much not going to happen as much as it could so most ganks in lol are misplays. Nothing about sightwards changes anything if this is the case. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 07 2012 02:39 thenexusp wrote: And even if there is too much vision when champs have 5 items it's not like people will be willing to forgo their 6th item for wards (if they were, sightstone is not the problem here), so eventually team vision will be solely the support's doing. And Oracle's is still going to be worth buying lategame, clearing vision is too important and a few hundred to a thousand gold isn't going to break you at this point. 90% of games are over by the time the non-supports have 6 major items, and players actually do typically sell minor items (e.g. Doran's) to make room for wards. | ||
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
On December 06 2012 21:22 TheYango wrote: Yeah, I agree. It's still an active your team needs lategame, but the reduced stats/gold makes it really awkward to buy first because of how it hurts your overall combat effectiveness. I think that starting rejuv+faerie and rushing philo is a decent alternative to bottle in passive lanes, even if it delays your sightstone a bit. You're effectively looking for philo to generate gold for those couple of wards you need while you save up for sightstone, after which it starts paying for itself. After all, shurelya is still good, even if it isn't "rush asap" material any more. | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On December 07 2012 02:43 greggy wrote: I think that starting rejuv+faerie and rushing philo is a decent alternative to bottle in passive lanes, even if it delays your sightstone a bit. You're effectively looking for philo to generate gold for those couple of wards you need while you save up for sightstone, after which it starts paying for itself. After all, shurelya is still good, even if it isn't "rush asap" material any more. did they nerf the active on Rev or something? wasnt everyone advocating rushing it when they nerfed heart of gold? | ||
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
On December 07 2012 02:41 TheYango wrote: 90% of games are over by the time the non-supports have 6 major items, and players actually do typically sell minor items (e.g. Doran's) to make room for wards. And I'd say 90% of those games are over before non-supports get 5 major items (or at least 'over' in the sense that one team has a large advantage) | ||
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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
On December 07 2012 02:39 clickrush wrote: pinks being the main counterwarding tool instead of oracles is the best thing that could happen for support players, because counterwarding with pinks instead of oracles requires skill. wards being cheap as fuck is a bad thing though. every ward someone kills should hurt you in some way. oracles is not too expensive btw. you just get after the laneing phase now mid-lategame will look exactly the same as now. but pinks will have more relevance for a longer time, which is good for support and jungle gameplay as you have to actually spot wards so you can deny vision and hide wards if you want to keep some vision. make the following predictions: - the early-midgame warding and counterwarding style will become more awareness and skill based. - the mid-lategame warding and counterwarding style will be exactly the same as in s2 because everyone will have 2+ sightstones and oracles becomes more costeffective the longer the game goes. But the so called 'ward-burden' is lessened, so supports will have more gold to spend on other stuff than wards. This guy I agree with. Although why doesn't Riot bring the gold bounty on wards back to 25g so warding excessively against pink/oracles feeds your opponent :p Also ganking got a general buff after flash cool down got nerfed, even with the easier summoner cool down mastery. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On December 07 2012 02:45 arb wrote: did they nerf the active on Rev or something? wasnt everyone advocating rushing it when they nerfed heart of gold? Not the active, but they butchered all the stats (CDR down to 10%, HP from 250 to 200 iirc, and regens halved or close to it) and philo suffered a huge deal so if you want to be able to complete Shurelya whenever needed you'd better start kindlegem and get a flask for your regen. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 07 2012 02:39 clickrush wrote: pinks being the main counterwarding tool instead of oracles is the best thing that could happen for support players, because counterwarding with pinks instead of oracles requires skill. The effective way to do this is to drop the cost of pinks to 50 or 75 gold but provide no vision on their own (e.g. they rely on player/green ward vision to actually provide vision over their detection radius). This way, when de-warding low-value ward spots, you're not punished by being forced to pay for vision you don't need (currently it's not punishing for a team to place Sightstone wards in low-value locations because they don't actually cost anything, but it IS punishing to try and de-ward those because you're paying for pink ward vision over those spots, not just the detection aspect). The thing is, all these solutions are far more convoluted than just taking Sightstone out of the game, or drastically nerfing it to a sensible level. I'm not convinced Sightstone in its current state creates enough gameplay to warrant keeping as is. In considering mechanics, we have to ask "What does this ADD to the gameplay?" I'm not seeing how Sightstone is a positive addition to the game. It just completely FUBARs the cost/reward of warding/de-warding. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On December 07 2012 02:55 wei2coolman wrote: They should make sighstone give less vision, like a gimped version of green wards. Make them drop teemo shrooms Game 100% better instantly | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
On December 07 2012 03:01 sob3k wrote: Make them drop teemo shrooms Game 100% better instantly Actually yeah, gimping the radius on Sightstone wards is a pretty cool idea. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On December 06 2012 23:48 Roffles wrote: Yeah, and there's also a ward cap, and the map is huge. I don't see your point. The map is huge but the 2 perma rune/river wards give you immense vision and there is basically no river gank. I just wanted to remind that vision != passivity. Aggressive laners will be able to go all out now. People will actually force things since they get clearer information. There are way more complex things going into this aggressiveness vs passivity debate, and having more vision doesn't go more in a direction than another. It's just a new data to play with. EDIT : On December 07 2012 03:01 sob3k wrote: Make them drop teemo shrooms Game 100% better instantly I hate you for making me imagine that. | ||
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komokun
France343 Posts
On December 07 2012 01:06 TheYango wrote: You can get away with it in solo queue. But in tournament games, even the non-supports are buying enough wards that Sightstone is worth a buy. Sightstone indeed might be prohibitive to buy early. But remember, you only have to place 3 wards for the net cost of buy Sightstone->place wards->sell Sightstone to have lower net cost than just buying 3 wards in the first place. Obviously, you lock up 700 gold in the Sightstone while you hold it, BUT if you are buying it at a point where you cannot/would not be buying other items anyway (e.g. you are saving for a big component like NLR, or you have filled all your slots and will buy your next item in one go), then buying a Sightstone is going to be straight-up better than buying wards because it's definitely going to be the case that you place 3 wards before you get to buy again. If you're buying less than 10 wards a game on ANY role, you're straight-up not buying enough wards. Hullo, I don't post often but have been lurking for a while. Thing is, you guys are ignoring the time factor so comparing net cost I feel is not really relevant as investing 700 up-front is a decision that have an opportunity cost. It would be more accurate to consider cost as in finance. Buying a 700 item first/then sell it late late game and paying 75-150 each times you go back is a much different problem then "10x75>700" I feel solo lanes don't have that much gold to spare early if they want to keep pressure in lane, and wouldn't bother with it when the lanephase is over and you have jungler/support spamming 3 wards each on top of pinks/additionnal wards that those mid/top/adc are still going to buy when they can afford them. The cost of buying 15-20 individual wards throughout the course of the game is not necessarily more costly than investing a large amount of you initial resources into an item giving you (a lot of) "free" wards. Think of it like renting an office when starting up a business. It isn't worth it to spend all your available cash into buying the office when you can just rent it and use the cash more efficiently for developing your blooming business instead of the ownership of walls and wires. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On December 07 2012 03:15 Erasme wrote: When you have all the information, it's hard to die. Indeed, but it's not like having a support or even a support and jungler with sightstones means you have all the information. All you really know on bot lane for example is "Is the jungler 5 seconds away from attacking us" and "where in that bush is blitzcrank actually standing". All I really think Riot intended with these sightstones was that after a certain point in the game (when support/jungler can afford to dump 700 or so in a ward-item), a certain amount of information should be available almost all the time. If they didn't intend for this to happen, why would they have buffed the wards while nerfing oracle? If this literally breaks competitive play and no one ever dies, they will obviously fix it. I certainly doubt that will happen. | ||
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