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On December 06 2012 23:29 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 19:43 TheYango wrote:On December 06 2012 19:22 Sareth wrote:
Is it just me or is the role of a jungler different from before?
In S2 the main-aspect was to gank/countergank, but due to the sightstone and esp. the big nerf to the oracle i don't see a lot of successfull ganks happen in S3.
But if you pick jungler with a fast clear like Shyv, Amumu or Mundo and just farm/counterjungle/hold lanes when your laners go buy you're gonna have still quite a few items even without any kills/assists.
So as a jungler its now just farming for the lategame? Boring...
I really hate the nerf to oracle... The Oracle's nerf, Sightstone, and CV buff all contribute to providing low-cost, undeniable vision, which could have a very detrimental impact on gameplay at high levels once people fully utilize their potential. Something has to give. The potential for lategame stalemate is very high if everyone's playing a game of complete information, because nobody has to commit to fights they can't win with perfect vision. In DotA wards last longer, give more vision, and are cheaper. And the games are way more action packed. Vision is not the problem.
Huh wards are limited, the map is bigger, there are teleport scrolls and smoke of deceit. LoL has just increased vision while adding nothing to counteract it. That's what Yango is talking about.
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On December 06 2012 23:48 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 23:29 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 06 2012 19:43 TheYango wrote:On December 06 2012 19:22 Sareth wrote:
Is it just me or is the role of a jungler different from before?
In S2 the main-aspect was to gank/countergank, but due to the sightstone and esp. the big nerf to the oracle i don't see a lot of successfull ganks happen in S3.
But if you pick jungler with a fast clear like Shyv, Amumu or Mundo and just farm/counterjungle/hold lanes when your laners go buy you're gonna have still quite a few items even without any kills/assists.
So as a jungler its now just farming for the lategame? Boring...
I really hate the nerf to oracle... The Oracle's nerf, Sightstone, and CV buff all contribute to providing low-cost, undeniable vision, which could have a very detrimental impact on gameplay at high levels once people fully utilize their potential. Something has to give. The potential for lategame stalemate is very high if everyone's playing a game of complete information, because nobody has to commit to fights they can't win with perfect vision. In DotA wards last longer, give more vision, and are cheaper. And the games are way more action packed. Vision is not the problem. Yeah, and there's also a ward cap, and the map is huge. I don't see your point.
i think the sightstone needs some tweaking indeed. Maybe have a max ward on map or maybe max refills on sightstone.
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On December 06 2012 23:52 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 23:13 jcarlsoniv wrote:On December 06 2012 22:42 seRapH wrote:
Philo isn't the only thing that builds out of faerie. Chalice does too now. And chalice buillds into crucible, which is absolutely incredible. I tried a Faerie/Flask start on Zyra mid yesterday. Was kinda lulzy (I think flask is a stupid item), and I got a nice early chalice and then guise. Still not sure how I feel about all the changes. It's weird going 9/0/21 as a mid... Weren't you there in s1? 
Only a couple hundred ranked S1 games vs >1300 ranked S2 games. I got used to 21/0/9 =P
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United States47024 Posts
On December 07 2012 00:05 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 23:29 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 06 2012 19:43 TheYango wrote:On December 06 2012 19:22 Sareth wrote:
Is it just me or is the role of a jungler different from before?
In S2 the main-aspect was to gank/countergank, but due to the sightstone and esp. the big nerf to the oracle i don't see a lot of successfull ganks happen in S3.
But if you pick jungler with a fast clear like Shyv, Amumu or Mundo and just farm/counterjungle/hold lanes when your laners go buy you're gonna have still quite a few items even without any kills/assists.
So as a jungler its now just farming for the lategame? Boring...
I really hate the nerf to oracle... The Oracle's nerf, Sightstone, and CV buff all contribute to providing low-cost, undeniable vision, which could have a very detrimental impact on gameplay at high levels once people fully utilize their potential. Something has to give. The potential for lategame stalemate is very high if everyone's playing a game of complete information, because nobody has to commit to fights they can't win with perfect vision. In DotA wards last longer, give more vision, and are cheaper. And the games are way more action packed. Vision is not the problem. Huh wards are limited, the map is bigger, there are teleport scrolls and smoke of deceit. LoL has just increased vision while adding nothing to counteract it. That's what Yango is talking about.
What's more, before Smoke was in the game, the vision game actually WAS a problem.
The game had a huge tendency to develop into 60+ minute farm fests in many of the versions leading up to the introduction of Smoke, due to the absolute safety you could get from a few high value wards.
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On December 07 2012 00:17 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 00:05 Numy wrote:On December 06 2012 23:29 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 06 2012 19:43 TheYango wrote:On December 06 2012 19:22 Sareth wrote:
Is it just me or is the role of a jungler different from before?
In S2 the main-aspect was to gank/countergank, but due to the sightstone and esp. the big nerf to the oracle i don't see a lot of successfull ganks happen in S3.
But if you pick jungler with a fast clear like Shyv, Amumu or Mundo and just farm/counterjungle/hold lanes when your laners go buy you're gonna have still quite a few items even without any kills/assists.
So as a jungler its now just farming for the lategame? Boring...
I really hate the nerf to oracle... The Oracle's nerf, Sightstone, and CV buff all contribute to providing low-cost, undeniable vision, which could have a very detrimental impact on gameplay at high levels once people fully utilize their potential. Something has to give. The potential for lategame stalemate is very high if everyone's playing a game of complete information, because nobody has to commit to fights they can't win with perfect vision. In DotA wards last longer, give more vision, and are cheaper. And the games are way more action packed. Vision is not the problem. Huh wards are limited, the map is bigger, there are teleport scrolls and smoke of deceit. LoL has just increased vision while adding nothing to counteract it. That's what Yango is talking about. What's more, before Smoke was in the game, the vision game actually WAS a problem. The game had a huge tendency to develop into 60+ minute farm fests in many of the versions leading up to the introduction of Smoke, due to the absolute safety you could get from a few high value wards.
Maybe the solution would be to add a smoke item to LoL. It's fun because it lets the team do nice moves like stronger ganks, forcing teamfights etc, while still forcing an investment.
Question is how it would actually work, it seems far more uncommon in LoL to be spread out in the late game than it does in Dota where it's semi easy to catch people alone if you smokegank lategame.
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United States15536 Posts
On December 07 2012 00:17 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 00:05 Numy wrote:On December 06 2012 23:29 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 06 2012 19:43 TheYango wrote:On December 06 2012 19:22 Sareth wrote:
Is it just me or is the role of a jungler different from before?
In S2 the main-aspect was to gank/countergank, but due to the sightstone and esp. the big nerf to the oracle i don't see a lot of successfull ganks happen in S3.
But if you pick jungler with a fast clear like Shyv, Amumu or Mundo and just farm/counterjungle/hold lanes when your laners go buy you're gonna have still quite a few items even without any kills/assists.
So as a jungler its now just farming for the lategame? Boring...
I really hate the nerf to oracle... The Oracle's nerf, Sightstone, and CV buff all contribute to providing low-cost, undeniable vision, which could have a very detrimental impact on gameplay at high levels once people fully utilize their potential. Something has to give. The potential for lategame stalemate is very high if everyone's playing a game of complete information, because nobody has to commit to fights they can't win with perfect vision. In DotA wards last longer, give more vision, and are cheaper. And the games are way more action packed. Vision is not the problem. Huh wards are limited, the map is bigger, there are teleport scrolls and smoke of deceit. LoL has just increased vision while adding nothing to counteract it. That's what Yango is talking about. What's more, before Smoke was in the game, the vision game actually WAS a problem. The game had a huge tendency to develop into 60+ minute farm fests in many of the versions leading up to the introduction of Smoke, due to the absolute safety you could get from a few high value wards.
Hearing this stuff begs the question: are we basically assuming that LoL will end up making many of the same design decisions that DotA made over the course of its development? I believe you've (or someone similarly informed) said "if you want to see the future of LoL, look at DotA," but it seems to be REALLY spot on atm. As in, eerily similar. As in, maybe Riot should just look to their ancestor and go "Oh, maybe that's where this is going --- let's go there NOW."
But I guess that would also make it so that they aren't developing from their own game, but the extrapolations from a different one entirely. Doesn't seem good either. =/
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On December 07 2012 00:05 monx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 23:48 Roffles wrote:On December 06 2012 23:29 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 06 2012 19:43 TheYango wrote:On December 06 2012 19:22 Sareth wrote:
Is it just me or is the role of a jungler different from before?
In S2 the main-aspect was to gank/countergank, but due to the sightstone and esp. the big nerf to the oracle i don't see a lot of successfull ganks happen in S3.
But if you pick jungler with a fast clear like Shyv, Amumu or Mundo and just farm/counterjungle/hold lanes when your laners go buy you're gonna have still quite a few items even without any kills/assists.
So as a jungler its now just farming for the lategame? Boring...
I really hate the nerf to oracle... The Oracle's nerf, Sightstone, and CV buff all contribute to providing low-cost, undeniable vision, which could have a very detrimental impact on gameplay at high levels once people fully utilize their potential. Something has to give. The potential for lategame stalemate is very high if everyone's playing a game of complete information, because nobody has to commit to fights they can't win with perfect vision. In DotA wards last longer, give more vision, and are cheaper. And the games are way more action packed. Vision is not the problem. Yeah, and there's also a ward cap, and the map is huge. I don't see your point. i think the sightstone needs some tweaking indeed. Maybe have a max ward on map or maybe max refills on sightstone.
it shouldnt have made it in the game in the first place imo.
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When you guys aren't support/jungle are you actually buying sightstones?
I find that as mid or top I never have a flat 700g to drop on wards. It makes me wonder if I buy more than 10 wards in the course of a normal game ordinarily. I probably only do if I've got a really bad support.
I can see that it's crazy good for support and jungle, but it feels like if I got a sightstone instead of a chalice or a brutalizer or something as mid or top that my in lane opponent would just kill me.
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Personally I have only purchased the item as a support (I tend to be a ward whore mid game). I've never used the item on any other roles and just stick to 1 or 2 normal wards when I can spare the cost.
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United States47024 Posts
You can get away with it in solo queue. But in tournament games, even the non-supports are buying enough wards that Sightstone is worth a buy.
Sightstone indeed might be prohibitive to buy early. But remember, you only have to place 3 wards for the net cost of buy Sightstone->place wards->sell Sightstone to have lower net cost than just buying 3 wards in the first place. Obviously, you lock up 700 gold in the Sightstone while you hold it, BUT if you are buying it at a point where you cannot/would not be buying other items anyway (e.g. you are saving for a big component like NLR, or you have filled all your slots and will buy your next item in one go), then buying a Sightstone is going to be straight-up better than buying wards because it's definitely going to be the case that you place 3 wards before you get to buy again.
On December 07 2012 00:32 Ketara wrote:
I find that as mid or top I never have a flat 700g to drop on wards. It makes me wonder if I buy more than 10 wards in the course of a normal game ordinarily. I probably only do if I've got a really bad support.
If you're buying less than 10 wards a game on ANY role, you're straight-up not buying enough wards.
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Chaox dicking around with Talon on his smurf. Boots5, 2 Black Cleavers, LW, Brutalizer. Nothing survives.
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What if sightstone wards were visible? Like, you wouldn't even need an oracles to remove them. You'd still have vision of the area until someone came and stomped it, so it would still serve a purpose of giving you information, but it wouldn't create a scenario of perfect map control because these wards could be cleared without oracles.
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On December 07 2012 01:13 Lounge wrote:
What if sightstone wards were visible? Like, you wouldn't even need an oracles to remove them. You'd still have vision of the area until someone came and stomped it, so it would still serve a purpose of giving you information, but it wouldn't create a scenario of perfect map control because these wards could be cleared without oracles.
Seems it would be far too weak though, the jungler would just make it part of a jungle sweep to go and destroy wards, the opposing laner would destroy the wards constantly... even if they gave no money, I doubt anyone would feel it worth anything, would be denied to often to be worth putting out new ones.
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Doesn't the oracles nerf combined with free wards create a huge buff to pink wards? Let's say your opposing mid player buys a sight stone and wards both river bushes. Simply buy a pink ward and a dorans ring, counter ward one of the bushes and call your jungler. You now have an extra dorans item agains your lane opponent early which is huge imo.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 07 2012 01:16 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 01:13 Lounge wrote:
What if sightstone wards were visible? Like, you wouldn't even need an oracles to remove them. You'd still have vision of the area until someone came and stomped it, so it would still serve a purpose of giving you information, but it wouldn't create a scenario of perfect map control because these wards could be cleared without oracles. Seems it would be far too weak though, the jungler would just make it part of a jungle sweep to go and destroy wards, the opposing laner would destroy the wards constantly... even if they gave no money, I doubt anyone would feel it worth anything, would be denied to often to be worth putting out new ones.
It's still useful for brush/objective control because you can place the wards in places where the enemy has to go out of their way to check like the little nooks to the sides of the entrances to the Baron/Dragon pit (which they would do with Oracle's anyway).
It would make the item a lot weaker for laning scenarios (which is probably a good thing, because a laner with Sightstone is more or less ungankable at this point if he uses it intelligently), as you could only use the wards in low-value locations. But the item would still be useful, and it would force people to try and find clever higher-value Sightstone ward locations the can get away with.
On December 07 2012 01:21 Ghost-z wrote:
Doesn't the oracles nerf combined with free wards create a huge buff to pink wards? Let's say your opposing mid player buys a sight stone and wards both river bushes. Simply buy a pink ward and a dorans ring, counter ward one of the bushes and call your jungler. You now have an extra dorans item agains your lane opponent early which is huge imo.
Nobody's going to buy a Sightstone so early that it would damage their laning like that.
In post-laning scenarios it has the problem that Sightstone wards still don't actually cost you anything, so you can still just replace your ward somewhere outside of the pink ward's detection range. You might require multiple wards to achieve the same coverage, but multiple wards isn't problematic to buy when Sightstone wards dont cost gold.
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United States47024 Posts
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On December 07 2012 01:21 Ghost-z wrote:
Doesn't the oracles nerf combined with free wards create a huge buff to pink wards? Let's say your opposing mid player buys a sight stone and wards both river bushes. Simply buy a pink ward and a dorans ring, counter ward one of the bushes and call your jungler. You now have an extra dorans item agains your lane opponent early which is huge imo.
If they were going to make it easier to get wards they shouldnt have nerfed Oracles in the first place, its not worth paying 400g for 5 minutes of vision, esp when they can replace the wards for free now.
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As a jungler main, I can't say that I'm too happy with this patch. Buying wards and good ward placement was something that separated the good from the bad, and now that wards are pretty much free after dropping 700g into a Sightstone, and Oracles is nerfed, ganking is much harder. It's nearly impossible to navigate through all the wards bottom lane.
Ugh. I really don't like the direction this game is headed in.
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On December 06 2012 19:14 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 18:35 TheYango wrote:On December 06 2012 17:32 Sufficiency wrote:
I am staying away from SotD. It seems way too hard to utilize.
Why would I want to get this item instead of PD? It's like saying "Gee, instead of having ~30% chance of crit, I want to guarantee 3 crits in a bit more than one second to ensure a kill; if I fail to kill my target, I am absolutely boned". I can see some edge cases which this item may be useful, but I don't see how it can be superior to a PD in general. Then you better use it when you know it will kill your target. Honestly, the real question is this: is 100% crit for 3 hits better than 30% crit all the time? In a game where you're ahead/the enemy team doesn't have a lot of survivability/your team has a lot of up-front burst, the 100% crit is potentially better because fights shouldn't go long enough that you can attack 10 times before the fight's decided. In a game where you need more sustained damage-dealing ability, the PD is better. Of course, the biggest loss is finding a way to make up the lost movespeed from PD. Now that I'm working through the number, I don't think SotD is that great, though again, I think the only champ it's really viable on is twitch, just due to the nature of twitch's ulti, and his scaling. Well technically we're talking about opportunity costs~, and generally PD or SotD comes after IE or BT. IE already comes with 25% crit chance. So the change from PD to SotD's active, is actually 55% critchance vs 100% crit chance, and +50% AS for 3 shots. Assuming you're talking mostly about total damage output in the first 3 shots So assuming fictionally around 200 AD. with IE+SotD it's 1500dmg (in 3 shots) with IE+PD it's 1095dmg (on average, in 3 shots, with each shot averaging out to 365 per shot) So with in the first 3 shots, we're talking about a difference of around 400 damage (not to mention SotD active will deliver this damage faster) PD could make up for damage difference in a matter of 2-3 shots (considering the lack of passive AS from SotD after the active). Though SotD vs PD after BT tells a different story though Assuming base 200 AD again. It's 1200dmg (in 3shots) BT+PD it's 780dmg( average in 3shots) this is a much bigger difference in dmg output for first 3 shots, with each shot doing around 260 each. needs around 3-4 shots to catch up to SotD active dmg.
I've actually been building SotD before IE or BT on Vayne based on similar principles to those which made rushing PD on her popular. This takes advantage of several facets of early fights:- Defenses are slim or in progress, which maximizes the danger of the burst.
- Fights tend to be short, so SotD's post-active handicap has minimal effect.
- Burst tends to be more important for fights than sustained damage.
SotD also has the advantage of being 600g cheaper than PD. For more or less the same cost you can have SotD + Furor or Alacrity.
As a side note, activating SotD is an auto-attack reset. Using it after a Vayne Q is in the air will cause it to crit without decrementing your crit counter. So Vayne actually gets four crits out of the deal when executed properly.
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Oracles nerf was to prevent a team who gets ahead from completely denying the other teams vision indefinitely. 5 minutes is still plenty of time to clear the map of wards during late game no matter how many sight stones they have. Pink wards are going to become a strong, cost-effective counter to sightstone during lane phase. I think many of you are being to quick to condemn the changes to the vision game.
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EPT
