[Patch 1.0.0.152: Preseason 3] General Discussion - Page 68

On December 07 2012 03:15 Erasme wrote:
When you have all the information, it's hard to die.

On December 07 2012 03:15 Erasme wrote:
When you have all the information, it's hard to die.

On December 07 2012 03:30 xes wrote:
The best thing about this patch now is that Udyr becomes a lot better with the slow reduction, better tenacity items, and that Sej active aura item.



Shard is pretty nice. The promote item (Banner of Command) is fun too

On December 07 2012 03:30 thenexusp wrote:
Sightstone may or may not be OP, but it's clear from previous experience that Riot will never get good data on anything unless it's absurdly OP on release. (See: Rengar, Irelia -- both champs were buffed after release because people thought they sucked)

On December 07 2012 03:21 sob3k wrote:


Its actually a very complex problem in these games.

Less ward vision = easier ganks, more aggressive jungle, more teamfighting BUT ALSO Scared passive/safe lane play, more clumpy lategame

More ward vison = impossible ganks, passive jungle, less teamfighting BUT ALSO balls out diving/aggressive laning, More splitting lategame

On December 07 2012 03:51 cascades wrote:
Theory: NA sux, so making a champ that requires <100 ping to play = potential OP sleeper heroes

On December 07 2012 03:14 komokun wrote:
Thing is, you guys are ignoring the time factor so comparing net cost I feel is not really relevant as investing 700 up-front is a decision that have an opportunity cost. It would be more accurate to consider cost as in finance. Buying a 700 item first/then sell it late late game and paying 75-150 each times you go back is a much different problem then "10x75>700"

I feel solo lanes don't have that much gold to spare early if they want to keep pressure in lane, and wouldn't bother with it when the lanephase is over and you have jungler/support spamming 3 wards each on top of pinks/additionnal wards that those mid/top/adc are still going to buy when they can afford them.

The cost of buying 15-20 individual wards throughout the course of the game is not necessarily more costly than investing a large amount of you initial resources into an item giving you (a lot of) "free" wards.

Think of it like renting an office when starting up a business. It isn't worth it to spend all your available cash into buying the office when you can just rent it and use the cash more efficiently for developing your blooming business instead of the ownership of walls and wires.

On December 07 2012 03:52 Mementoss wrote:
Do summoner spells hurt LoL? If they don't improve the gameplay, than they hurt it.

Instead of everyone picking flash, why don't they just add all the summoner spells into item actives? That way they wouldn't have to nerf flash 10000 times because every always picks it. Make it into more of niche thing. I think it could be interesting. Frozen Mallet active, exhaust? etcetc

Than you have more choice, you either chose the item with the better flat stats, or the better utility. I think it would definitly be fun to play with in pbe

EDIT* There are a lot of spells no one ever uses barely anyways. Adding them onto items could bring some neat strategies forth/see the coolness of the spells in situations

On December 07 2012 03:55 TheYango wrote:

Ok NOW this pisses me off because I have to beleaguer this point every damn time we get to this argument. I understand how investment/opportunity cost works, and it's insulting to me for you to imply otherwise. I've addressed this issue every time we discuss Sightstone, and you clearly haven't followed the discussion.

There are 3 major reasons why the investment/opportunity cost analysis for other items (gp10) does not apply to Sightstone in similar fashion:

1) Sightstone is a 70% sell-back item, unlike the 50% of gp10
2) Sightstone generates gold value at almost twice the rate of a gp10
3) (most critically) Sightstone takes an item slot that essentially no other item could compete for--the slot that you typically reserve for holding wards

This means that it is possible (and actually very likely) for you to have scenarios where you can buy Sightstone at a point in time where you could not practically speaking buy other items, and then have it pay off before you could buy other items, effectively making it a zero-opportunity-cost item.

Consider the following scenario: you are playing an AP. You have DRing+Chain Vest+Sorcs+Guise+Abyssal. Your next item is going to be NLR--to be made into Hourglass. You base with 900 gold. You can't buy the NLR right now. Your two options are either buy 3 wards, or buy Sightstone.

At this point, Sightstone is strictly the better play, so long as you'd place all 3 wards before you can afford NLR. If you place 3 wards, the net cost is 700-490=210 gold. The cost of 3 wards 225 gold. Even if you've just used 3 wards and then sell the Sightstone to buy NLR, Sightstone has made good on its investment before you could conceivably have bought anything else. What's more, the item doesn't punish you for using MORE than 3 wards. You can use wards far more aggressively than otherwise, and you are not punished for doing so because there's no additional cost for using more wards.

On December 07 2012 04:09 hasuprotoss wrote:
You realize that these "points" where Sightstone is the "strictly better play" rarely exist for any length of time for anybody outside of support and jungler and you are constantly reiterating the same very few rare instances that might exist for only a few minutes a game for people outside of those two?

On December 07 2012 03:55 TheYango wrote:

Ok NOW this pisses me off because I have to beleaguer this point every damn time we get to this argument. I understand how investment/opportunity cost works, and it's insulting to me for you to imply otherwise. I've addressed this issue every time we discuss Sightstone, and you clearly haven't followed the discussion.

There are 3 major reasons why the investment/opportunity cost analysis for other items (gp10) does not apply to Sightstone in similar fashion:

1) Sightstone is a 70% sell-back item, unlike the 50% of gp10
2) Sightstone generates gold value at almost twice the rate of a gp10
3) (most critically) Sightstone takes an item slot that essentially no other item could compete for--the slot that you typically reserve for holding wards

This means that it is possible (and actually very likely) for you to have scenarios where you can buy Sightstone at a point in time where you could not practically speaking buy other items, and then have it pay off before you could buy other items, effectively making it a zero-opportunity-cost item.

Consider the following scenario: you are playing an AP. You have DRing+Chain Vest+Sorcs+Guise+Abyssal. Your next item is going to be NLR--to be made into Hourglass. You base with 900 gold. You can't buy the NLR right now. Your two options are either buy 3 wards, or buy Sightstone.

At this point, Sightstone is strictly the better play, so long as you'd place all 3 wards before you can afford NLR. If you place 3 wards, the net cost is 700-490=210 gold. The cost of 3 wards 225 gold. Even if you've just used 3 wards and then sell the Sightstone to buy NLR, Sightstone has made good on its investment before you could conceivably have bought anything else. What's more, the item doesn't punish you for using MORE than 3 wards. You can use wards far more aggressively than otherwise, and you are not punished for doing so because there's no additional cost for using more wards.

On December 07 2012 03:30 thenexusp wrote:
Sightstone may or may not be OP, but it's clear from previous experience that Riot will never get good data on anything unless it's absurdly OP on release. (See: Rengar, Irelia -- both champs were buffed after release because people thought they sucked)

On December 07 2012 03:55 TheYango wrote:

Ok NOW this pisses me off because I have to beleaguer this point every damn time we get to this argument. I understand how investment/opportunity cost works, and it's insulting to me for you to imply otherwise. I've addressed this issue every time we discuss Sightstone, and you clearly haven't followed the discussion.

There are 3 major reasons why the investment/opportunity cost analysis for other items (gp10) does not apply to Sightstone in similar fashion:

1) Sightstone is a 70% sell-back item, unlike the 50% of gp10
2) Sightstone generates gold value at almost twice the rate of a gp10
3) (most critically) Sightstone takes an item slot that essentially no other item could compete for--the slot that you typically reserve for holding wards

This means that it is possible (and actually very likely) for you to have scenarios where you can buy Sightstone at a point in time where you could not practically speaking buy other items, and then have it pay off before you could buy other items, effectively making it a zero-opportunity-cost item.

Consider the following scenario: you are playing an AP. You have DRing+Chain Vest+Sorcs+Guise+Abyssal. Your next item is going to be NLR--to be made into Hourglass. You base with 900 gold. You can't buy the NLR right now. Your two options are either buy 3 wards, or buy Sightstone.

At this point, Sightstone is strictly the better play, so long as you'd place all 3 wards before you can afford NLR. If you place 3 wards, the net cost is 700-490=210 gold. The cost of 3 wards 225 gold. Even if you've just used 3 wards and then sell the Sightstone to buy NLR, Sightstone has made good on its investment before you could conceivably have bought anything else. What's more, the item doesn't punish you for using MORE than 3 wards. You can use wards far more aggressively than otherwise, and you are not punished for doing so because there's no additional cost for using more wards.

On December 07 2012 03:52 Ghost-z wrote:

This was exactly what I was trying to point out with my "remove the fog of war" example.

Since supports will always start the game with wards now and will also likely be the only player to afford a sight stone early, here are my predictions for the meta.

1) Bot lane will become an island with all their protective vision. Aggressive 2v2 fights/trades will become very common in lane.
2) Because of #1 Junglers will focus ganking mid and top lane. Mid laners will start roaming top for kills.
3) Because of #2 the upper river will be warded and counter warded heavily during lane phase. Early oracles or 1 pink ward near baron will be strong to control ganks on both lanes. Early 2v2 and 3v3 fights in upper river will make for exciting play.
4) Ezreal and Draven become the top ADC because of their dueling potential in bot lane combined with global ults to assist in these early 2v2s and 3v3s in the upper river.
5) Finally, after top laners are tired of being shit on by constant jungle pressure during the early game. Roaming Taric with Boots 5 + Ruby Sightstone will become OP as hell!