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On December 06 2012 14:49 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 14:36 Ketara wrote:
I don't think the heal is the problem with Rengar, I think it's Savagery.
He can do such crazy damage while building absolutely no damage items. He can take down towers I think possibly faster than any other champion in the game.
Rengar can be really sustainy if he builds tank items and Spirit Visage, but a lot of champions can do that, and that's fine really. The issue is that he can do that and still kill people.
His ult also gives him a magical free escape if he decides to split push, but if he wasn't doing such crazy damage to towers that wouldn't be so big a deal, and it's his ult that makes his jungling so cool.
I think Savagery is the issue. A lot of other champions build sustain, but they don't get a 15% total health burst heal haha, but yeah, it all works in conjunction. He can heal for that absurd amount and do tons of damage. It's his total kit that makes him too strong.
Well, Mundo heals like that...with his ult. And I agree its his total kit that makes Rengar super strong. I focus on the heal, because without the heal he would be easy to tune properly. Its kinda like Garen's passive: He can lose trades all day and it doesnt matter. The only thing that makes it fine is that he does lose trades, cant really disengage from an allin, and doesn't have that many strong traits.
Now Garen isn't an interesting champ, Rengar could be, so thats why its better to kill the heal and then balance from there.
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On December 06 2012 14:49 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 14:36 Ketara wrote:
I don't think the heal is the problem with Rengar, I think it's Savagery.
He can do such crazy damage while building absolutely no damage items. He can take down towers I think possibly faster than any other champion in the game.
Rengar can be really sustainy if he builds tank items and Spirit Visage, but a lot of champions can do that, and that's fine really. The issue is that he can do that and still kill people.
His ult also gives him a magical free escape if he decides to split push, but if he wasn't doing such crazy damage to towers that wouldn't be so big a deal, and it's his ult that makes his jungling so cool.
I think Savagery is the issue. A lot of other champions build sustain, but they don't get a 15% total health burst heal haha, but yeah, it all works in conjunction. He can heal for that absurd amount and do tons of damage. It's his total kit that makes him too strong.
Mostly I think the problem is he's basically impossible to shut down in lane.
-free sustain steroid WITHOUT having to ever touch a creep.
-instaclear capability that comes with the free sustain/defensive steroid.
Those two things alone make him ridiculously hard to shut down in lane even if you're at such an advantage that he won't even try to duel you. You can't let him roam because as with all stealth champions, they are supremely good at ganking for kills even when behind.
Then you factor in that he has a ranged snare and requires you to buy a pink just to try to allin him is really fucking dumb.
TLDR;
nerf the heal at minimum to 15% base hp when maxed, or else flat(absolutely no reason it should scale with max HP, makes tanky Rengar absolutely retarded)
Make his stealth like Twitch stealth where it takes a few seconds without taking damage to activate, it's an offensive initiation tool, not an escape. Even the ult name "Thrill of the Hunt" is offensive in nature. It's not a retreat tool.
When the Garen comparisons come up, Garen doesn't instaclear, he has to walk up to creeps to kill them, and all he has to get out is a mini-ghost and anti-slow.
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On December 06 2012 14:42 PrinceXizor wrote:
Why does riven have the best laning stats of any character? Kind of ridiculous.
Base 2 HP/sec Regen with + .2 hp/sec per level.
Gets Scaling Mres
345 MS
AND manaless? dumb.
She has no kit based sustain and had to do a shitty BT rush in S2.
Most melees get scaling MR.
Every champion got a 25MS buff with the S3 patch.
She also is hurt by armor hard.
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she's also unkillable once she gets double dorans in lane
i mean wtf really
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On December 06 2012 15:01 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 14:42 PrinceXizor wrote:
Why does riven have the best laning stats of any character? Kind of ridiculous.
Base 2 HP/sec Regen with + .2 hp/sec per level.
Gets Scaling Mres
345 MS
AND manaless? dumb. She has no kit based sustain and had to do a shitty BT rush in S2. Most melees get scaling MR. Every champion got a 25MS buff with the S3 patch. She also is hurt by armor hard.
Tabi + Chainvest shut her down so hard. lol.
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On December 06 2012 14:31 zodde wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 14:26 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On December 06 2012 14:20 Seuss wrote:On December 06 2012 14:14 ChaoSbringer wrote:
Rengar's heal should just start at 5% and scale 2.5 per level. That doesn't really solve the problem since Rengar maxes W first anyway. It might hurt his early laning slightly, but it won't stop him from becoming a raid boss. It also puts too many eggs in one basket in terms of game-design. If there was any reason to max anything other than W before, there would be zero afterward. I think rengar's w problem is similar to rivens. W was the highest dps, and best utility. They had to move rivens stuff around. Rengar's w is his biggest damage and wave clear and a heal. They need to nerf something so you can't just level the obvious skill. They've removed heals from champions before ( remember ez?). Wow, just googled that, how far back did they remove his heal? :O
RIP ap ezeal that was ADC, support, and AP at the same time...
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On December 06 2012 15:01 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 14:49 onlywonderboy wrote:On December 06 2012 14:36 Ketara wrote:
I don't think the heal is the problem with Rengar, I think it's Savagery.
He can do such crazy damage while building absolutely no damage items. He can take down towers I think possibly faster than any other champion in the game.
Rengar can be really sustainy if he builds tank items and Spirit Visage, but a lot of champions can do that, and that's fine really. The issue is that he can do that and still kill people.
His ult also gives him a magical free escape if he decides to split push, but if he wasn't doing such crazy damage to towers that wouldn't be so big a deal, and it's his ult that makes his jungling so cool.
I think Savagery is the issue. A lot of other champions build sustain, but they don't get a 15% total health burst heal haha, but yeah, it all works in conjunction. He can heal for that absurd amount and do tons of damage. It's his total kit that makes him too strong. Mostly I think the problem is he's basically impossible to shut down in lane. -free sustain steroid WITHOUT having to ever touch a creep. -instaclear capability that comes with the free sustain/defensive steroid. Those two things alone make him ridiculously hard to shut down in lane even if you're at such an advantage that he won't even try to duel you. You can't let him roam because as with all stealth champions, they are supremely good at ganking for kills even when behind. Then you factor in that he has a ranged snare and requires you to buy a pink just to try to allin him is really fucking dumb. TLDR; nerf the heal at minimum to 15% base hp when maxed, or else flat(absolutely no reason it should scale with max HP, makes tanky Rengar absolutely retarded) Make his stealth like Twitch stealth where it takes a few seconds without taking damage to activate, it's an offensive initiation tool, not an escape. Even the ult name "Thrill of the Hunt" is offensive in nature. It's not a retreat tool. When the Garen comparisons come up, Garen doesn't instaclear, he has to walk up to creeps to kill them, and all he has to get out is a mini-ghost and anti-slow.
Thats why Garen is bad. And Garen has to be bad otherwise his passive would make him broken. We surely could nerf Rengar's Base stats, scaling, and Q damage and allow him to keep W sustain, thus having a balanced, binary, slightly UP character. OR we could get rid of W heal, and have a character that is relatively simple to balance, save for stealth.
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On December 06 2012 15:09 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 15:01 Amui wrote:On December 06 2012 14:49 onlywonderboy wrote:On December 06 2012 14:36 Ketara wrote:
I don't think the heal is the problem with Rengar, I think it's Savagery.
He can do such crazy damage while building absolutely no damage items. He can take down towers I think possibly faster than any other champion in the game.
Rengar can be really sustainy if he builds tank items and Spirit Visage, but a lot of champions can do that, and that's fine really. The issue is that he can do that and still kill people.
His ult also gives him a magical free escape if he decides to split push, but if he wasn't doing such crazy damage to towers that wouldn't be so big a deal, and it's his ult that makes his jungling so cool.
I think Savagery is the issue. A lot of other champions build sustain, but they don't get a 15% total health burst heal haha, but yeah, it all works in conjunction. He can heal for that absurd amount and do tons of damage. It's his total kit that makes him too strong. Mostly I think the problem is he's basically impossible to shut down in lane. -free sustain steroid WITHOUT having to ever touch a creep. -instaclear capability that comes with the free sustain/defensive steroid. Those two things alone make him ridiculously hard to shut down in lane even if you're at such an advantage that he won't even try to duel you. You can't let him roam because as with all stealth champions, they are supremely good at ganking for kills even when behind. Then you factor in that he has a ranged snare and requires you to buy a pink just to try to allin him is really fucking dumb. TLDR; nerf the heal at minimum to 15% base hp when maxed, or else flat(absolutely no reason it should scale with max HP, makes tanky Rengar absolutely retarded) Make his stealth like Twitch stealth where it takes a few seconds without taking damage to activate, it's an offensive initiation tool, not an escape. Even the ult name "Thrill of the Hunt" is offensive in nature. It's not a retreat tool. When the Garen comparisons come up, Garen doesn't instaclear, he has to walk up to creeps to kill them, and all he has to get out is a mini-ghost and anti-slow. Thats why Garen is bad. And Garen has to be bad otherwise his passive would make him broken. We surely could nerf Rengar's Base stats, scaling, and Q damage and allow him to keep W sustain, thus having a balanced, binary, slightly UP character. OR we could get rid of W heal, and have a character that is relatively simple to balance, save for stealth.
Without the heal he needs some different effects on his ferocity-W.
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On December 06 2012 15:12 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 15:09 cLutZ wrote:On December 06 2012 15:01 Amui wrote:On December 06 2012 14:49 onlywonderboy wrote:On December 06 2012 14:36 Ketara wrote:
I don't think the heal is the problem with Rengar, I think it's Savagery.
He can do such crazy damage while building absolutely no damage items. He can take down towers I think possibly faster than any other champion in the game.
Rengar can be really sustainy if he builds tank items and Spirit Visage, but a lot of champions can do that, and that's fine really. The issue is that he can do that and still kill people.
His ult also gives him a magical free escape if he decides to split push, but if he wasn't doing such crazy damage to towers that wouldn't be so big a deal, and it's his ult that makes his jungling so cool.
I think Savagery is the issue. A lot of other champions build sustain, but they don't get a 15% total health burst heal haha, but yeah, it all works in conjunction. He can heal for that absurd amount and do tons of damage. It's his total kit that makes him too strong. Mostly I think the problem is he's basically impossible to shut down in lane. -free sustain steroid WITHOUT having to ever touch a creep. -instaclear capability that comes with the free sustain/defensive steroid. Those two things alone make him ridiculously hard to shut down in lane even if you're at such an advantage that he won't even try to duel you. You can't let him roam because as with all stealth champions, they are supremely good at ganking for kills even when behind. Then you factor in that he has a ranged snare and requires you to buy a pink just to try to allin him is really fucking dumb. TLDR; nerf the heal at minimum to 15% base hp when maxed, or else flat(absolutely no reason it should scale with max HP, makes tanky Rengar absolutely retarded) Make his stealth like Twitch stealth where it takes a few seconds without taking damage to activate, it's an offensive initiation tool, not an escape. Even the ult name "Thrill of the Hunt" is offensive in nature. It's not a retreat tool. When the Garen comparisons come up, Garen doesn't instaclear, he has to walk up to creeps to kill them, and all he has to get out is a mini-ghost and anti-slow. Thats why Garen is bad. And Garen has to be bad otherwise his passive would make him broken. We surely could nerf Rengar's Base stats, scaling, and Q damage and allow him to keep W sustain, thus having a balanced, binary, slightly UP character. OR we could get rid of W heal, and have a character that is relatively simple to balance, save for stealth. Without the heal he needs some different effects on his ferocity-W.
Is that a balance argument, or a "the rest of his kit is like this so W should be too" argument? Rengar without W heal is still easily a top 15 toplane champ.
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On December 06 2012 15:12 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 15:09 cLutZ wrote:On December 06 2012 15:01 Amui wrote:On December 06 2012 14:49 onlywonderboy wrote:On December 06 2012 14:36 Ketara wrote:
I don't think the heal is the problem with Rengar, I think it's Savagery.
He can do such crazy damage while building absolutely no damage items. He can take down towers I think possibly faster than any other champion in the game.
Rengar can be really sustainy if he builds tank items and Spirit Visage, but a lot of champions can do that, and that's fine really. The issue is that he can do that and still kill people.
His ult also gives him a magical free escape if he decides to split push, but if he wasn't doing such crazy damage to towers that wouldn't be so big a deal, and it's his ult that makes his jungling so cool.
I think Savagery is the issue. A lot of other champions build sustain, but they don't get a 15% total health burst heal haha, but yeah, it all works in conjunction. He can heal for that absurd amount and do tons of damage. It's his total kit that makes him too strong. Mostly I think the problem is he's basically impossible to shut down in lane. -free sustain steroid WITHOUT having to ever touch a creep. -instaclear capability that comes with the free sustain/defensive steroid. Those two things alone make him ridiculously hard to shut down in lane even if you're at such an advantage that he won't even try to duel you. You can't let him roam because as with all stealth champions, they are supremely good at ganking for kills even when behind. Then you factor in that he has a ranged snare and requires you to buy a pink just to try to allin him is really fucking dumb. TLDR; nerf the heal at minimum to 15% base hp when maxed, or else flat(absolutely no reason it should scale with max HP, makes tanky Rengar absolutely retarded) Make his stealth like Twitch stealth where it takes a few seconds without taking damage to activate, it's an offensive initiation tool, not an escape. Even the ult name "Thrill of the Hunt" is offensive in nature. It's not a retreat tool. When the Garen comparisons come up, Garen doesn't instaclear, he has to walk up to creeps to kill them, and all he has to get out is a mini-ghost and anti-slow. Thats why Garen is bad. And Garen has to be bad otherwise his passive would make him broken. We surely could nerf Rengar's Base stats, scaling, and Q damage and allow him to keep W sustain, thus having a balanced, binary, slightly UP character. OR we could get rid of W heal, and have a character that is relatively simple to balance, save for stealth. Without the heal he needs some different effects on his ferocity-W.
So damage and resists isn't enough? TBH having ferocity W give like twice as much resists( would already be enough.
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What if you kept the heal but reduced its effectiveness.
What if instead of 15% of max health, it was 15% of missing health.
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On December 06 2012 15:12 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 15:09 cLutZ wrote:On December 06 2012 15:01 Amui wrote:On December 06 2012 14:49 onlywonderboy wrote:On December 06 2012 14:36 Ketara wrote:
I don't think the heal is the problem with Rengar, I think it's Savagery.
He can do such crazy damage while building absolutely no damage items. He can take down towers I think possibly faster than any other champion in the game.
Rengar can be really sustainy if he builds tank items and Spirit Visage, but a lot of champions can do that, and that's fine really. The issue is that he can do that and still kill people.
His ult also gives him a magical free escape if he decides to split push, but if he wasn't doing such crazy damage to towers that wouldn't be so big a deal, and it's his ult that makes his jungling so cool.
I think Savagery is the issue. A lot of other champions build sustain, but they don't get a 15% total health burst heal haha, but yeah, it all works in conjunction. He can heal for that absurd amount and do tons of damage. It's his total kit that makes him too strong. Mostly I think the problem is he's basically impossible to shut down in lane. -free sustain steroid WITHOUT having to ever touch a creep. -instaclear capability that comes with the free sustain/defensive steroid. Those two things alone make him ridiculously hard to shut down in lane even if you're at such an advantage that he won't even try to duel you. You can't let him roam because as with all stealth champions, they are supremely good at ganking for kills even when behind. Then you factor in that he has a ranged snare and requires you to buy a pink just to try to allin him is really fucking dumb. TLDR; nerf the heal at minimum to 15% base hp when maxed, or else flat(absolutely no reason it should scale with max HP, makes tanky Rengar absolutely retarded) Make his stealth like Twitch stealth where it takes a few seconds without taking damage to activate, it's an offensive initiation tool, not an escape. Even the ult name "Thrill of the Hunt" is offensive in nature. It's not a retreat tool. When the Garen comparisons come up, Garen doesn't instaclear, he has to walk up to creeps to kill them, and all he has to get out is a mini-ghost and anti-slow. Thats why Garen is bad. And Garen has to be bad otherwise his passive would make him broken. We surely could nerf Rengar's Base stats, scaling, and Q damage and allow him to keep W sustain, thus having a balanced, binary, slightly UP character. OR we could get rid of W heal, and have a character that is relatively simple to balance, save for stealth. Without the heal he needs some different effects on his ferocity-W.
How about every time then rengar player hits w, the serve stops sending or receiving packets from that client for 3 seconds. Should balance it nicely
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On December 06 2012 15:14 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 15:12 Sufficiency wrote:On December 06 2012 15:09 cLutZ wrote:On December 06 2012 15:01 Amui wrote:On December 06 2012 14:49 onlywonderboy wrote:On December 06 2012 14:36 Ketara wrote:
I don't think the heal is the problem with Rengar, I think it's Savagery.
He can do such crazy damage while building absolutely no damage items. He can take down towers I think possibly faster than any other champion in the game.
Rengar can be really sustainy if he builds tank items and Spirit Visage, but a lot of champions can do that, and that's fine really. The issue is that he can do that and still kill people.
His ult also gives him a magical free escape if he decides to split push, but if he wasn't doing such crazy damage to towers that wouldn't be so big a deal, and it's his ult that makes his jungling so cool.
I think Savagery is the issue. A lot of other champions build sustain, but they don't get a 15% total health burst heal haha, but yeah, it all works in conjunction. He can heal for that absurd amount and do tons of damage. It's his total kit that makes him too strong. Mostly I think the problem is he's basically impossible to shut down in lane. -free sustain steroid WITHOUT having to ever touch a creep. -instaclear capability that comes with the free sustain/defensive steroid. Those two things alone make him ridiculously hard to shut down in lane even if you're at such an advantage that he won't even try to duel you. You can't let him roam because as with all stealth champions, they are supremely good at ganking for kills even when behind. Then you factor in that he has a ranged snare and requires you to buy a pink just to try to allin him is really fucking dumb. TLDR; nerf the heal at minimum to 15% base hp when maxed, or else flat(absolutely no reason it should scale with max HP, makes tanky Rengar absolutely retarded) Make his stealth like Twitch stealth where it takes a few seconds without taking damage to activate, it's an offensive initiation tool, not an escape. Even the ult name "Thrill of the Hunt" is offensive in nature. It's not a retreat tool. When the Garen comparisons come up, Garen doesn't instaclear, he has to walk up to creeps to kill them, and all he has to get out is a mini-ghost and anti-slow. Thats why Garen is bad. And Garen has to be bad otherwise his passive would make him broken. We surely could nerf Rengar's Base stats, scaling, and Q damage and allow him to keep W sustain, thus having a balanced, binary, slightly UP character. OR we could get rid of W heal, and have a character that is relatively simple to balance, save for stealth. Without the heal he needs some different effects on his ferocity-W. Is that a balance argument, or a "the rest of his kit is like this so W should be too" argument? Rengar without W heal is still easily a top 15 toplane champ.
It's a "the rest of his kit is like this" argument, and there is nothing wrong with that. If I was in charge and if I feel the sustain should be removed, I'd change it to reduce damage taken by x% for y seconds.
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On December 06 2012 14:35 NeoIllusions wrote:
Twin Shadows Taric sup?
Always stun, never not stun.
just stun? twin shadows nautilus is where it's at, never miss a hook, ult people in bushes, use your own slow once the active wears off, then root them with your auto attacks just because you can.
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It needs to heal for a very low amount and only heal with its 5 stacks and deals damage to a champion.
15% heal for hitting nothing on a manaless champion that naturally builds tank is just moronic.
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With the S3 changes in mind, I tried an experiment today. 0-9-21 ADC with Long Sword + pots start items; GP/10 Quints; GP/10, extra 50g, Pickpocket and MS masteries. I was swimming in gold mid-game without any notable difficulties early, I'm seriously considering running this on a regular basis..
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On December 06 2012 15:17 Ketara wrote:
What if you kept the heal but reduced its effectiveness.
What if instead of 15% of max health, it was 15% of missing health.
You can always nerf something enough to make it balanced. The point is that you don't want things to be balanced on the blade of a knife. Maybe in your scenario Rengar is a fine champ when not building SV, but is OP with it, then you have yet another champ that has a fixed build order. Then maybe they nerf SV because of Rango, or maybe they balance based around the assumption of him having SV, so then he sucks without it.
Best just to remove heal and let his kit evolve with only 2 hard to balance features (stealth, manaless) instead of 3.
On December 06 2012 15:20 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 15:14 cLutZ wrote:On December 06 2012 15:12 Sufficiency wrote:On December 06 2012 15:09 cLutZ wrote:On December 06 2012 15:01 Amui wrote:On December 06 2012 14:49 onlywonderboy wrote:On December 06 2012 14:36 Ketara wrote:
I don't think the heal is the problem with Rengar, I think it's Savagery.
He can do such crazy damage while building absolutely no damage items. He can take down towers I think possibly faster than any other champion in the game.
Rengar can be really sustainy if he builds tank items and Spirit Visage, but a lot of champions can do that, and that's fine really. The issue is that he can do that and still kill people.
His ult also gives him a magical free escape if he decides to split push, but if he wasn't doing such crazy damage to towers that wouldn't be so big a deal, and it's his ult that makes his jungling so cool.
I think Savagery is the issue. A lot of other champions build sustain, but they don't get a 15% total health burst heal haha, but yeah, it all works in conjunction. He can heal for that absurd amount and do tons of damage. It's his total kit that makes him too strong. Mostly I think the problem is he's basically impossible to shut down in lane. -free sustain steroid WITHOUT having to ever touch a creep. -instaclear capability that comes with the free sustain/defensive steroid. Those two things alone make him ridiculously hard to shut down in lane even if you're at such an advantage that he won't even try to duel you. You can't let him roam because as with all stealth champions, they are supremely good at ganking for kills even when behind. Then you factor in that he has a ranged snare and requires you to buy a pink just to try to allin him is really fucking dumb. TLDR; nerf the heal at minimum to 15% base hp when maxed, or else flat(absolutely no reason it should scale with max HP, makes tanky Rengar absolutely retarded) Make his stealth like Twitch stealth where it takes a few seconds without taking damage to activate, it's an offensive initiation tool, not an escape. Even the ult name "Thrill of the Hunt" is offensive in nature. It's not a retreat tool. When the Garen comparisons come up, Garen doesn't instaclear, he has to walk up to creeps to kill them, and all he has to get out is a mini-ghost and anti-slow. Thats why Garen is bad. And Garen has to be bad otherwise his passive would make him broken. We surely could nerf Rengar's Base stats, scaling, and Q damage and allow him to keep W sustain, thus having a balanced, binary, slightly UP character. OR we could get rid of W heal, and have a character that is relatively simple to balance, save for stealth. Without the heal he needs some different effects on his ferocity-W. Is that a balance argument, or a "the rest of his kit is like this so W should be too" argument? Rengar without W heal is still easily a top 15 toplane champ. It's a "the rest of his kit is like this" argument, and there is nothing wrong with that. If I was in charge and if I feel the sustain should be removed, I'd change it to reduce damage taken by x% for y seconds.
That's fine. I would say your idea as a change is not a bad one. Perhaps a MS bonus so he could disengage after using his combo also would work.
On December 06 2012 15:28 Craton wrote:
Riot: "Soraka's anti-fun because she can heal and sustain so well. Sona heals too efficiently. Have a 0 resource 15% heal instead."
Derp.
Morello also constantly rails against Vlad's sustain. Haha.
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Riot: "Soraka's anti-fun because she can heal and sustain so well. Sona heals too efficiently. Have a 0 resource 15% heal instead."
Derp.
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It's only anti-fun if the person isn't facerolling. So Rengar is perfectly legit!
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On December 06 2012 15:01 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 14:42 PrinceXizor wrote:
Why does riven have the best laning stats of any character? Kind of ridiculous.
Base 2 HP/sec Regen with + .2 hp/sec per level.
Gets Scaling Mres
345 MS
AND manaless? dumb. She has no kit based sustain and had to do a shitty BT rush in S2. Most melees get scaling MR. Every champion got a 25MS buff with the S3 patch. She also is hurt by armor hard.
She has fiora's passive built into her base stats.
and she has a shield and 4 dashes. she has survivability.
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EPT
