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On November 13 2012 08:12 TheYango wrote:
And as I said, having Ghost be strong doesn't fix Flash--it just makes everyone run both.
Need disables that make you unable to cast flash but can spells and other summoners. That would fix it 
Seriously though, it's so odd balance wise, because flash incentivizes all kinds of cool plays. I honestly think the game would be less fun/enjoyable without the clutch flashes.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 13 2012 08:10 Slusher wrote:
they should just move flash to an item like they did with promote afraid of being dota3 I guess.
That doesn't actually solve any of the actual problems with Flash in the context of LoL at all, and potentially introduces new ones.
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On November 13 2012 08:04 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 08:01 gtrsrs wrote:On November 13 2012 08:00 Doctorbeat wrote:On November 13 2012 07:57 Requizen wrote:On November 13 2012 07:54 Dusty wrote:
I kind of like the Ignite CD nerf, it definitely has too low of a cooldown. Highly disagree with the Flash CD nerf... Didn't they already nerf Flash once? I guess they really really want to encourage other summoners, 10 Flash games too boring. Except ghost is only viable on champions that will stay alive in the middle of a teamfight (bruiser/tank) and have ms modifiers to boost the summoner even more. Flash is too good on squishies to give up. Positioning is key in a teamfight, and the other carries having flash and you don't makes the difference between winning and losing. All of the other summoners aren't good enough to replace flash. You could maybe cheese a lane by having your carry take two offensive summoners, but you won't be winning later on. hence why they're nerfing it, so it's not a mandatory summoner, which is exactly what req was saying I think his point is it's not going to matter. Even if they nerf the cooldown people are still going to take it because the utility it offers is still too good.
That's a silly point to make. If flash had a 20 minute cooldown no one would ever use it. Therefore there's always a cooldown at which other summoners are comparable in strength.
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The problem with Flash having a 20 minute cooldown (lols) is that it would still be too good, it would just be a matter of it being too good when it's up and then down forever.
There are a lot of champions where if your flash is down and you get ambushed, you can't get away. Increasing the cooldown will make people more conservative with when they use it maybe, but they will still have to take it as long as the cooldown is reasonable (not 20 minutes)
There might be a few more champs where flash vs ghost or exhaust is an argument, but there is a large number that just HAVE to have Flash.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 13 2012 08:17 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 08:04 onlywonderboy wrote:On November 13 2012 08:01 gtrsrs wrote:On November 13 2012 08:00 Doctorbeat wrote:On November 13 2012 07:57 Requizen wrote:On November 13 2012 07:54 Dusty wrote:
I kind of like the Ignite CD nerf, it definitely has too low of a cooldown. Highly disagree with the Flash CD nerf... Didn't they already nerf Flash once? I guess they really really want to encourage other summoners, 10 Flash games too boring. Except ghost is only viable on champions that will stay alive in the middle of a teamfight (bruiser/tank) and have ms modifiers to boost the summoner even more. Flash is too good on squishies to give up. Positioning is key in a teamfight, and the other carries having flash and you don't makes the difference between winning and losing. All of the other summoners aren't good enough to replace flash. You could maybe cheese a lane by having your carry take two offensive summoners, but you won't be winning later on. hence why they're nerfing it, so it's not a mandatory summoner, which is exactly what req was saying I think his point is it's not going to matter. Even if they nerf the cooldown people are still going to take it because the utility it offers is still too good. That's a silly point to make. If flash had a 20 minute cooldown no one would ever use it. Therefore there's always a cooldown at which other summoners are comparable in strength.
You're assuming that the power/practicality of a skill follows a continuous curve, which is not necessarily the case.
I've already raised examples in the genre (Revive in LoL, Refresher Orb in DotA) where trying to balance an ability that's far too powerful with an extremely long CD doesn't actually make you pass a point where it's "balanced".
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My favorite Flash fix would be to just give it to everybody and let them pick two other summoners so they have 3. If something is so important that everybody has to take it, they should just take the choice away and give it to everybody.
Buuuuut that would probably create all sorts of champ balance issues.
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United States47024 Posts
I mean part of the reason that it's "so important that everyone has to take it" is that Riot has, intentionally or unintentionally, balanced the game AROUND everyone having it. For example the whole lane aggression/jungle aggression dynamic (safer lanes lets laners play more aggressive but disincentivizes ganks so junglers play more passive//riskier lanes force laners to play more passively but incentivizes ganks because it's more likely for junglers to get kills) is entirely balanced around Flash giving laners a modicum of safety for the first time they are ganked. Given that Riot already feels that the game is too shifted toward camping and jungler aggression, removing or significantly weakening Flash would push this dynamic in the opposite direction of where Riot wants it to go.
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I feel like flash has been "op" so long that it has become part of the fabric of the game. At this point I don't think they could fix it without ripping the game apart and then putting it back together, but i also don't think it is something that needs to be fixed.
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United States47024 Posts
That's the thing. If they really want to make Flash more of an option and not a requirement, they need to gut the skill, and totally re-evaluate what it does, what parts of it they want to keep, etc. These small CD nerfs don't really accomplish anything.
Seeing as the pre-S3 changes are already aimed at tearing down and revamping large parts of the game, they may as well put Flash in the mix as well if they really are intent on changing it.
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On November 13 2012 08:04 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 07:57 Requizen wrote:On November 13 2012 07:54 Dusty wrote:
I kind of like the Ignite CD nerf, it definitely has too low of a cooldown. Highly disagree with the Flash CD nerf... Didn't they already nerf Flash once? I guess they really really want to encourage other summoners, 10 Flash games too boring. TBH I think the main inhibiting factor for Ghost right now is the harsh diminishing returns on MS after 495 MS, coupled with how easy it is to actually hit the soft cap with MS quints, masteries, skills, and Shurelya's. 35% MS ends up being way less than advertised because of this in practice. Alternatively, they need to revert the duration nerf on Ghost (back to 15s duration), and bring it back to being a medium-duration mobility skill, rather than a short-burst engagement skill, because as the latter, it's going to be outshined by Flash in almost all cases. Of course, this is sort of irrelevant to Ghost vs. Flash, because by and large, if Ghost is good enough for that, people will run Ghost+Flash, rather than either/or (as was the case prior to the Ghost nerf).
Another factor inhibiting Ghost is the math behind slows. Because slows are applied after all speed boosts are taken into account (but before caps are applied if I recall correctly), they are extremely effective at mitigating speed boosts. Even a bruiser with 330 base movement speed, boots, and a 100% bonus will crawl along at 320 movement speed after a rank 5 Nunu snowball. It's one of the reasons why Ashe was so popular back in the days before gap-closer inflation, most bruisers couldn't either reach or escape her.
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United States47024 Posts
That is a good point. Slows using total MS while MS boosts use base MS heavily favors slows over MS boosts.
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On November 13 2012 08:32 TheYango wrote:
That's the thing. If they really want to make Flash more of an option and not a requirement, they need to gut the skill, and totally re-evaluate what it does, what parts of it they want to keep, etc. These small CD nerfs don't really accomplish anything.
Seeing as the pre-S3 changes are already aimed at tearing down and revamping large parts of the game, they may as well put Flash in the mix as well if they really are intent on changing it.
Do we know what their intentions are with flash? Do they want to get rid of ten flash game, or are they just nerfing it because they are increasing the opportunity cost of ganking so they want to make ganks that just force a flash more punishing.
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Anyone did any last minute trolling to deny people gold?
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On November 13 2012 08:50 HeroHenry wrote:
Anyone did any last minute trolling to deny people gold?
If you go into a game and throw it you are more likely to give someone gold then take it away.
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On November 13 2012 08:50 HeroHenry wrote:
Anyone did any last minute trolling to deny people gold?
Na, just spammed Talon games in normals to learn him better.
First thing I learnt is that people don't know how to analyze team comps and plan their teamfighting accordingly.
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Why would they remove leashing from jungle? Is it because Riot wants to make this game so noob friendly the jungle will be completely destroyed?
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On November 13 2012 08:16 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 08:10 Slusher wrote:
they should just move flash to an item like they did with promote afraid of being dota3 I guess. That doesn't actually solve any of the actual problems with Flash in the context of LoL at all, and potentially introduces new ones.
why is this? moving flash to an item would require you to build that item thus there is an opportunity cost of other items that could be built in place of the item with flash.
On November 13 2012 09:00 MooMooMugi wrote:
Why would they remove leashing from jungle? Is it because Riot wants to make this game so noob friendly the jungle will be completely destroyed?
leashing made it noob friendly, not the other way around
just look back at s1 jungle/pre-s1 jungle
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United States47024 Posts
On November 13 2012 09:02 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 08:16 TheYango wrote:On November 13 2012 08:10 Slusher wrote:
they should just move flash to an item like they did with promote afraid of being dota3 I guess. That doesn't actually solve any of the actual problems with Flash in the context of LoL at all, and potentially introduces new ones. why is this? moving flash to an item would require you to build that item thus there is an opportunity cost of other items that could be built in place of the item with flash.
Because with regard to the early game, it's more or less tantamount to removing/revamping Flash entirely (since you won't have the item yet). And revamping the early lane/jungle dynamics to handle not having Flash at all would require enough effort that you may as well just gut Flash and redo it to begin with.
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Wow. I just experimented the Brand bug for the first time. I was about to solo kill him, two allies show up, he ults, 10 bounces and he gets a double off of full health cho and me. XD
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On November 13 2012 09:00 MooMooMugi wrote:
Why would they remove leashing from jungle? Is it because Riot wants to make this game so noob friendly the jungle will be completely destroyed?
Because jungle leashes end in two ways:
1. You got a good pull!
2. That singed just flipped blue golem over the wall and went to lane, have fun!"
I'd rather be given the ability to just do it myself. If that's noob friendly I welcome it.
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EPT
