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On November 03 2012 04:37 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 04:26 zer0das wrote:
I see more people building Elise with AD bruiser crap (ie, Triforce, Wit's End, etc) than I do AP... which seems pretty horrific because she's not innately tanky and none of her crap scales with AD. It kind of reminds me of when Fizz came out and like every Fizz on my team was building him AD and doing awful, while the one on the enemy team was building him AP and blowing up everyone on our team.
I may be playing too much Twisted Treeline tho (it's still horrible there- AP Elise murders Singed, AD Elise... dies to everything). From what I've read, people seem to think Elise is better as a bruiser than AP because her ratios are bad. The argument why this works despite the lack of AD scaling is she benefits from CDR, has the attack speed buff for her and her spiders, and two moves that deal damage on % of health. I don't know if those arguments are right, but that's what I've seen. It probably just stems from fact people haven't mastered her kit yet.
Why do you need ad scaling to be a bruiser? Couldn't you just go like triforce wits as your offensive items and the rest defense.
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On November 03 2012 04:42 Cuddle wrote:
Anyone know when Harrowing skins expire? I'd prefer not forking our RP for Fiora but I don't have enough IP atm.
I vaguely remember 11th or something. You got plenty of time.
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Nov. 13th is the last day for the Harrowing skins.
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On November 03 2012 03:02 HazMat wrote:This thread moves too fast nowadays 
General SpudDiscussion? Gotta stay hipster and underground.
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On November 03 2012 04:42 Requizen wrote:
So ADC becomes very mechanical about how you position, kite, focusing targets, and moving around correctly. An AD that's out of position is generally more screwed than any other role. This varies from Kog (no CC or dash) all the way up to Ez (dat blink).
This is a total pet peeve I have.
Positioning is not mechanics. It's tactics. Positioning requires a good game sense, which has nothing to do with your mechanical abilities. For an ADC, knowing where to be and who to focus does not require good mechanical ability, it requires a good game sense.
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United States23745 Posts
On November 03 2012 04:43 jadoth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 04:37 onlywonderboy wrote:On November 03 2012 04:26 zer0das wrote:
I see more people building Elise with AD bruiser crap (ie, Triforce, Wit's End, etc) than I do AP... which seems pretty horrific because she's not innately tanky and none of her crap scales with AD. It kind of reminds me of when Fizz came out and like every Fizz on my team was building him AD and doing awful, while the one on the enemy team was building him AP and blowing up everyone on our team.
I may be playing too much Twisted Treeline tho (it's still horrible there- AP Elise murders Singed, AD Elise... dies to everything). From what I've read, people seem to think Elise is better as a bruiser than AP because her ratios are bad. The argument why this works despite the lack of AD scaling is she benefits from CDR, has the attack speed buff for her and her spiders, and two moves that deal damage on % of health. I don't know if those arguments are right, but that's what I've seen. It probably just stems from fact people haven't mastered her kit yet. Why do you need ad scaling to be a bruiser? Couldn't you just go like triforce wits as your offensive items and the rest defense.
I don't think they have to, but the person I was replying to mentioned the lack of AD scaling as a negative on her. What I don't know is if her kit allows her to output sufficient damage to be strong with only a Triforce.
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On November 03 2012 04:51 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 04:42 Requizen wrote:
So ADC becomes very mechanical about how you position, kite, focusing targets, and moving around correctly. An AD that's out of position is generally more screwed than any other role. This varies from Kog (no CC or dash) all the way up to Ez (dat blink). This is a total pet peeve I have. Positioning is not mechanics. It's tactics. Positioning requires a good game sense, which has nothing to do with your mechanical abilities. For an ADC, knowing where to be and who to focus does not require good mechanical ability, it requires a good game sense.
I never said it was difficult mechanics, but clicking efficiently (as in, not spamming for APM but actually clicking the right place as fast as possible) is indeed a mechanic. The difference between making your character position within auto range (but out of CC range) and way too far back (out of auto range and therefore not doing anything) is huge, even if it's for 2 seconds.
Positioning has and requires both decision making and mechanics, like placing Siege Tanks in the right position. It's not hard, but there is a noticeable skill jump when you can do it in 1 second with a single mouse click as opposed to 5 seconds with multiple.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 03 2012 04:51 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 04:42 Requizen wrote:
So ADC becomes very mechanical about how you position, kite, focusing targets, and moving around correctly. An AD that's out of position is generally more screwed than any other role. This varies from Kog (no CC or dash) all the way up to Ez (dat blink). This is a total pet peeve I have. Positioning is not mechanics. It's tactics. Positioning requires a good game sense, which has nothing to do with your mechanical abilities. For an ADC, knowing where to be and who to focus does not require good mechanical ability, it requires a good game sense.
In the MOBA community, the term "mechanics" is sometimes corrupted somewhat to refer to familiarity with the mechanics of the game rather than just physical/muscle memory-based ability (which isn't relevant for a whole lot in the game to begin with). Positioning isn't really "game sense" in the sense that it requires that you have some certain idea of the gameflow and whatnot, but rather "game knowledge" in knowing the comparative spell ranges and engagement ability of the various champions in the game.
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But game knowledge is NOT mechanics. You don't need to have good hand eye coordination or high APM to know what another champions spell ranges are. That's the point.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 03 2012 05:00 Ketara wrote:
But game knowledge is NOT mechanics. You don't need to have good hand eye coordination or high APM to know what another champions spell ranges are. That's the point.
It's "mechanics" when you corrupt the definition of "mechanics" to mean "knowledge of the game's mechanics" rather than "mechanical skill". Which is a corruption in terminology that isn't actually all that uncommon among the various MOBA communities.
The broader, safer term (which I've become accustomed to using instead as it doesn't really cause confusion to anyone) is to call it "fundamentals".
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Fundamentals is a good term. Should be used more.
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Baa?21247 Posts
On November 03 2012 02:31 Numy wrote:At least it's just your twitch. Come 7ish PM I warp around in LoL, nothing else lags. So I can only LoL during the day Also yesterday I noticed something really interesting on WoDx stream. At around 3 minutes he got ganked and killed. He was really surprised at this and said something along the lines of "wow that was a fast gankg, he must have ran straight here. However I watched Locos stream the other day where around 3 minutes he said something like "I need to be careful for gank now as juggler would be finished his path by now and looking for gank top". Just found it interesting a non-top seems to know jungle paths more than an actual top.
it's cause wings is actually a really awful player who tries to give the semblance of a good player explaining in depth strategies
so whenever he dies to something completely avoidable he acts all surprised and pretends its some deep strategy he must study at length later when really he just blows l0l
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On November 03 2012 04:59 TheYango wrote:
In the MOBA community, the term "mechanics" is sometimes corrupted somewhat to refer to familiarity with the mechanics of the game rather than just physical/muscle memory-based ability (which isn't relevant for a whole lot in the game to begin with). Positioning isn't really "game sense" in the sense that it requires that you have some certain idea of the gameflow and whatnot, but rather "game knowledge" in knowing the comparative spell ranges and engagement ability of the various champions in the game.
maybe it's just me but i've hardly ever heard people from DotA use the term "mechanics."
but i dunno, i think terms like "positioning" and "mechanics" are really just these vague terms that everyone uses and loosely understands, but they aren't really clearly defined and everyone has their own definition.
it reminds me of people saying to work on your "fundamentals" in basketball. or fighting games.
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On November 03 2012 05:00 Ketara wrote:
But game knowledge is NOT mechanics. You don't need to have good hand eye coordination or high APM to know what another champions spell ranges are. That's the point.
Mechanics come in to play when using that knowledge though. Knowing ranges and where you should position yourself means nothing at all if you can't put your character there in a timely manner without wasting movements or actions.
As a separate example, I could tell you numerically the effective ranges of about half the guns in most of the Halo games. But skirting that edge, using the range to my advantage, and consistently landing shots at max range, even with guns that I intrinsically knew the data values of, was something I was never as good at as other people who were better at utilizing the knowledge.
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Positioning your army in sc is comparable to positioning as a TEAM in LoL, which is a tactic/strategy. Like putting siege tanks at a specific choke point can be comparable to having your team bait baron in a specific choke. This is a tactic/strategy.
However, positioning yourself (as in how you move around the fight) and kiting around like an AD carry would is comparable to microing an m&m ball in sc, and that's part of your mechanics.
An AD's position behind tanks is a tactic. The movement of an AD to kite around and focus fire is microing and thus mechanics though. A terren stimming and surrounding lurkers to kill them quickly is a strategy, but the act of stimming, spreading them out, and focusing the lutkers is micro and part of your mechanics.
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Having good mechanics certainly helps you get your character to where they need to be in an efficient way, but even if you had the best mechanical skill in the world, that wouldn't matter if you didn't know where your character needed to be.
You are not wrong, you are just using the definitions incorrectly, that's all I'm saying.
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Positioning is not mechanics. Efficient kiting is.
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On November 03 2012 05:10 Ketara wrote:
Having good mechanics certainly helps you get your character to where they need to be in an efficient way, but even if you had the best mechanical skill in the world, that wouldn't matter if you didn't know where your character needed to be.
You are not wrong, you are just using the definitions incorrectly, that's all I'm saying.
I'm not disagreeing with you. I never said sharp mechanics would overcome lack of knowledge, but you need both. To the flipside of your statement: If you have the 100% knowledge of the game, it doesn't mean anything if you can't utilize it correctly.
If two teams are facing off, the AD that gets in position fastest and most efficiently (as in, not accidentally clicking somewhere where they'd be vulnerable, or stopping to shoot when it's not safe), is going to be the most useful to their team. This is not a difficult mechanic, but it is a necessary one. I would greatly agree with the word "fundamental".
To carry on with the MM stim ball example, good "fundamental mechanics" allow you to move and shoot correctly, but if you have bad "fundamental mechanics", even if you know the duration of stim and range/speed of Marines, you can't lane every shot and there will be wasted time while moving/standing.
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Holy crap, I remember when WoDx only use to only have like 4k viewers O.o, right now he has 18.6k viewers. Only took him like a half month of regular amount of streaming. I guess people really like his commentary.
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On November 03 2012 05:11 Sufficiency wrote:
Positioning is not mechanics. Efficient kiting is.
Almost as exciting as SK Terran. Almost.
On a sidenote, were there even foreign terrans who could pull off SK Terran? I remember HoRRoR practicing the shit out of it back when I was with him in mTw, but with the rise of Fantasy's mech builds he dropped it in favor for the mechanically easier strategy... Rets midgame TvZ was hella scary though. Probably the closest anyone outside of Korea ever came?
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EPT
