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On November 02 2012 15:38 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 15:31 MooMooMugi wrote:
For your Viktor R calculations are you using the full duration of the ultimate damage? Yeah, but it auto follows. Even if you use just initial burst he identical to Zyra and annie... But like I said it auto follows. Level 5 Q (260+0.6AP)+Level 5 E (325+0.91 AP)+Level 2 R (250+0.55)= 835+2.06 AP I've never said to myself "Awe damn, if only I didn't get zero ticks of my ultimate off during that fight..." It's the same as counting full ignite damage as burst, once it cast, all that damage going to happen.
If you can allow Viktor to "burst" his full duration of his ultimate, I think you should also allow Annie to burst in the full duration of hers. It's 45 seconds and she does 30*45 = 1350 plus 9 AP ratio. This didn't even factor in Tibber's auto.
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11589 Posts
It's different in the sense that someone can retaliate during that time or be healed. DoT =/= burst. Burst is good because it is (nearly) instantaneous, and as such is used to kill without any possibility of reaction. 7 seconds of damage is not burst.
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Tibbers basically always gets at least 1 auto off + 1 aoe burn damage, and annie can get 1-2 autos off during the stun due to her gay range. Good annies normally abuse her auto range a lot which adds a lot to her burst. Your calculations are like not adding on lux's autos + passive procs to her burst when it's a major part of her kit. Additionally it's dependant on if viktor has his death augment or not, as the e buff with it is a ton of extra damage.
But yeah viktors burst is pretty gay. :<
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On November 02 2012 15:45 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 15:38 iCanada wrote:On November 02 2012 15:31 MooMooMugi wrote:
For your Viktor R calculations are you using the full duration of the ultimate damage? Yeah, but it auto follows. Even if you use just initial burst he identical to Zyra and annie... But like I said it auto follows. Level 5 Q (260+0.6AP)+Level 5 E (325+0.91 AP)+Level 2 R (250+0.55)= 835+2.06 AP I've never said to myself "Awe damn, if only I didn't get zero ticks of my ultimate off during that fight..." It's the same as counting full ignite damage as burst, once it cast, all that damage going to happen. If you can allow Viktor to "burst" his full duration of his ultimate, I think you should also allow Annie to burst in the full duration of hers. It's 45 seconds and she does 30*45 = 1350 plus 9 AP ratio.
Thats different though, Tibbers doesn't auto follow, and once he gets 1200 away from Annie he teleports to her, and he moves really slow (350) where as Viktor's Chaos Storm moves faster than the average champ in boots 2.
One of these champions never gets the full ultimate off, the other always does.
I agree they not 100% accurate, but play the champion, he is really bursty.
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On November 02 2012 15:51 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 15:45 Sufficiency wrote:On November 02 2012 15:38 iCanada wrote:On November 02 2012 15:31 MooMooMugi wrote:
For your Viktor R calculations are you using the full duration of the ultimate damage? Yeah, but it auto follows. Even if you use just initial burst he identical to Zyra and annie... But like I said it auto follows. Level 5 Q (260+0.6AP)+Level 5 E (325+0.91 AP)+Level 2 R (250+0.55)= 835+2.06 AP I've never said to myself "Awe damn, if only I didn't get zero ticks of my ultimate off during that fight..." It's the same as counting full ignite damage as burst, once it cast, all that damage going to happen. If you can allow Viktor to "burst" his full duration of his ultimate, I think you should also allow Annie to burst in the full duration of hers. It's 45 seconds and she does 30*45 = 1350 plus 9 AP ratio. Thats different though, Tibbers doesn't auto follow, and once he gets 1200 away from Annie he teleports to her, and he moves really slow (350) where as Viktor's Chaos Storm moves faster than the average champ in boots 2. One of these champions never gets the full ultimate off, the other always does. I agree they not 100% accurate, but play the champion, he is really bursty.
Even if we assume, for the moment, that he can actually keep up his ultimate for the full 7 seconds (big if, considering he cannot control it if he dies), I will argue that Karthus, Cassiopeia, and Vladimir have the highest "burst" because they can easily do more way damage than Viktor in those 7 seconds if they can keep up.
Are Karthus, Cassiopeia, and Vladimir bursty?
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On November 02 2012 15:51 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 15:45 Sufficiency wrote:On November 02 2012 15:38 iCanada wrote:On November 02 2012 15:31 MooMooMugi wrote:
For your Viktor R calculations are you using the full duration of the ultimate damage? Yeah, but it auto follows. Even if you use just initial burst he identical to Zyra and annie... But like I said it auto follows. Level 5 Q (260+0.6AP)+Level 5 E (325+0.91 AP)+Level 2 R (250+0.55)= 835+2.06 AP I've never said to myself "Awe damn, if only I didn't get zero ticks of my ultimate off during that fight..." It's the same as counting full ignite damage as burst, once it cast, all that damage going to happen. If you can allow Viktor to "burst" his full duration of his ultimate, I think you should also allow Annie to burst in the full duration of hers. It's 45 seconds and she does 30*45 = 1350 plus 9 AP ratio. Thats different though, Tibbers doesn't auto follow, and once he gets 1200 away from Annie he teleports to her, and he moves really slow (350) where as Viktor's Chaos Storm moves faster than the average champ in boots 2. One of these champions never gets the full ultimate off, the other always does. I agree they not 100% accurate, but play the champion, he is really bursty.
But you have to factor in at least 2-3 seconds of tibbers burn and 2 tibbers autos because they will be stunned.
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On November 02 2012 16:05 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 15:51 iCanada wrote:On November 02 2012 15:45 Sufficiency wrote:On November 02 2012 15:38 iCanada wrote:On November 02 2012 15:31 MooMooMugi wrote:
For your Viktor R calculations are you using the full duration of the ultimate damage? Yeah, but it auto follows. Even if you use just initial burst he identical to Zyra and annie... But like I said it auto follows. Level 5 Q (260+0.6AP)+Level 5 E (325+0.91 AP)+Level 2 R (250+0.55)= 835+2.06 AP I've never said to myself "Awe damn, if only I didn't get zero ticks of my ultimate off during that fight..." It's the same as counting full ignite damage as burst, once it cast, all that damage going to happen. If you can allow Viktor to "burst" his full duration of his ultimate, I think you should also allow Annie to burst in the full duration of hers. It's 45 seconds and she does 30*45 = 1350 plus 9 AP ratio. Thats different though, Tibbers doesn't auto follow, and once he gets 1200 away from Annie he teleports to her, and he moves really slow (350) where as Viktor's Chaos Storm moves faster than the average champ in boots 2. One of these champions never gets the full ultimate off, the other always does. I agree they not 100% accurate, but play the champion, he is really bursty. Even if we assume, for the moment, that he can actually keep up his ultimate for the full 7 seconds (big if, considering he cannot control it if he dies), I will argue that Karthus, Cassiopeia, and Vladimir have the highest "burst" because they can easily do more way damage than Viktor in those 7 seconds if they can keep up. Are Karthus, Cassiopeia, and Vladimir bursty?
Can Karthus, Cass, and Vlad do 835 damage instantly? Even if he has ZERO ult ticks he within 15 Damage of Annie and Zyra, two champions considered to have the highest burst in the game. That difference is negligable...
I dont really understand what you are still arguing about... Point is, Viktor can do a ton of damage instantly and straight up disengage without being retaliated upon thanks to the ults silence and his W, thats why I listed whole ult duration in first place. I can't tell you how many times I've just pressed the B key while my ultimate tower dives someone across the lane as viktor. You dont agree with that, and thats fine... however at minimum his burst is identical to champions considered high burst champions.
The calculations not meant to be be all end all of accuracy, just a 5 second ballpark thing.
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On November 02 2012 16:12 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 16:05 Sufficiency wrote:On November 02 2012 15:51 iCanada wrote:On November 02 2012 15:45 Sufficiency wrote:On November 02 2012 15:38 iCanada wrote:On November 02 2012 15:31 MooMooMugi wrote:
For your Viktor R calculations are you using the full duration of the ultimate damage? Yeah, but it auto follows. Even if you use just initial burst he identical to Zyra and annie... But like I said it auto follows. Level 5 Q (260+0.6AP)+Level 5 E (325+0.91 AP)+Level 2 R (250+0.55)= 835+2.06 AP I've never said to myself "Awe damn, if only I didn't get zero ticks of my ultimate off during that fight..." It's the same as counting full ignite damage as burst, once it cast, all that damage going to happen. If you can allow Viktor to "burst" his full duration of his ultimate, I think you should also allow Annie to burst in the full duration of hers. It's 45 seconds and she does 30*45 = 1350 plus 9 AP ratio. Thats different though, Tibbers doesn't auto follow, and once he gets 1200 away from Annie he teleports to her, and he moves really slow (350) where as Viktor's Chaos Storm moves faster than the average champ in boots 2. One of these champions never gets the full ultimate off, the other always does. I agree they not 100% accurate, but play the champion, he is really bursty. Even if we assume, for the moment, that he can actually keep up his ultimate for the full 7 seconds (big if, considering he cannot control it if he dies), I will argue that Karthus, Cassiopeia, and Vladimir have the highest "burst" because they can easily do more way damage than Viktor in those 7 seconds if they can keep up. Are Karthus, Cassiopeia, and Vladimir bursty? Can Karthus, Cass, and Vlad do 835 damage instantly? Even if he has ZERO ult ticks he within 15 Damage of Annie and Zyra, two champions considered to have the highest burst in the game. That difference is negligable... I dont really understand what you are still arguing about... Point is, Viktor can do a ton of damage instantly and straight up disengage without being retaliated upon thanks to the ults silence and his W, thats why I listed whole ult duration in first place. I can't tell you how many times I've just pressed the B key while my ultimate tower dives someone across the lane as viktor. You dont agree with that, and thats fine... however at minimum his burst is identical to champions considered high burst champions.
Your calculations are wrong because like many people pointed out already, you factor in 7 seconds DoT as "burst". It's not burst at all. I am simply arguing by reductio ad absurdum - because if a champion can "burst" in 7 seconds, Karthus and Cassiopeia have the best burst for AP champions because they have the highest single target DPS in the game.
Anyway, Viktor's burst is mediocre at best; the initial damage from his ultimate is quite low for an AOE ultimate and the CC is extremely short. He needs to try to survive after he casts his R to do a lot of damage. That's definitely not burst. That's sustained damage. A big part of Viktor's damage from his R is sustained damage.
Don't forget that his Death Augment also provides him with more DoT damage. It's over 3 seconds rather than instant.
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I'm pretty excited at the prospect of an all-energy team.
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On November 02 2012 16:30 Vanka wrote:
I'm pretty excited at the prospect of an all-energy team.
I wonder who gets the blue
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Will be interesting to see how the lane trades for Katarina shifts for level 5 and up. There are a few matchups that really hang in the balance where this nerf might actually hurt.
Give me a Shredder skin for Zed and I'll instabuy. Sometimes I wish Riot had a fuck-all attitude when it comes to brands and copyright bullshit. I need Optimus Blitzcrank, Shredder Zed, Moxxi Caitlyn and Cheetara Nidalee. 
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On November 02 2012 16:37 seRapH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 16:30 Vanka wrote:
I'm pretty excited at the prospect of an all-energy team. I wonder who gets the blue
Akali probably needs blue the most. I swear Riot might as well make Lee Sin manaless instead of Energy based.
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On November 02 2012 16:48 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 16:37 seRapH wrote:On November 02 2012 16:30 Vanka wrote:
I'm pretty excited at the prospect of an all-energy team. I wonder who gets the blue Akali probably needs blue the most. I swear Riot might as well make Lee Sin manaless instead of Energy based.
I dunno, Shen benefits a lot from blue in skirmishes/teamfights since it lets him spam more and taunt more. But if you're fitting into the meta, ad kennen and support shen works best bot lane, where putting blue on him wouldn't be optimal. If we're thinking about double bruiser bot lane though, that opens up a lot of things...
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I want people to keep thinking Viktor's shit. That way he's mine... ALL MINE! But yeah, I seriously don't get why people dislike him. He's got great ranged poke, can defend himself rather well with Gravity field, has good teamfighting utility because of that same field, has a rather insane burst, has a good laneclear.... I don't see many downsides. The one thing that's annoying is losing the extra slot, because it means that very often in the mid to late game you simply dont have the slots for wards.
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On November 02 2012 14:09 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
okay so apparently yorick ghouls are tp-valid targets, but what i didn't know was that they are invisible and remain valid even after expiration.
play yorick, push opponent to turret with big wave. cast multiple ghouls
mid laner tp's in to ghoul as it expires
SURPRISE BUTTSECKS
I did the same thing earlier tonight to a Zyra plant that poofed as I was TP'ing. Was pretty cool, and Graves had no idea wtf hit him.
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On November 02 2012 17:15 Promises wrote:
I want people to keep thinking Viktor's shit. That way he's mine... ALL MINE! But yeah, I seriously don't get why people dislike him. He's got great ranged poke, can defend himself rather well with Gravity field, has good teamfighting utility because of that same field, has a rather insane burst, has a good laneclear.... I don't see many downsides. The one thing that's annoying is losing the extra slot, because it means that very often in the mid to late game you simply dont have the slots for wards.
There are so many champions in the game right now that there are bound to be dozens of champions that can work really well but are under appreciated. You also have to consider that when you're playing a champion that isn't very popular your opponents are not used to facing them.
Beyond the theory craft you have to consider that at least part of the success people might have with champions like Viktor can be partially based on your opponents not having as much experience against a Viktor whereas you very likely have a lot of experience against the common fotm mid laner you're against.
I'm not saying that makes Viktor bad. I think the majority of this community emulates the pros either directly or by copying what other people on solo queue due who were inspired by pro players. Very few people are willing to try something that isn't "standard" because there are less examples for them to emulate. Most of the champions that see pro level play are either relatively easy, relatively safe, or excel at doing one thing better than everyone else (Anivia/Orianna's team fight utility would be a good example).
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what the fuck, why Amumu Q range nerf ( probably remains the same with skillshot changes) but whyyyyyy bluecard nerf.
http://www.surrenderat20.net/2012/11/11-1-pbe-update.html
also funny that salce wishes everyone on the team best of luck for the future, even westrice, but not Saintvicious always thought that they were buddy buddy
Also Zed looks fun as hell, not a stupid, not fun to play one like Shen but actually a ninja with shuriken, shadows and stuff :D NINJAS OP
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On November 02 2012 18:28 AsnSensation wrote:
what the fuck, why Amumu Q range nerf ( probably remains the same with skillshot changes) but whyyyyyy bluecard nerf.
Where is the changelog? What are the usual places when looking for one?
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On November 02 2012 18:28 AsnSensation wrote:
what the fuck, why Amumu Q range nerf ( probably remains the same with skillshot changes) but whyyyyyy bluecard nerf.
Amumu has the highest win rate out of all champions right now.
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EPT
