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Interesting that you bring this up- I was drinking and LANing with friends recently, and we decided to just play a whole bunch of non-meta comps. None of us have any experience with DoTA2, but we have 2 wow glads and 2 wow duelists. I heard about the idea of trilaning from a DotA2 cast, and we gave it a shot.
It was just normals, but the results were surprising. We replicated a common 3s setup from wow arena, RMP, which is a cc-heavy burst comp involving a healer, a lockdown burst melee, and a huge burst mage. We used Soraka to feed the mage infinite mana and sustain the melee- we were able to completely push the standard adc/sup bot out of the lane. During farming, one of the carries would leave to clear or partial clear the jungle so they didn't get gold starved. We ensured that our mid and top had good escapes so that they wouldn't be too weak to ganks, and actually ended up doing really well.
The reason this is relevant is that our melee was able to build almost entirely carry with this setup, and was able to snipe their apc in almost every teamfight.
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Almost anything works in normals (Leona/Jarvan bot, Blitzstar bot, etc)
In a competitive scene, their jungler would probably just take all of your top buffs and also make your top/mid miserable while bot could waveclear/farm at tower long enough that they can take top tower and then push objectives while your team has a skewed farm distribution.
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On October 30 2012 02:01 Crownlol wrote:
Interesting that you bring this up- I was drinking and LANing with friends recently, and we decided to just play a whole bunch of non-meta comps. None of us have any experience with DoTA2, but we have 2 wow glads and 2 wow duelists. I heard about the idea of trilaning from a DotA2 cast, and we gave it a shot.
It was just normals, but the results were surprising. We replicated a common 3s setup from wow arena, RMP, which is a cc-heavy burst comp involving a healer, a lockdown burst melee, and a huge burst mage. We used Soraka to feed the mage infinite mana and sustain the melee- we were able to completely push the standard adc/sup bot out of the lane. During farming, one of the carries would leave to clear or partial clear the jungle so they didn't get gold starved. We ensured that our mid and top had good escapes so that they wouldn't be too weak to ganks, and actually ended up doing really well.
The reason this is relevant is that our melee was able to build almost entirely carry with this setup, and was able to snipe their apc in almost every teamfight.
The thing is that pub games and competitive games are a world apart.
Im not saying its impossible to make a melee ad work but saying that your melee was able to snipe there ap carry all the time feels reall wierd. there is no reason for the ap to go into a vulnerable position since there bruisers can safely walk into the middle of your team (there is no ad hitting them as they come in) and lock down your melee while there ad/ap can stand back and burst down a defenseless melee.
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On October 30 2012 02:08 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 02:01 Crownlol wrote:
Interesting that you bring this up- I was drinking and LANing with friends recently, and we decided to just play a whole bunch of non-meta comps. None of us have any experience with DoTA2, but we have 2 wow glads and 2 wow duelists. I heard about the idea of trilaning from a DotA2 cast, and we gave it a shot.
It was just normals, but the results were surprising. We replicated a common 3s setup from wow arena, RMP, which is a cc-heavy burst comp involving a healer, a lockdown burst melee, and a huge burst mage. We used Soraka to feed the mage infinite mana and sustain the melee- we were able to completely push the standard adc/sup bot out of the lane. During farming, one of the carries would leave to clear or partial clear the jungle so they didn't get gold starved. We ensured that our mid and top had good escapes so that they wouldn't be too weak to ganks, and actually ended up doing really well.
The reason this is relevant is that our melee was able to build almost entirely carry with this setup, and was able to snipe their apc in almost every teamfight. The thing is that pub games and competitive games are a world apart. Im not saying its impossible to make a melee ad work but saying that your melee was able to snipe there ap carry all the time feels reall wierd. there is no reason for the ap to go into a vulnerable position since there bruisers can safely walk into the middle of your team (there is no ad hitting them as they come in) and lock down your melee while there ad/ap can stand back and burst down a defenseless melee.
Not only that, but Soraka is more Pally than Priest. Soraka is the worst possible support for an aggressive lane, because she doesn't do much offensively. Sona/Taric are both better in this regard.
Tri lanes do not work in league because it means you won't have a full-time jungler, and there will be 0 pressure in the other lanes (and the enemy jungler can take your jungle/buffs at will). You also lose out on a massive amount of exp. No one in league is so fragile in the early game that requires being babysat in a tri-lane to farm.
Ranged ADs are used because they provide the best scaling damage in the game, and are much easier to keep alive while doing damage than melee carries. As people have said, melee carries cannot build full damage because they'll die to random AOE and bruisers/casters/ranged AD's too easily. That's why melee in the game build tanky/bruiser, build GA (e.g. Irelia), or has inherent abilities that extend their life that allow you to build a little less tanky (Trynd's ult and Riven's E, for example - but Riven still needs something like GA).
Again, anything can work in lower elos and pre-30, and it's great that you had fun doing that. But it's not advice anyone above 1400 would give.
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Pretty sure there's gonna be changes in S3 to make melee carries more viable. Especially considering that Fiora is still a pretty recent addition which hints to me that Riot still wants to make melee carries work, also important to consider that Master Yi is a favorite among several of the veterans at Riot so I'm sure they want melee carries to be viable in more than just pub play.
But alongside itemization I am fully expecting and hoping for nerfs to Exhaust. Honestly I'd be okay with them removing Exhaust because that spell is terribly designed and incredibly stupid. Flash no where near as OP as Exhaust. Removal or heavy nerfs to Exhaust would dramatically increase the power of melee carries in team fights and would shore up options for supports other than "Exhaust/Flash every game no exceptions."
The real question for me is if Riot ever does make changes to make melee carries more viable if they'll even work. I think the most likely scenario is for them to be made slightly more viable but still never be used or make them OP as shit and we start seeing Yi, Trynd, Fiora, Xin Zhao in every single game. Imo Riot has a hard time balancing things to be middle of the road if they're UP or OP.
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On October 30 2012 02:01 Crownlol wrote:
Interesting that you bring this up- I was drinking and LANing with friends recently, and we decided to just play a whole bunch of non-meta comps. None of us have any experience with DoTA2, but we have 2 wow glads and 2 wow duelists. I heard about the idea of trilaning from a DotA2 cast, and we gave it a shot.
It was just normals, but the results were surprising. We replicated a common 3s setup from wow arena, RMP, which is a cc-heavy burst comp involving a healer, a lockdown burst melee, and a huge burst mage. We used Soraka to feed the mage infinite mana and sustain the melee- we were able to completely push the standard adc/sup bot out of the lane. During farming, one of the carries would leave to clear or partial clear the jungle so they didn't get gold starved. We ensured that our mid and top had good escapes so that they wouldn't be too weak to ganks, and actually ended up doing really well.
The reason this is relevant is that our melee was able to build almost entirely carry with this setup, and was able to snipe their apc in almost every teamfight.
If you do this in ranked you will get crushed because you are losing so much exp. One thing I like to do when a jungler comes to gank and I know he's there is to pretend like I don't know he's there (I never understand people who do skill shots into the bush as a big "F U I know you're there"). If he sticks around for a bit, it won't be too long before he's 1 or 2 levels behind, (not to mention their adc/support). And also losing buffs. And letting other lanes push. If you're doing 3v2 in one lane, you're letting your team do 2v3 everywhere else on the map. There's a good reason why the existing meta exists, although I do agree it's boring.
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If they make the armor pen changes (changing it to apply % pen first, then flat pen) then melee carries will be bananas. Everyone will just build brutalizer->LW->GA and deal true damage to everyone in the game.
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It's a balance philosophy that I find utterly ridiculous. You can't have everything be just as viable as everything else. That simply isn't possible, especially with this many champions. There will always be a top meta that stomps most of the older ones and a few cheeses that work catching them off guard.
You can't make hydra/queen as viable as lurkerling vT. You can't make scout/speedlot as viable as dt/sair vZ. It's ridiculous to try and make niche champions as mainstream as everything else without turning every champion in the game into a generic blob.
On October 30 2012 02:27 Sandster wrote:
If they make the armor pen changes (changing it to apply % pen first, then flat pen) then melee carries will be bananas. Everyone will just build brutalizer->LW->GA and deal true damage to everyone in the game.
We'll see a lot more arpen builds on bruisers and melee ads, but that's not going to replace ranged ads.
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On October 30 2012 02:08 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 02:01 Crownlol wrote:
Interesting that you bring this up- I was drinking and LANing with friends recently, and we decided to just play a whole bunch of non-meta comps. None of us have any experience with DoTA2, but we have 2 wow glads and 2 wow duelists. I heard about the idea of trilaning from a DotA2 cast, and we gave it a shot.
It was just normals, but the results were surprising. We replicated a common 3s setup from wow arena, RMP, which is a cc-heavy burst comp involving a healer, a lockdown burst melee, and a huge burst mage. We used Soraka to feed the mage infinite mana and sustain the melee- we were able to completely push the standard adc/sup bot out of the lane. During farming, one of the carries would leave to clear or partial clear the jungle so they didn't get gold starved. We ensured that our mid and top had good escapes so that they wouldn't be too weak to ganks, and actually ended up doing really well.
The reason this is relevant is that our melee was able to build almost entirely carry with this setup, and was able to snipe their apc in almost every teamfight. The thing is that pub games and competitive games are a world apart. Im not saying its impossible to make a melee ad work but saying that your melee was able to snipe there ap carry all the time feels reall wierd. there is no reason for the ap to go into a vulnerable position since there bruisers can safely walk into the middle of your team (there is no ad hitting them as they come in) and lock down your melee while there ad/ap can stand back and burst down a defenseless melee.
I'm not disagreeing, but it was an interesting game. Their bruisers were definitely the biggest hurdle. We were able to close the game out pretty early tho, and it never got to real late game.
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lol oh god, my TF could make T_D look like a good player.
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On October 30 2012 02:31 seRapH wrote:
It's a balance philosophy that I find utterly ridiculous. You can't have everything be just as viable as everything else. That simply isn't possible, especially with this many champions. There will always be a top meta that stomps most of the older ones and a few cheeses that work catching them off guard.
You can't make hydra/queen as viable as lurkerling vT. You can't make scout/speedlot as viable as dt/sair vZ. It's ridiculous to try and make niche champions as mainstream as everything else without turning every champion in the game into a generic blob.
the problem is when niche champs aren't even viable in their niche. name a certain situation where you would rather have a fiora or yi, over a regular pick? Those niche's don't even exist for them.
We'll see a lot more arpen builds on bruisers and melee ads, but that's not going to replace ranged ads.
I don't think that was the point of the arpen change... it was just to make lategame bruisers do more damage against semi-squishies, not necessarily turn them into melee ad carries...
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There were quite a few metabreaker comps in the Korean IPL5 qualifiers if anyone watched, including a 4AP/Tank game (I think it was NJS...they won).
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On October 30 2012 02:31 seRapH wrote:
It's a balance philosophy that I find utterly ridiculous. You can't have everything be just as viable as everything else. That simply isn't possible, especially with this many champions. There will always be a top meta that stomps most of the older ones and a few cheeses that work catching them off guard.
You can't make hydra/queen as viable as lurkerling vT. You can't make scout/speedlot as viable as dt/sair vZ. It's ridiculous to try and make niche champions as mainstream as everything else without turning every champion in the game into a generic blob.
I wasn't aware that an entire category of champions is considered a niche. I'm not saying that Fiora, Yi, Trynd, Xin Zhao, and every other melee carry has to be 100% viable. But at least some of them should be. Not every AP mid is viable but at least some of them are. Not every bruiser is viable or jungler but some of them are.
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On October 30 2012 02:40 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 02:31 seRapH wrote:
It's a balance philosophy that I find utterly ridiculous. You can't have everything be just as viable as everything else. That simply isn't possible, especially with this many champions. There will always be a top meta that stomps most of the older ones and a few cheeses that work catching them off guard.
You can't make hydra/queen as viable as lurkerling vT. You can't make scout/speedlot as viable as dt/sair vZ. It's ridiculous to try and make niche champions as mainstream as everything else without turning every champion in the game into a generic blob. I wasn't aware that an entire category of champions is considered a niche. I'm not saying that Fiora, Yi, Trynd, Xin Zhao, and every other melee carry has to be 100% viable. But at least some of them should be. Not every AP mid is viable but at least some of them are. Not every bruiser is viable or jungler but some of them are.
Xin is used a lot now, except he's built tanky.
Trynd isn't used because he gets stomped in lane by a lot of the newer top laners (Darius, Jayce, etc), and he doesn't get enough farm in the jungle, but he used to see play. Had to be nerfed.
Riven was built glass cannon for a while because her shield scales off AD, complemented with some resists (like GA). But competitively she was also built tanky, going phage/hexdrinker type builds.
Fiora and Yi...yeah, don't remember the last time they were used competitively.
Talon loses to pretty much every top laner, but does decent mid vs a lot of AP. But he's an incredibly niche pick and can be countered. GP *can* be built glass cannon and parlay for huge damage, but he's way better tanky and able to actually go in and melee.
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Well I think everyone enjoys seeing a greater versatility of heroes, but I think there are a few things at play that stops that from happening. Bias is a big one, certain champions are popular, and some were deemed bad at some point, and it seems that those judgements are very rarely revisisted. It takes someone to do well with a champ in a progame before the other teams might pick that up (see for instance Shyvana or more recently Lux). There's obviously the set of tools a champion has. Champions like Oriana/Karthus/Anivia offer a lot of utility/map presence to the team, then there's some assasin champions that can burst down carries well, and some tankyer AP's for a more constant flow of damage. If you don't excell at one of these fields you basically don't have much to show for. Comp-independancy is probably a thing aswell. Certain champions sort of need to have a composition built around them, and as such are harder to place then champs like Oriana who will pretty much always work.
Still, I wouldnt mind seeing a tournament where the, lets say 30 or 40 most common tourney-picks were all banned, who knows we might see some fun games and plays =)
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One thing to improve melee carry viability is to introduce more slot inefficient but cost efficient melee oriented damage items.
Right now, the meta wants to put all of your farm onto 2 people because 10k worth of items does way more than 50% more damage than 7k worth of items due to how lategame items scaling better in both multiplicative stats and gold-efficiency.
But if you want a game where all the midgame items are dope, and the lategame items are only bought because you ran out of slots, why not just play DotA?
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Xin Zhao is fine, Tryndamere is fine. Jax and Kayle are both strong too.
Melee carries still work very well versus a low-cc comp. They'd work better if either BKB (a severely nerfed version) came into the game or there was simply less cc in the game.
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As far as Bruisers/melee carries go, I still could never understand why some iteration of Sion never really made it off the ground. Yes, the whole "dual spec makes each one weaker than it could be", but he's a fairly innately tanky champ with good built in damage, a point-and-click stun (long one too, would be pretty good for some carries), and a shield. I can understand AP Sion not being decent (shield breaks = less damage), but AD Sion has always felt pretty safe to me, able to survive a lot top between health, shield, and stun/run. Makes for a fairly decent lane phase, and R can be used for pretty good sustain. That said, never played him, so the kit could just not be as good as I'm reading.
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On October 30 2012 02:48 xes wrote:
One thing to improve melee carry viability is to introduce more slot inefficient but cost efficient melee oriented damage items.
Right now, the meta wants to put all of your farm onto 2 people because 10k worth of items does way more than 50% more damage than 7k worth of items due to how lategame items scaling better in both multiplicative stats and gold-efficiency.
But if you want a game where all the midgame items are dope, and the lategame items are only bought because you ran out of slots, why not just play DotA?
Go on...
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I hope none of them become strong picks. They're not even remotely fun to play against.
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EPT
