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On October 29 2012 21:14 Alaric wrote:
The main thing behind current "AD carries" is that they're ranged: try to hit a tower as Fiora and you'll be in range of most of their spells. Cait, Ashe, etc. doesn't have that problem, or much less. It's about the efficiency of the glass cannon build, and the ability to tear towers down from afar.
Can others confirm this? I have the same concept in mind: ad carries are ranged so they can hit towers from a safe distance. makes the most sense for me because melee ad carries like fiora and yi deal way more damage with similar items and in straight up teamfights they tend to do better because they dont have to kite and again deal way more damage. I wonder if there will be some kind of splitpush/skirmish strategy in the future that utilises melee ad carries successfully at a high level of play.
I think there are quite a bunch of melee champions with strong steroids who can win duo lanes as well. I remember I used to play janna + fiora/wukong quite bit in normals (with teut playing fiora) and that lane had alot of strengths. i can imagine this would work with champs who have gapclosers, disengage, strong steroids, sustain or shields?, things like that. fiora, trynd, yi, wukong, panth and similar champions could be used, mb kazix?
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lol @ melee "carries" doing better in teamfights because they "don't have to kite".
The reason the RANGED guys have to kite is because they get focused, you think melees guys have any chance to do damage in that situation?
Melee "carries" just end up having to be built the same as bruisers and played the same way, where you always are looking for an opportunity to kill their squishies, where the carry role tends to focus tanks. The reason is that melee carries focusing tanks are going to be in range of the tanks squishes so they just get focused harder when at least if you focus squishies they have to deal with you can can't free DPS.
I think no ranged AD comps with a bruiser bottom with more brisers/tanks mid top and jungle can probably work if you guise it somehow so they can't just pick mass AoE and cc.
The main issue is that gapclosers are self serving and get countered by CC while CC tends to not gap close or have a lot of range so you need the perfect balance of gap closers and CC that can't get countered out by their teams CC and escape skills. You don't need to be able to kill their AD you just need to create large enough threat zone that they can't do enough damage to win the teamfights if you jump on other people.
Maybe an assassin in that comp would work, they tend to win or lose teamfights before the AD even has a say.
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On October 29 2012 21:30 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 21:14 Alaric wrote:
The main thing behind current "AD carries" is that they're ranged: try to hit a tower as Fiora and you'll be in range of most of their spells. Cait, Ashe, etc. doesn't have that problem, or much less. It's about the efficiency of the glass cannon build, and the ability to tear towers down from afar. Can others confirm this? I have the same concept in mind: ad carries are ranged so they can hit towers from a safe distance. makes the most sense for me because melee ad carries like fiora and yi deal way more damage with similar items and in straight up teamfights they tend to do better because they dont have to kite and again deal way more damage. I wonder if there will be some kind of splitpush/skirmish strategy in the future that utilises melee ad carries successfully at a high level of play. I think there are quite a bunch of melee champions with strong steroids who can win duo lanes as well. I remember I used to play janna + fiora/wukong quite bit in normals (with teut playing fiora) and that lane had alot of strengths. i can imagine this would work with champs who have gapclosers, disengage, strong steroids, sustain or shields?, things like that. fiora, trynd, yi, wukong, panth and similar champions could be used, mb kazix?
Running a non-ranged ad carry forces you to win really fast and early. Yes given equal items non-ranged do more dmg but you are also in the thick of the fighting while dying just as fast. Ranged ad's can stay back and safe meaning there lack of defense is no issue since they should not be getting hit anyway. By forgoing this you become unable to kill bruisers safely and as said you wont be able to push towers. If you walk up to hit a tower lategame as a squishy melee ad you just get bursted down by the enemy team and your team loses the fight under the tower.
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If you can create a large threat zone for an ad carry it's possible to push towers and threaten to dive or something but you probably need a gold advantage and you probably have to split push up to the base towers or something to gain that advantage along with dragons/barons.
Haven't seen anything like it done since dignitas burst on the scene using subs bot lane so they had no ad carry/suport they just ran gangplank maokai and galio/ryze/udyr or something.
It also depends on if your bot lane can shut down their ADs farm. I think theres a lot of rooms for a strategy like this but it would take a lot of refinement and more importantly it would shut out your AD carry from his normal role. I think I saw Chaox play jax bottom actually once.
An example comp might be something like
nasus/karthus/udyr/wukong/leona
The idea is to create enough diving threats while still having a huge amount of general AoE damage and CC (karthus wall+nasus slow and karthus AoE +wukong AoE, creates the question of who to focus)
You'd have to pick karthus your support and jungle early and then try to get a good lane for nasus. Or maybe picking wukong fast if wukong counters are good for nasus.
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melee ad's certainly don't do better than ranged in teamfights, maybe at very low level....
Ranged Ad's kite because if they let anyone get near them they get blown up, nonranged ad's have the same problem....but they cant kite. Watch any pro teamfight, the Ad's stay absolutely as far as they can from everything and attack the closest safe target, having no range makes that about twice as hard, especially against any team with a bit of coordination. The people Ads can usually fire at for most of a teamfight are the tanks and initiators who are up front, you really dont want to walk up and start hitting these guys because they usually pack a ton of CC. Being ranged allows you do dps on something, whereas when you are melee you are just gonna get totally zoned out of the fight by an alistar or something just blocking you, meanwhile their ad is putting out damage .
Then there is the problem of the other AD carry. Ad's kill each other super fast especially later in the game, A melee can usually outdual a ranged, but if you eat one CC before you close the gap to them, you are just dead, and in a teamfight you can bet there will be plenty of CC for peel.
So you can see there are a lot of barriers to running an melee Ad comp, its not just towers. (although thats a big one too).
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On October 29 2012 21:33 Slayer91 wrote:
lol @ melee "carries" doing better in teamfights because they "don't have to kite".
The reason the RANGED guys have to kite is because they get focused, you think melees guys have any chance to do damage in that situation?
Melee "carries" just end up having to be built the same as bruisers and played the same way, where you always are looking for an opportunity to kill their squishies, where the carry role tends to focus tanks. The reason is that melee carries focusing tanks are going to be in range of the tanks squishes so they just get focused harder when at least if you focus squishies they have to deal with you can can't free DPS.
I think no ranged AD comps with a bruiser bottom with more brisers/tanks mid top and jungle can probably work if you guise it somehow so they can't just pick mass AoE and cc.
The main issue is that gapclosers are self serving and get countered by CC while CC tends to not gap close or have a lot of range so you need the perfect balance of gap closers and CC that can't get countered out by their teams CC and escape skills. You don't need to be able to kill their AD you just need to create large enough threat zone that they can't do enough damage to win the teamfights if you jump on other people.
Maybe an assassin in that comp would work, they tend to win or lose teamfights before the AD even has a say.
I think the CC issue is the biggest one here and assassin is a good hint. but first let us talk about the bruiser/melee carry issue again: there are bruisers and bruisers. alot of bruisers have tank steroids and disables/knockups while others attack steroids. iam not saying you build what I want to call a melee carry exactly like a ranged carry. ranged carries ahve boots+4damage items+1defense item. you switch one damage item into a defense item and prolly still do more damage with yi/fiora.
when you have 2 mages +1 bruiser or 2 bruisers and 1 mage and build one melee carry then you can play him like a ranged ad carry: stay in a safe position until the fight is initiated. you don't need as much defense in that role because you are the first position farmer and have sick steroids to back that up while the others do the hard work until hit the right opportunitiy to kill people.
thats why I like you mention assassins. assassins are in a sense melee carries. kat/talon/akali do exactly that thing: they stay out of trouble and pick their targets. I don't care if you say bruisers with attack steroids or assassins or melee carries as long as we can agree on that champ being built offensively with a minimum of defense.
the reasons that champ does not have to kite relates exactly to what you said about CC and gapclosers/disengage: if you can jump a high prio squishy target you don't have to kite, because you kill. that is easyer said than done though.
m5 played a strategy in s2 championships with eve as their primary carry, having xin as their solo laner and lee as their jungler. they had enough knockbacks to transform teamfights into weird skirmishes where eve was able to pick the most isolated targets off. this was amazing and worked even after being significantly behind in farm on almost all lanes. their opponents (i think it was ig) had tons of CC, gapclosers and disengage but could not cope with the massive knockback into burst tactics because an eve just deals way too much damage in skirmishy situations. even with shen and yorick as the bruisers for their opponents
their botlane wasn't even significant in that game so we can imagine the same thing working with 2 bruisers 1 ap carry and 1 assassins if you insist on naming it that way. Besides lee and xin there are quite a bunch of champions who can mess up mid-lategame engagements like this, such as gragas, janna, blitz, ali, wukong, jarvan, anivia etc. anything that helps you isolate champs or split up teams in some way works with that and you need at least 2 of them.
some of the steroidish bruisers / assassins have a good kit to create a significant threatzone you mentioned like fiora can jump on ranged carries with her ult etc.
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There might be merit in a 4 protect 1 melee carry comp with Yorick, Zilean, Lulu or cc support (Leona/Alistar), Amumu and the melee carry being something like Tryndamere.
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When I play a melee champ, I pretty much always go 21 defensive masteries. The ones who can get away with 21 offensive masteries play more like assassins. Fiora isn't going to be in the front peeling and setting up like a Chogath or Shen. Fiora is going to try to find an opportunity to assassinate a squishy. I feel the thing that makes playing a Melee as the adc dangerous is in team fights, you're going to be in range of everything if you're doing damage, while ranged carries sit behind their bruisers and just poke everything with auto attacks, the melee carry has to stand on top of the bruisers and become easy targets for AOE spells.
On October 29 2012 22:22 1ntrigue wrote:
There might be merit in a 4 protect 1 melee carry comp with Yorick, Zilean, Lulu or cc support (Leona/Alistar), Amumu and the melee carry being something like Tryndamere.
I did play a game once with Tryn, Anivia, Sona, Soraka, and Janna. The enemy team surrendered at 20 when they realized Anivia and Tryn had Mejai's and Sword of the Occult, and neither one of them was going to die.
Tryn was in the jungle and would steal farm from the top lane Sona.
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holy cow, just watched dyrus stream cause bored.
that guy must have gained like 25kg since he moved away from home. thats so sad.
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The problem with melee carries in LoL as opposed to DOTA2 is that they have no way to peel for themselves.
Naga Siren's song, Dragon Knight's stun, Faceless Void's snares...there's nothing like that in League.
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The thing is that in LoL I'm a lot more scared of a 6 item Trist in a team fight than a 6 item Yi. You'll most likely die before you even reach the Trist while the Yi will at least be attackable. As a result a melee carry in LoL will always be weaker than a ranged carry because of itemization issues and kit limitations which will never overcome the range disadvantage (especially with exhaust in play).
In dota a lot of melee carries actually build a tanky item first and have passives which make them super hard to kill. This is on top of long range blinks up the wazoo and having access to an anti-cc item that can't be countered by waiting 0.1 seconds and applying another CC.
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All these reasonable arguments against melee carries makes me wonder: why do they work in dota?
Edit: I type too slow 
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Riot does try to give melee carries the skills they need to survive being in the middle of it all (trynd's endless rage, fiora's untargetability during ult) but these are simply not sufficient in any reasonable game. The issue is that melee carries are already very strong in beginner games and any buff to them that makes them viable in a competitive game would have to be really carefully done.
Phreak did mention new itemization helping melee carries a bit I think, so that's something to look forward to.
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I wish Riot put in some variant of BKB...
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On October 29 2012 23:15 JeosAdn wrote:
All these reasonable arguments against melee carries makes me wonder: why do they work in dota?
BKB basically. Plus there isn't anything ubiquitous like Exhaust to mitigate their damage.
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On October 29 2012 23:10 phyvo wrote:
The thing is that in LoL I'm a lot more scared of a 6 item Trist in a team fight than a 6 item Yi. You'll most likely die before you even reach the Trist while the Yi will at least be attackable. As a result a melee carry in LoL will always be weaker than a ranged carry because of itemization issues and kit limitations which will never overcome the range disadvantage (especially with exhaust in play).
In dota a lot of melee carries actually build a tanky item first and have passives which make them super hard to kill. This is on top of long range blinks up the wazoo and having access to an anti-cc item that can't be countered by waiting 0.1 seconds and applying another CC.
Also, some of the more abusive melee carries (leroic(skeleton king?) comes to mind) are strength based. building strength gives hp AND damage for them. so they build damage and survivability at the same time. Seriously, fuck Leoric with HoT.
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United States23745 Posts
On October 29 2012 16:02 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 14:22 onlywonderboy wrote:On October 29 2012 13:58 HeroHenry wrote:
Anyone else think teemo is really good on the new treeline since his shrooms can act as ward? Yep, I rarely play a blind pick game where he's not on one of the teams. The paths are super narrow as well so stepping on his shrooms happens a lot. AP or Bruiser?
I see both regularly. AP is way more annoying wit the shrooms, but I find bruisers or AD/AP Teemos to have more of an impact because they can do alright damage in a team fight (by comparison anyway).
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On October 29 2012 23:15 JeosAdn wrote:
All these reasonable arguments against melee carries makes me wonder: why do they work in dota?
dota has completely op items for them :D
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On October 29 2012 23:15 JeosAdn wrote:All these reasonable arguments against melee carries makes me wonder: why do they work in dota? Edit: I type too slow
There's no AP or AD ratios on spells as far as I know, meaning burst is probably outscaled really hard and all mages are like supports endgame. Imagine trying to fight a fed jax who ignores cc who jumps your AD without 4 supports.
CC spells are massively long but there's an item that ignores CC for melee carries.
I'm guessing heroes power level is way more out of whack in terms of scaling in the same way CC spells are more insane than in LoL.
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On October 29 2012 22:44 LaNague wrote:
holy cow, just watched dyrus stream cause bored.
that guy must have gained like 25kg since he moved away from home. thats so sad.
How can you tell?
Just wondering.
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EPT
