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2602 Posts
On October 29 2012 23:24 Praetorial wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 22:44 LaNague wrote:
holy cow, just watched dyrus stream cause bored.
that guy must have gained like 25kg since he moved away from home. thats so sad. How can you tell? Just wondering.
He probabaly has a lot of female friends who take break-ups badly. Or a lot of male friends who are in longterm relationships. After a while you can simply estimate how much people have put on/have lost.
Edit: Look at chin, cheeks, shoulder contures. Do they appear to be slightly "bigger" or more "massive", taking up more space visually speaking. Also hands and around the eyes. You can only recognize weight gain/loss at the "classic" spots much later - belly, tighs, ass. The above are the more subtle cues.
Edit 2: Especially for men, you have to differentiate between muscle gain and getting fat. When gaining muscle, shoulders, arms, hands etc will become bigger, but at the same time chin/cheeks/eyes etc will stay the same or improve.
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in the other hand lol melee carries (sry for keeping this term) have a way more reasonable laneing phase which can be a serious problem for ranged ads, also the fact that there is tenacity + disables are way shorter in lol. the whole comparison is just weird and doesn't get us anywhere. I think if m5 can build a teamcomp around having a squishy eve hardcarrying after the whole team is behind (who is in a sense a melee carry) then we could move away from generalisations and start to talk about what could work and how it could work.
iam an ok support player so if anyone on euw wants to grind out some normals with that setup can add me so we can try this stuff out a bit->clickrush. apparently almost noone really has (recent) experience with this.
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United States47024 Posts
The other thing to keep in mind about melee carries in DotA is that there are many more alternative solutions in DotA to the question of "how do I siege high ground towers without a ranged physical damage dealer?" In particular on casters and supports, there are a lot of alternative options for tower pushing that make up for not having a ranged hero to hit the tower.
A melee carry-based comp in LoL still hits that barrier where they have a hard time sieging base towers because the melee carry can't just go and hit the tower like a ranged carry can. While this isn't insurmountable, the fact that you have to leverage a much larger lead to actually force your way into the base (via split-pushing, or slowly farming it out with global objective gold) means that there's potential possibilities for a turnaround when a team is content to farm it out in their base against you.
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Btw Yango, why do you talk about high ground towers? I mean I recall there being high ground in DotA (the outer mid and safe lane towers are on high ground because of the river iirc), but since LoL has no such concept I don't understand what you mean when you do it. Is it to refer to the defender's advantage?
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United States47024 Posts
On October 29 2012 23:51 Alaric wrote:
Btw Yango, why do you talk about high ground towers? I mean I recall there being high ground in DotA (the outer mid and safe lane towers are on high ground because of the river iirc), but since LoL has no such concept I don't understand what you mean when you do it. Is it to refer to the defender's advantage?
"High ground" just refers to the towers inside the base. Even though there's no actual high ground mechanic in LoL, I figure that since you're still going up a ramp to get into the enemy base, the term is still appropriate.
On October 29 2012 23:10 phyvo wrote:
The thing is that in LoL I'm a lot more scared of a 6 item Trist in a team fight than a 6 item Yi. You'll most likely die before you even reach the Trist while the Yi will at least be attackable. As a result a melee carry in LoL will always be weaker than a ranged carry because of itemization issues and kit limitations which will never overcome the range disadvantage (especially with exhaust in play).
In dota a lot of melee carries actually build a tanky item first and have passives which make them super hard to kill. This is on top of long range blinks up the wazoo and having access to an anti-cc item that can't be countered by waiting 0.1 seconds and applying another CC.
The itemization issue is actually twofold, because not only does BKB smooth out damage-dealing/itemization for melees, but it also keeps ranged carries honest in how they itemize. You pretty much can't play 100% glass cannon ranged in DotA the way you do in LoL, because the threat of an unpeelable BKB-ed threat means you need to itemize in a way that makes you more or less self-sufficient against those threats. Because of this, ranged carries have to itemize a similar mix of offense and defense as melee carries. As such, there's not a huge itemization disparity between ranged and melee as there exists in LoL.
Incidentally, I think the presence of crit and armor pen as additional multiplicative damage stats exacerbates this issue--ranged AD effectively can have 4 damage items endgame while melees can usually only get away with 2, which means they have basically double the gold value invested in damage stats. But because of how they get not just damage and attack speed, but also crit and armor pen as fully itemizable damage stats, their damage-dealing ability from having 4 damage items is vastly more that of the 2 damage item melee carry.
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i think there are way too many differences to compare melee carries in DotA with the possibility of melee carries in LoL.
towers being stronger/high ground mechanic, the nature of farming with the different jungle and TP scrolls, laning, itemization, longer stuns, blink dagger/force staff, harder to kite in dota, etc.
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I've been playing with melee carries in normals for a while now. We run Blitzistar down bottom and Trynd jungle. With both Blitz and Ali down bottom their adc is not getting any creeps and we end up with more than enough CC to keep Trynd alive in teamfights. It's very fun but impossible in ranked as Blitz and Ali are 100% banned at my elo 
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
to oversimplify why melee AD carries don't work in theory, you can always be in such a formation that whenever an enemy melee can attack 1 person they can be attacked by 5 people (ignoring pulls, which is like, Blitzcrank Skarner and Nautilus). Usually you don't do such a weird thing because melee things aren't high focus targets. If melee AD works for you it's probably because enemy team doesn't really know how to play against it.
Sieging towers is probably less of a concern than teamfights (lategame, ranged casters deal massive dmg to turrets as well, except for Ryze hahaha)
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SOLUTION TO PUSH PROBLEM: PROMOTE
Other solution is to run a super strong poker in mid. My brother still plays AP Kog mid (been doing it since Kog came out huehue) and his range + tower damage is basically how we take towers when we can't dive them.
Always run Cleanse on your melee carry. Trynd actually hit total FotM for a while (along with Kat and Nunu) when cleanse got buffed to be 2 sec immunity to CC.
Fiora is excellent for dive comps, by the way.
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or use olaf or alistar as ur melee ADC ^^
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olaf isn't even an ad carry you just build full tank and do more damage than most by just spamming q and e.
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Solution to melee champions not being able to effectively hit towers: play Nasus or Wukong.
Those two absolutely destroy towers. Auto+Q then run after eating some cc/damage and not dying imo.
(Only being slightly facetious...I could see it working.)
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On October 30 2012 00:59 Slayer91 wrote:
olaf isn't even an ad carry you just build full tank and do more damage than most by just spamming q and e.
well there's no particular reason why you can't build olaf like an adc
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But ali with triforce + ghostblade is beastly. :D
Also, with the coming of Sandy I have one thing to say to our northern TLers: Ya'll be fucked. gg hurricane
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except the whole "don't want to be squishy on a melee champion" which is the whole debate
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On October 29 2012 23:52 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 23:51 Alaric wrote:
Btw Yango, why do you talk about high ground towers? I mean I recall there being high ground in DotA (the outer mid and safe lane towers are on high ground because of the river iirc), but since LoL has no such concept I don't understand what you mean when you do it. Is it to refer to the defender's advantage? "High ground" just refers to the towers inside the base. Even though there's no actual high ground mechanic in LoL, I figure that since you're still going up a ramp to get into the enemy base, the term is still appropriate. Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 23:10 phyvo wrote:
The thing is that in LoL I'm a lot more scared of a 6 item Trist in a team fight than a 6 item Yi. You'll most likely die before you even reach the Trist while the Yi will at least be attackable. As a result a melee carry in LoL will always be weaker than a ranged carry because of itemization issues and kit limitations which will never overcome the range disadvantage (especially with exhaust in play).
In dota a lot of melee carries actually build a tanky item first and have passives which make them super hard to kill. This is on top of long range blinks up the wazoo and having access to an anti-cc item that can't be countered by waiting 0.1 seconds and applying another CC. The itemization issue is actually twofold, because not only does BKB smooth out damage-dealing/itemization for melees, but it also keeps ranged carries honest in how they itemize. You pretty much can't play 100% glass cannon ranged in DotA the way you do in LoL, because the threat of an unpeelable BKB-ed threat means you need to itemize in a way that makes you more or less self-sufficient against those threats. Because of this, ranged carries have to itemize a similar mix of offense and defense as melee carries. As such, there's not a huge itemization disparity between ranged and melee as there exists in LoL. Incidentally, I think the presence of crit and armor pen as additional multiplicative damage stats exacerbates this issue--ranged AD effectively can have 4 damage items endgame while melees can usually only get away with 2, which means they have basically double the gold value invested in damage stats. But because of how they get not just damage and attack speed, but also crit and armor pen as fully itemizable damage stats, their damage-dealing ability from having 4 damage items is vastly more that of the 2 damage item melee carry.
Or run Blitzstar bot, and there you have two champions that break up sieges quite well. If they don't allow Blitz to get in grab range, Ali takes tower aggro with ult popped, problem solved?
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If you want it that way, Talon is even more brutal than Wukong against towers. His escapes aren't as good (though his ult has a lower cooldown, he doesn't have Decoy nor Wu's passive). Well I guess you could go jungle Nasus, Wukong top, Talon mid and something like Soraka + Cass/Brand/Karthus bot and just splitpush all day and solo towers. 
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On October 30 2012 01:09 BlackPaladin wrote:
But ali with triforce + ghostblade is beastly. :D
Also, with the coming of Sandy I have one thing to say to our northern TLers: Ya'll be fucked. gg hurricane
it isn't really bad in Boston right now. I can still grind league games :3
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On October 30 2012 01:09 BlackPaladin wrote:
But ali with triforce + ghostblade is beastly. :D
Moooooooooooohamad Ali
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United States15536 Posts
On October 30 2012 01:30 Conversion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 01:09 BlackPaladin wrote:
But ali with triforce + ghostblade is beastly. :D
Also, with the coming of Sandy I have one thing to say to our northern TLers: Ya'll be fucked. gg hurricane it isn't really bad in Boston right now. I can still grind league games :3
Yeah, not too bad just yet.
All the same: GET JANNA'D.
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EPT
