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On October 30 2012 02:26 jacosajh wrote:
One thing I like to do when a jungler comes to gank and I know he's there is to pretend like I don't know he's there (I never understand people who do skill shots into the bush as a big "F U I know you're there"). If he sticks around for a bit, it won't be too long before he's 1 or 2 levels behind
one of my favorite things to do, especially in mid, is to play juuuuust out of initiation range so that the jungler thinks that an opportunity might open up and they chill for a long time thinking that you'll make that mistake but in reality you're playing them hard.
i also like randomly playing aggressive, for example, purposely missing last hits at tower and running at the enemy as if a gank were set up... you can get a good read on how they react and you can use it for future ganks.
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Playing dumb really effective. Too bad many people can't do it. They prematurely ejaculate instead.
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On October 30 2012 02:55 Requizen wrote:
That said, never played him, so the kit could just not be as good as I'm reading.
His kit doesn't do any damage if you are building AD. His E has a great steroid, but his Q and W are pretty meh and mostly for utility (same with ult). He's basically the melee version of say, Tristana, but with outrageous mana costs. So you are extremely farm/item dependent in a game where the dominant top laners do absurd damage with no items (Darius, Olaf, Irelia true damage; Jayce %HP damage; Jax kills people with a lamp post; etc). So while others are using their kit for damage and building survivability, Sion has to build damage and hope his kid provides enough survivability. You just CC/ignite/executioner's his ult and then he dies.
Compare to Mundo, who gets a similar damage steroid on E and "extra HP" on his ult (lifesteal = regen, except when you can't AA) but also does % HP with Q and a huge amount of AoE on W, not to mention the CC reduction which helps your with your ult way more than the huge CD Sion shield does for his ult.
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The difference in this issue doesn't lie in any of the more cosmetic thing that people have described, but something far more basic.
The reason melee carries work in DotA and not LoL lies in two fundamental differences in game design, the first is the lack of mobility and the relatively even farm allocation in LoL. Because its impossible to farm more than 1 lane effectively, a team will never be able to devote more than around 1/3 of their farm to the main carry, and champions in lol often lack the true scaling off of skills and levels that DotA melee carries often have. Because of this, your ranged ADs aren't "carries" in the DotA sense of the term, but only the DPS component of the hero because the LoL farm allocation simply does not allow for a champion to both have the survivability and dps necessary to "carry".
The second is a engine and design choice. The way every movement skill works and the very fact that there is no turnspeed in LoL makes the gap between ranged right click and melee right click far more prevalent in LoL. The fact that if there's a melee hero charging you (think the DotA equivalent of say, Udyr), a ranged hero would generally be unable to get off any hits while running away wheras a ranged champion usually has both an escape and the ability to turn around and hit melee champions continuously, not to mention the existence of things like flash and cleanse for no extra cost.
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I know it's almost a necessity in terms of evaluation and having a point of comparison and empirical data, but is anyone else really sick of all the DotA v LoL comparison discussion?
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On October 30 2012 02:48 xes wrote:
But if you want a game where all the midgame items are dope, and the lategame items are only bought because you ran out of slots, why not just play DotA?
One of my biggest concerns is that they'll skip over some really good ideas during the overhaul because they'd be viewed as too similar to dota 2. 
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On October 30 2012 03:08 WaveofShadow wrote:
I know it's almost a necessity in terms of evaluation and having a point of comparison and empirical data, but is anyone else really sick of all the DotA v LoL comparison discussion?
Me, but at least the discussion here is intelligent and not OMG DOTA SO BAD NO SKILL GAME LOLZ
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On October 30 2012 03:08 WaveofShadow wrote:
I know it's almost a necessity in terms of evaluation and having a point of comparison and empirical data, but is anyone else really sick of all the DotA v LoL comparison discussion?
When the comparisons are used as discussion material for possible ways to improve LoL, I don't mind them at all.
DotA and LoL are similar games, and the knowledge base that exists for DotA is huge. Why wouldn't LoL look at how DotA solved something for inspiration?
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Just to get my last point on melee vs ranged AD carry, the thing is, ranged AD steroids are not that much worse than melee.
Let's compare Master Yi vs Vayne, gonna use both max level for simplicity
Vayne does 60+8% of max HP true dmg per 3 shots, against a 2000 HP target that's 73 true damage per hit (!!!!!)
She also has 55 bonus AD from her ultimate. This is difficult to calculate because of the casting animation, but she has Tumble that increases dmg of her next shot by 50% on 2 second cooldown (!!)
So even if we ignore her Tumble against 2K hp target that is 73 true dmg + 55 AD steroids.
Master Yi gets 70 AD (105 AD after he gets a kill), 80% attack speed and +14% total damage passive.
The damage per hit steroids of Vayne and Yi are probably very similiar in terms of damage. So what would you prefer, 80% attack speed steroid or a 425 range "steroid", the latter of which is avaliable from level1 and doesn't need to be leveled?
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On October 30 2012 02:26 jacosajh wrote:
One thing I like to do when a jungler comes to gank and I know he's there is to pretend like I don't know he's there (I never understand people who do skill shots into the bush as a big "F U I know you're there"). If he sticks around for a bit, it won't be too long before he's 1 or 2 levels behind
the reason a lot of ppl toss skillshots in there is because the simple presence of the jungler can affect ease of farm. I think many times (in solo queue, where the likelihood of getting a countergank or taking advantage of camping is nonexistent) the better play is to just get the jungler out of there so you don't lose cs opportunities longer than you have to.
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vayne's range is so miniscule that having either of those characters would actually be pretty similar if vayne didnt have that amazing true damage that makes kiting tanks so easy. The main problem is while vayne has a very difficult time to lane bot, laning bot with master yi would be impossible lol. simply cant get that farm. So if you want a hyper carry melee, you need to put them in a solo where then you have 2 hyper carries which is usually a bad comp or jungle where they cannot get enough farm.
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Russian Federation798 Posts
I feel Nocturne does everything Yi does but better, so there isn't much of a niche for Yi to be picked, unless the enemy has only slows as CC.....
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How do you play the Orianna vs Katarina matchup? QEQW, R>Q>E>W and just shield yourself and auto?
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vayne's range is 550, that's pretty reasonable for an adc. For reference, teemo and sivir are 500, ezreal, corki, twitch and draven are 550 and varus is 575.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 30 2012 03:03 Kupon3ss wrote:
The reason melee carries work in DotA and not LoL lies in two fundamental differences in game design, the first is the lack of mobility and the relatively even farm allocation in LoL. Because its impossible to farm more than 1 lane effectively, a team will never be able to devote more than around 1/3 of their farm to the main carry, and champions in lol often lack the true scaling off of skills and levels that DotA melee carries often have. Because of this, your ranged ADs aren't "carries" in the DotA sense of the term, but only the DPS component of the hero because the LoL farm allocation simply does not allow for a champion to both have the survivability and dps necessary to "carry".
I don't think this is necessarily true though. The only real reason that the survivability afforded by partial survivability itemization is inadequate is because of the ability for both ranged casters and ranged physical damage dealers to build 100% glass cannon and get away with it due to the fact that there's no effective itemization option for the opposition to bypass disables and punish them for it.
If both melee and ranged heroes were forced to build something like Wit's+Triforce+additional defensive item (the logical equivalent of a BKB+Manta+Bfly core for an agility carry), then there's no reason to expect that survivability and DPS would both feel inadequate.
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United States9794 Posts
You can still have melee carries in 2v1 lanes. You won't have a ranged ad so your sieging may be a bit weaker and you'll have to play teamfights very carefully but hey you'll get the farm you need.
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Doesn't Vayne 550 range? The wiki says so.
And I don't mind drawing parallels between LoL and DotA as long as it uses the material and reflects on their design difference, and not a simple (and unproductive) "this one or that one is better because".
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On October 30 2012 03:40 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 03:03 Kupon3ss wrote:
The reason melee carries work in DotA and not LoL lies in two fundamental differences in game design, the first is the lack of mobility and the relatively even farm allocation in LoL. Because its impossible to farm more than 1 lane effectively, a team will never be able to devote more than around 1/3 of their farm to the main carry, and champions in lol often lack the true scaling off of skills and levels that DotA melee carries often have. Because of this, your ranged ADs aren't "carries" in the DotA sense of the term, but only the DPS component of the hero because the LoL farm allocation simply does not allow for a champion to both have the survivability and dps necessary to "carry".
I don't think this is necessarily true though. The only real reason that the survivability afforded by partial survivability itemization is inadequate is because of the ability for both ranged casters and ranged physical damage dealers to build 100% glass cannon and get away with it due to the fact that there's no effective itemization option for the opposition to bypass disables and punish them for it. If both melee and ranged heroes were forced to build something like Wit's+Triforce+additional defensive item (the logical equivalent of a BKB+Manta+Bfly core for an agility carry), then there's no reason to expect that survivability and DPS would both feel inadequate.
but that's inefficient in LoL due to the second point, since you have sash/cleanse for ccs, an escape on most ranged ADs, and flash, if your carry went wits + triforce and the other guy went PD + IE, your dps becomes far inferior and is simply outclassed for marginally more survivability.
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On October 30 2012 02:55 Craton wrote:
I hope none of them become strong picks. They're not even remotely fun to play against.
Isn't this the real problem with Melle "carries"? Once they are farmed/fed they will right click and spam abilities, then before you know it your carries are dead and hes chuncking your Olaf for 1/10 his HP each hit.
Thats why Yi and Trynd are lvl 5 terrors, because no one knows you need to just crush them early then zone zone zone.
So a melle carry really is an assasin because they can 100-0 you squishies in a few seconds, but then they also would have follow up. That is part of the reason that everyone hates Rengar.
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EPT
